Being forced to use outdated or bottom-tier RNG equipment in new high level game modes is not "difficulty"

[Kaiga]

1 hour ago, RichardKam said:

The point is, all weapons, if mod and done correctly, should be able to handle SP contents. And the new game mode is not even SP for void sake.

Correct, it's about 300 levels higher with new debuffs.

 

1 hour ago, RichardKam said:

Most weapons may not be sufficient for SP endless, that's why in Duviri SP circuit it is offset by decrees.

Which do not exist in this new mode, with even less choice in loadout
 

1 hour ago, RichardKam said:

btw here is your acrid build if you are interested.

Yes, this is a video of a wartuber build against base steel path corpus. How is this even remotely representative of what we're talking about

[schilds]

I see this thread is still going.

Come the 27th of March, a whole bunch of people will look back at this thread and ask themselves why they got so worked up ("muh freedumbs") over an un-exciting arcane drop.

Will the game mode be fun, challenging or well designed? Maybe, maybe not. That will depend on the *in mission gameplay* (that we currently know nothing about) more than the *optional* rng restrictions (which are merely a starting point).

[johnno23]

I have recently been running the SP circuit and the rng aspect can be annoying at times with regard to weapons and which frame i pick from.

However I personally have had a lot of fun in the missions as due to the situation I am now having to use weapons that I previously levelled to 30 for my points and then ignored. In all honesty whilst some missions I fail miserably in others I am having so much fun as many weapons I had never truly explored after reaching the mastery level 30 and subsequently ignoring are actually far better than i had realized. i am speaking from the viewpoint of joining Warframe running quests levelling up and progressing where each new frame new weapon was simply levelled and move on. Yes I had my favorites until i had something new or what i felt was better but in that process I often overlooked many of the synergies that exist between a frame and a particular weapon. Running the Circuit has for me at least been enjoyable overall so the idea that I am forced to use a frame or weapons at what i can call random is quite the experience and I look forward to new content that has a similar approach. I can understand it is not to everyone's taste but the game is large enough to simply do what one enjoys and ignore entire sections of alternative gameplay.

[sunderthefirmament]

1 hour ago, schilds said:

I see this thread is still going.

Come the 27th of March, a whole bunch of people will look back at this thread and ask themselves why they got so worked up ("muh freedumbs") over an un-exciting arcane drop.

Will the game mode be fun, challenging or well designed? Maybe, maybe not. That will depend on the *in mission gameplay* (that we currently know nothing about) more than the *optional* rng restrictions (which are merely a starting point).

I have a feeling DE will introduce a juicy new (power creep) legendary arcane or two if they aren’t seeing the engagement they want in this challenge mode. As it stands, if the only reason to engage with the max tier of difficulty here is for a legendary arcane, I don’t see myself doing that. I prefer the shards, and if maxing out my “research points” or whatever means an arcane instead of a shard*, I won’t bother.  The legendary melee arcanes are way too niche for that.
 

I also think DE might be kicking themselves for making Melee Influence a gold and not a legendary. 
 

 

*If I’m wrong on this, and max difficulty means an arcane PLUS a normal reward (shard, adapter, etc.), then please correct me. I haven’t been able to find the answer to this in any devstream recaps. 

[schilds]

Having gone over it a few times, the way it's described makes it sound like an additional reward that is a guaranteed legendary, rather than an existing reward being promoted to a guaranteed legendary. In that case it won't replace the chance for a shard.

Either way, it also looks like rng legendaries are in the lower tier rewards and we can complete the arcane sets without the highest restrictions. The guaranteed one lets you complete your set faster or farm more for trading.

[SneakyErvin]

22 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

The worm enemy we got is a pretty neat example of this. 

It's a threat to your energy, but at the same time the range attack is telegraphed and the close range attack has a tell, I wish it had a more obvious Aura but that's another issue with enemy clarity as a whole. 

And best of all, unlike EVERY OTHER ENEMY IN THE GAME, sans Duviri Daxes, you, the player, can actually influence their super attacks, by either going in close or making the distance and keeping them at a mid range distance. And it's due to player actions whether it does one or the other and you can cut them short by, playing the game, instead of just waiting it out or overloading with DPS. 

Sure I have SOME issues with their durability and Status Cleanse, but that's just me grumbling at yet another Status resistant enemy than anything else.

Yeah the worm is good design. You can circumvent the whole status and durability thing by prioritizing it the moment you spot it. Sucks if it sneaks close and does the AoE at which point it will become more duable and status immune.

13 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

The issue here is the player base would explode on the forums about being "annoyed" at the tougher enemies, using every talking point possible as the reasoning: too bullet spongy, to hard to hit the weak point, why must I use magnetic damage, why must I use my operator amp, why damage attenuation, why this and I don't want to do that. We've all seen these patterns before and nothing DE does is going to change that. 

I think the solution is for DE to just keep going forward as they were. There are just too many players, of too many genres of gaming, with way too many emotional states, and at too many different levels of play in this game for any harder type of play or any restrictions based gameplay to go unscathed.

Fortunately, DE is actually doing a terrific job of trying ideas and players are coming up with great ideas for DE to try. As long as that's the preferred path, (instead of the insults), then I say let's enjoy and try to stay within the reasonable bounds.

They can do it for new modes, or add al alternate "path" to both SC and SP for instance. No need for anyone to complain then. Those players can ignore the new mode, and for an alternate SC or SP path they can just do the old. The new paths would just have more loot, like add elite units and give those paths the scaling fissure reward unlocks aswell. With elite versions of say an eximus dropping two times their natural loot aswell.

13 hours ago, RichardKam said:

I was using Eidolon as an example to illustrate why "weakpoint mobs and units with specific defenses" is not a challenging content.

In WitW update, DE did exactly the same. Weakpoint mobs, making all allies around it extremely resistant to anything, and it is flying and spinning. Is it particularly challenging? Even in netracell they are not.

Again, the proposition "it is not possible to make any challenging content without arsenal restriction" is not proven to be false. The reason being our arsenal is so diverse and powerful that it is mathematically impossible to do so. It will very likely be the trend in the foreseeable future.

But they were challenging at release, that is the whole need and purpose. Nothing needs/should last forever in a live service type game, it should eventually be left behind due to progress.

Those mobs are horrible examples. They are 3 huge body parts tied together. A weakpoint should be a small part of a body in comparison to the total size. The second issue is that the floaters are weak and provide a trival buff to their allies, ontop of that those allies are weak in their own sense. I mean the infested used to be the laughing stock of the game, but now we have the pebble people and tincans that are slightly worse. The only thing in all of the labs that pose the slightest threat are the Voidrig summons, and that is is you are totally oblivious/dead/drunk/stoned/asleep/alloftheabove.

And DE have proben that weakpoints work. Eidolons, Glassmaker, Thumpers and Mech along with some bosses. Mechs and Thumpers suffered/suffer from one thing though, they the weakpoints of ends up behind them. In the case of the mechs it was due to it being placed on their back and with thumpers it is because they constantly turn the lower body. Glassmaker had a small oopsie issues by having the weakpoints vulnerable to melee. But those are also things that can be fixed.

The game also has a wide range of buffs and debuffs that DE could turn into enemy abilities/auras. Why do we not suffer from weapon jamming through enemy debuffs? Why do most enemy auras not stack? There are several things available in the game that can be implemented to counter us without ever having to hard-limit our loadout choices. Other games do it, so no reason it cannot be done here when the issues are practically the same. This game also has the benefit of being able to use the weakpoint system since it is a shooter that allows us to aim with a reticle. Yet none of it is used really. It's like DE has a full toolbox but decide to go to the kitchen and grab a spoon to tighten a screw.

21 hours ago, Hexerin said:

The preview they showed makes it very clear that it's not cumulative, you either go all-in or you don't get the full payout.

No it doesnt. I guess you missed the part where each mission also grants research. So we really dont know if research will stack up or not. It is very possible you can reach and complete T4 without ever using any of the left hand options, you instead just run mission upon mission to stack the research to eventually reach and complete T4.

18 hours ago, Hexerin said:

They never stated what the specific rewards were, other than the guaranteed legendary arcane for maxing out the mode, so you're making some severe assumptions based on zero evidence with that.

They did though. If you find the UI shown to be the final then that clearly shows what the rewards will be and Reb also said 5 in total, with T4 granting the guaranteed arcane. So that means T1-3 rewards adapter and shards since that is what was shown in text (which you rely on for your own logic), with T4 granting the arcane, since the text only specified new rewards and Reb said guaranteed arcane.

However, we already know that all the tiers will have a chance at an arcane even if it wasnt shown or said, and we now know that there will be 6 rewards. So clearly there was enough time with even just a month left to change fundamental (read numbers) parts of the system. Which also applies to research need, as Pablo said, which in the end is just also numbers, so not something fundamental. Number for that matter can also be changes live on the fly in most cases to alter needs and drop rates etc.

[(PSN)rexis12]

Honestly if Warframe wants their weapons to be played by all and is confident to have a another RNG weapon system, then have the modding be 60/60 at base so that we can actually mod the weapons and see their 'potential'

God knows some weapons are absolute ass until you slap a Potato on them. Like even the sheer difference between a Castanah with and without the reactor is insane and I HATE IT. 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2024-03-21 at 3:59 PM, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Honestly if Warframe wants their weapons to be played by all and is confident to have a another RNG weapon system, then have the modding be 60/60 at base so that we can actually mod the weapons and see their 'potential'

God knows some weapons are absolute ass until you slap a Potato on them. Like even the sheer difference between a Castanah with and without the reactor is insane and I HATE IT. 

But that removes a critical income source to sustain the game. Neither DE nor the players could afford to have that as an option.

On 2024-03-21 at 3:03 PM, SneakyErvin said:

They can do it for new modes, or add al alternate "path" to both SC and SP for instance. No need for anyone to complain then. Those players can ignore the new mode, and for an alternate SC or SP path they can just do the old. The new paths would just have more loot, like add elite units and give those paths the scaling fissure reward unlocks aswell. With elite versions of say an eximus dropping two times their natural loot aswell

I think this is what this Neutracells, and SP in general, are already designed to be, so you're definitely aligned with DE with the Idea. The issue is that some players want to be able to partake in every mode AND keep it as easy as possible by not allowing compromises or restrictions. They want the old way and the new way you mentioned to be virtually the same way. 

Looking at some of the comments, the issue comes all the way back to the tired difficulty/challenge debate. Someone is always going to try to convince others that the game has some sort of design issue because *insert talking point here*. The reality is that DE is doing exactly what you mentioned, and it is working, so they should just stay the course and maintain the two path system: Normal star chart/SP star chart, Circuit/SP Circuit, Eidolon/Tridolon, standard Eyes/60 Eyes, etc. 

[RichardKam]

10小时前 , SneakyErvin 说:

But they were challenging at release, that is the whole need and purpose. Nothing needs/should last forever in a live service type game, it should eventually be left behind due to progress.

Those mobs are horrible examples. They are 3 huge body parts tied together. A weakpoint should be a small part of a body in comparison to the total size. The second issue is that the floaters are weak and provide a trival buff to their allies, ontop of that those allies are weak in their own sense. I mean the infested used to be the laughing stock of the game, but now we have the pebble people and tincans that are slightly worse. The only thing in all of the labs that pose the slightest threat are the Voidrig summons, and that is is you are totally oblivious/dead/drunk/stoned/asleep/alloftheabove.

And DE have proben that weakpoints work. Eidolons, Glassmaker, Thumpers and Mech along with some bosses. Mechs and Thumpers suffered/suffer from one thing though, they the weakpoints of ends up behind them. In the case of the mechs it was due to it being placed on their back and with thumpers it is because they constantly turn the lower body. Glassmaker had a small oopsie issues by having the weakpoints vulnerable to melee. But those are also things that can be fixed.

The game also has a wide range of buffs and debuffs that DE could turn into enemy abilities/auras. Why do we not suffer from weapon jamming through enemy debuffs? Why do most enemy auras not stack? There are several things available in the game that can be implemented to counter us without ever having to hard-limit our loadout choices. Other games do it, so no reason it cannot be done here when the issues are practically the same. This game also has the benefit of being able to use the weakpoint system since it is a shooter that allows us to aim with a reticle. Yet none of it is used really. It's like DE has a full toolbox but decide to go to the kitchen and grab a spoon to tighten a screw.

Eidolon was challenging for a few months only. Afterward, people trivialized the tridolon with a pre-made squad of volt harrow trinity and someone else (edit: was it Chroma?) It was challenging only because it was time-gated and people needed to speed run as many tridolon as possible.

The point is, we are so powercreep such that any mechanics, any challenges, do not pose a threat to us. All the weak point mechanic are a joke in front of a tanky frame like Yareli when I can just stand there picking out all the weak points one by one. All the stacking aura and DR and stuff can be steamrolled by kullervo 300% critical 12X heavy attack with collective curse. Even in the void the team of guardian eximus + nullifier + arctic eximus + heavy gunner is not particularly difficult. And I haven't brought out Revenant, perma invisible Loki, perma invisible Ivara with damage buff, gloom, temporal drag, magus lockdown, etc etc etc (btw I am not saying it is a bad thing).

What I am saying is that people should stop pretending it is possible to make challenging content without arsenal restriction and pretending they knew better and can do a better job than DE. No, what you thought was a good idea in providing challenge was not challenging in reality.

Edited March 22 by RichardKam

[-ShadowRadiance-]

22 hours ago, schilds said:

Will the game mode be fun, challenging or well designed? Maybe, maybe not. That will depend on the *in mission gameplay* (that we currently know nothing about) more than the *optional* rng restrictions (which are merely a starting point).

As long as there aint a "kill mobs WITHIN THE CIRCLE" as in current regular netracells which i dare say with a high smount of salt 40% of tenno is unable to comprehend and mistake for kill before they enter the circle! $^#%@%^ 

They can do what they want. 

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I think this is what this Neutracells, and SP in general, are already designed to be, so you're definitely aligned with DE with the Idea. The issue is that some players want to be able to partake in every mode AND keep it as easy as possible by not allowing compromises or restrictions. They want the old way and the new way you mentioned to be virtually the same way. 

Looking at some of the comments, the issue comes all the way back to the tired difficulty/challenge debate. Someone is always going to try to convince others that the game has some sort of design issue because *insert talking point here*. The reality is that DE is doing exactly what you mentioned, and it is working, so they should just stay the course and maintain the two path system: Normal star chart/SP star chart, Circuit/SP Circuit, Eidolon/Tridolon, standard Eyes/60 Eyes, etc. 

Overall yes, but not specifically what I mention. It's only level increases between those modes, which does not solve the problems of lacking engaging content. And even with Netracells being higher levels well above the norm, it isnt at a level high enough to really handle the power we've obtained over all these years. That is why DE needs to consider adding mechanics to the mobs that might requires us to slow down a bit, aim properly and even prioritize targets. In Netracells and SP for instance I slide through things, hack and chop it with my melee or aim somewhere at the mob with my gun to kill them. And mostly the things die in a slide or a hit or two, which kills another bunch of enemies close by aswell. And this is because they are just lumps of health.

11 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Eidolon was challenging for a few months only. Afterward, people trivialized the tridolon with a pre-made squad of volt harrow trinity and someone else (edit: was it Chroma?) It was challenging only because it was time-gated and people needed to speed run as many tridolon as possible.

The point is, we are so powercreep such that any mechanics, any challenges, do not pose a threat to us. All the weak point mechanic are a joke in front of a tanky frame like Yareli when I can just stand there picking out all the weak points one by one. All the stacking aura and DR and stuff can be steamrolled by kullervo 300% critical 12X heavy attack with collective curse. Even in the void the team of guardian eximus + nullifier + arctic eximus + heavy gunner is not particularly difficult. And I haven't brought out Revenant, perma invisible Loki, perma invisible Ivara with damage buff, gloom, temporal drag, magus lockdown, etc etc etc (btw I am not saying it is a bad thing).

What I am saying is that people should stop pretending it is possible to make challenging content without arsenal restriction and pretending they knew better and can do a better job than DE. No, what you thought was a good idea in providing challenge was not challenging in reality.

So premades resulted in trivializing something? Wow, what an unsuspected shocker! Of course that will eventually happen, which is fine, they were still challenging at release, that is the whole point. What you mention is just normal for games and new content. The problem with most WF content is that it isnt challenging even the day it is released. Atleast Eidolons managed to be.

But you are thinking of what it is like now, not how it could be. We dont have what I ask for in the game. Things for instance do not properly stack for enemies, they lack debuffs etc. You practically ignore what is actually said and use the current game as a basis for what a future game would be with the things mentioned added. All those things you see as issues could be solved by applying the correct debuffs and buffs to enemies. Scramble abilities that bring players out of stealth, nullification auras that add a chance to enemy bullets to dispell abilities (like Mesmer Skin etc). There are a multitude of affixes out there in the arpg world to take inspiration from, affixes that work well in games already to combat power creep, meta and so on. It would for instance be very hard for Kullervo to wipe out a massive amount of mobs if one of them suddenly makes them all immune to abilities through an aura, then if that mob also has a weakpoint it wont just be for him to teleport and prison shank it. It isnt like WF is a brand new genre defining game, it is a game among multiple others with a 30 year long past to look at and take inspiration from at this point. I mean DE have already implemented counters to some of the things you mention wouldnt be possible or worth it (not really sure which you imply), we can see that on the Fractured One, which counters stealth and defense buffs in different ways. No need for that to stay to only a boss. So the mechanics are there, they just need to be guarded aswell versus a farting Saryn or a cannon happy Zarr user.

It isnt pretending, it is knowing from experience. You talk as if you are under the impression WF is in some unique power creep dilemma. I also get the feeling you think that the weakpoint enemies must be hard to kill. No, they need to be hard enough to kill only so we dont wipe them out with passive splash damage or a tendril linking to them, they need to be hard enough to require us to stop and aim and prioritize them among the rest of the mobs. They dont need to be mini-bosses, just things that make it harder for us to wipe out their friends while they are up, so we take a moment to prioritize targets.

Ontop of such things DE could always add jailer mobs and similar aswell to screw us over in our other fast paced combat. Which like in other games would require us to build to avoid it, which would also mean we give up power for utility. Just that we are able to ignore knockdowns is an issue on it's own currently. Which is something DE should rethink imo. However, since people hate to lose what they have it is likely better that DE adds other CC effects that arent covered by knockback/knockdown immunities.

In the end WF is just another arpg, so no reason why the things cannot be solved without taking away our arsenal preferences. Deep wont be difficult, since it will just be Circuit lite because we will have access to both operator and companions aswell as certain trivializing Helminth options. In addition to that it will also all take place within the labs, so we'll face some of the most trivial mobs in very simple missions. Assassination and disruption are the only two to really consider, but those will also be instantly trivialized the moment we get to pick atleast just one free choice while maintaining research. All the other modes wont matter, since in a worst case scenario with the weapon/frame rolls you can still fall back on operator and pet and just make sure to bring Breach Surge on your frame to sync with them. But that would also require 12 bad rolls.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Overall yes, but not specifically what I mention. It's only level increases between those modes, which does not solve the problems of lacking engaging content. And even with Netracells being higher levels well above the norm, it isnt at a level high enough to really handle the power we've obtained over all these years. That is why DE needs to consider adding mechanics to the mobs that might requires us to slow down a bit, aim properly and even prioritize targets. In Netracells and SP for instance I slide through things, hack and chop it with my melee or aim somewhere at the mob with my gun to kill them. And mostly the things die in a slide or a hit or two, which kills another bunch of enemies close by aswell. And this is because they are just lumps of health.

So premades resulted in trivializing something? Wow, what an unsuspected shocker! Of course that will eventually happen, which is fine, they were still challenging at release, that is the whole point. What you mention is just normal for games and new content. The problem with most WF content is that it isnt challenging even the day it is released. Atleast Eidolons managed to be.

But you are thinking of what it is like now, not how it could be. We dont have what I ask for in the game. Things for instance do not properly stack for enemies, they lack debuffs etc. You practically ignore what is actually said and use the current game as a basis for what a future game would be with the things mentioned added. All those things you see as issues could be solved by applying the correct debuffs and buffs to enemies. Scramble abilities that bring players out of stealth, nullification auras that add a chance to enemy bullets to dispell abilities (like Mesmer Skin etc). There are a multitude of affixes out there in the arpg world to take inspiration from, affixes that work well in games already to combat power creep, meta and so on. It would for instance be very hard for Kullervo to wipe out a massive amount of mobs if one of them suddenly makes them all immune to abilities through an aura, then if that mob also has a weakpoint it wont just be for him to teleport and prison shank it. It isnt like WF is a brand new genre defining game, it is a game among multiple others with a 30 year long past to look at and take inspiration from at this point. I mean DE have already implemented counters to some of the things you mention wouldnt be possible or worth it (not really sure which you imply), we can see that on the Fractured One, which counters stealth and defense buffs in different ways. No need for that to stay to only a boss. So the mechanics are there, they just need to be guarded aswell versus a farting Saryn or a cannon happy Zarr user.

It isnt pretending, it is knowing from experience. You talk as if you are under the impression WF is in some unique power creep dilemma. I also get the feeling you think that the weakpoint enemies must be hard to kill. No, they need to be hard enough to kill only so we dont wipe them out with passive splash damage or a tendril linking to them, they need to be hard enough to require us to stop and aim and prioritize them among the rest of the mobs. They dont need to be mini-bosses, just things that make it harder for us to wipe out their friends while they are up, so we take a moment to prioritize targets.

Ontop of such things DE could always add jailer mobs and similar aswell to screw us over in our other fast paced combat. Which like in other games would require us to build to avoid it, which would also mean we give up power for utility. Just that we are able to ignore knockdowns is an issue on it's own currently. Which is something DE should rethink imo. However, since people hate to lose what they have it is likely better that DE adds other CC effects that arent covered by knockback/knockdown immunities.

In the end WF is just another arpg, so no reason why the things cannot be solved without taking away our arsenal preferences. Deep wont be difficult, since it will just be Circuit lite because we will have access to both operator and companions aswell as certain trivializing Helminth options. In addition to that it will also all take place within the labs, so we'll face some of the most trivial mobs in very simple missions. Assassination and disruption are the only two to really consider, but those will also be instantly trivialized the moment we get to pick atleast just one free choice while maintaining research. All the other modes wont matter, since in a worst case scenario with the weapon/frame rolls you can still fall back on operator and pet and just make sure to bring Breach Surge on your frame to sync with them. But that would also require 12 bad rolls.

Actually, all of the newly released content, that was designed to be more difficult, actually was proven to be so...to the majority of the player base. Forum "elite" don't count and should NEVER be counted. We share tips, tricks and builds as soon as one of us figures out the meta. We should know this thanks to the infamous amp numbers for Eidolon hunts. We constantly ruin our own experiences and then point to the devs for not making something challenging enough.

In contrast, we see many pub players, chats messages and the forum posters struggling with Eidolons, begging for Railjack taxis, hunting for SP builds, upset about common sense nerfs and changes, etc. All of this isn't a bad thing, but it should be used as indicators as to why DE balances the challenge and domination aspects of the game. A select few of us post about how easy the game is...and the names are SUPER common. Maybe 10-15 posters tops...out of millions of players and thousands of registered forum users. Meanwhile, a FLOOD of first time posters write about nerfs like Wukongs, void dash and the AOE changes. This easily tells us why DE's decisions not as bad as we portray.

[stoty]

I don't care about the difficulty, I  care about the game is fun or not . And care about how much time I need to spend in the mission.

Rouglelike  is interesting.

Rouglelike + warframe = duviri, is  terrible.

The higher the difficulty of the game, means the less solution can be selected. Roll dice properly, is interesting. For duviri this die,there is too much randomness.This idea is good, but the difficulty and randomness are out of balance. The key is the balance between task reward, difficulty, time and randomness.  I think , DE is looking for the balance,  but we players are suffering the pain ,more than fun.

[Slayer-.]

Having the same choices for crappy gear RNG, which I seem to get a lot in Circuit at least I know that after a few Decrees, things will get better.

90% at a guess of my arsenal is pimped out as I like to try all sorts of gear, yet DE keeps giving me crap picks in the Steel Path Circuit bar once in a while, so this new mode will be more of the same but without getting any help from decrees.

I'm sitting on the fence for now until I try it, the gameplay could be interesting once I get used to it.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Actually, all of the newly released content, that was designed to be more difficult, actually was proven to be so...to the majority of the player base. Forum "elite" don't count and should NEVER be counted. We share tips, tricks and builds as soon as one of us figures out the meta. We should know this thanks to the infamous amp numbers for Eidolon hunts. We constantly ruin our own experiences and then point to the devs for not making something challenging enough.

In contrast, we see many pub players, chats messages and the forum posters struggling with Eidolons, begging for Railjack taxis, hunting for SP builds, upset about common sense nerfs and changes, etc. All of this isn't a bad thing, but it should be used as indicators as to why DE balances the challenge and domination aspects of the game. A select few of us post about how easy the game is...and the names are SUPER common. Maybe 10-15 posters tops...out of millions of players and thousands of registered forum users. Meanwhile, a FLOOD of first time posters write about nerfs like Wukongs, void dash and the AOE changes. This easily tells us why DE's decisions not as bad as we portray.

Except it isnt about some "elite" at all. The content released is not difficult or challenging if the players do it with the equipment that is available to them from previous releases. So the content misses the mark that is in the design of the game, since it isnt designed well enough to support the power that the game has already awarded us. That some people jump into it and find it challenging and hard is an issue of how the game is set up with little to no barriers that seperates what you can and should do. Eidolons were special since they required things that still didnt have any actual progress tied to it from the past. But you can at the same time look at Angels and see how horribly balanced they are in comparison to the power that we gained access to from far earlier content.

That players complain and beg about taxis and help isnt something special to WF. That is in all online games with grouping options, be it MMOs or just multiplayer games with co-op and persistant progression. They dont want to spend the time it took for everyone else to get to and through the content, since they want to blast through it so they can get to the absolutely latest. Those arent the people a game should have content designed around, since those players already have years and years of content to engage with.

Also regarding the "We constantly ruin our own experience". It is hard to ruin something that isnt there to begin with. There are only a select few new content releases in WF that actually take an "ah-ha!" moment to find a "meta", since most other things are just run of the mill with no new mechanics. Archons, Cells, Circuit, SP, RJ or whatever else "regular" is figured out by not figuring anything out at all. Archons for instance werent challenging, they were just poorly balanced with a practically broken DR system. When that DR system was recently fixed there is no "meta" needed. That there was a "meta" in the first place that some had to figure out was simply an accident due to how the broken system worked. For me there was nothing to figure out since simple luck and chance resulted in me already using 2 out of the few weapons that were barely impacted by the system.

So WF really comes down to if you've done earlier content or not, if you have you can breeze through anyhting new that doesnt require specific new seperate progress. If you havent you can just piggyback on others while never learning or bothering to actually use what the rest of the game provides you, since you can just keep doing it. What I hope on with Deep is that it cant be played in co-op. Maybe some people will eventually learn that they need to do other parts of the game aswell so they can stand on their own two legs instead of constantly complaing that something is too hard when in reality it is easy if they've bothered with the rest of the game leading up to that content.

[Arniox]

On 2024-03-16 at 4:47 AM, Tukka said:

The majority of weapons now have a variant that is Steel Path viable, if you've built into it.

True. Although I haven't really gotten many yet. A lot of my old rivens and builds for older weapons are actually turning out perfect now cause of incarnon weapons.

Like, I have an insanely good riven for the dual toxocyst that I got ages ago. And now with the incarnons, it's insane

On 2024-03-16 at 4:47 AM, Tukka said:

I don't think it's a cop out given how the sheer power and myriad utility that's available to players when they have unfettered access to all builds. The design space is super constrained by this reality, so some hard limits on equipment selection are one of the few viable ways to reintroduce a substantial level of challenge. The other ways of creating challenge (like new modes that don't use traditional equipment loadouts at all, or a massive slate of nerfs) also tend to be unpopular.

Yes true... I am kindof excited not gonna lie, that I can really use my entire arsenal in this. A huge majority of all my weapons haven't been touched besides to reform for a very long time.

 

On 2024-03-16 at 5:31 PM, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I need to locate these non-mk1 (and stug) weapons then! I've used non rivened kunai in SP before as a clan joke...and it wrecked corpus units and the infested. Please give us a list of these weapons that can't handle level 60 enemies. I, honestly, can't find them.

my wording was exaggerated. Every weapon with a good build can handle the entire star map. It's when you get to SP that a few odd weapons here and there start to drop off.
Kunai are kinda crazy not gonna lie. Even the normal and mk1 variants.
 

I'd say maybe:
- Normal ballistica if you don't have a good build on it.
- Normal Cestra is similar
- Carmine Penta is eh. It struggles a bit in steel path, but I have a 9 forma build for it that makes it sufficient
- Daikyu is a bit weak compared to other bows. Especially in SP
- Cossowar feels a bit weak now days
- Cerata also feels a little weak

That's just a few that I can remember recently reformaring and not really liking

Keep in mind as well that I only recently came back after a very long break so have only 3 incarnon adapters installed atm. I'm sure once I get them all, all weapons will be good.

[-ShadowRadiance-]

On 2024-03-21 at 5:45 AM, Kaiga said:

Uh, no it is not? There's gear that performs efficiently against high level content and gear that doesn't, this is... i dunno, plainly obvious to anyone who plays? You cannot expect consistent performance between content that has vastly different use cases or power levels, you can't simply "master" the acrid into competing with the laetum, what in the world...

Heck id compare it to bringing a water squirt gun for kids to a proffessional gun shooting comptetition with live ammo.

[Trollocaustic]

Man this topic really sheds a light on the schism between the player base: the side which will avoid any semblance of a challenge in favor of minimum engagement (e.g. AFK builds) and those who get bored with the usual grind who seek challenges in the form of handicaps.

[SneakyErvin]

59 minutes ago, Trollocaustic said:

Man this topic really sheds a light on the schism between the player base: the side which will avoid any semblance of a challenge in favor of minimum engagement (e.g. AFK builds) and those who get bored with the usual grind who seek challenges in the form of handicaps.

It more sheds a light on the issue in DEs design approach. There really shouldnt be the gap we have between power and challenge, since it just means DE throws to much power into the game while not being able to create content to justify giving us that power. We shouldnt see the "afk builds" and players shouldnt need to handicap themselves if things were designed properly and not left rampant and chaotic for years.

[MrDugan]

People are going to make excuses for the system, no matter what comes out, but depending on how they go with this, it could be a disaster.  If it uses the same system that picks the bonus weapons for arbitrations or archons, or if it uses the Duviri randomizer, it's going to be garbage, and I'm going to ignore it and just run regular, improved netracells.  If it picks from gear you own, I'm going to hate it even more.  Because the randomizer and its garbage algorithm basically forced players like me to re-fabricate trash so that we wouldn't only get trash offered to us by the randomizer, because it's guaranteed to give you things you don't own.  If this new system bases selection on owned gear, then some of you will be fine, since a lot of this community keeps like 2 loadout's worth of stuff in their inventory.  I will be screwed.  Even if it bases it on things you have investment in, I will get the short end of the stick.  Because I want to drive OP's point home about gear being outdated.

I have 7 friggin forma on the Stug.  I have 5 on Acrid.  I had a half dozen on the Torid before the Torid had an incarnon and was good.  I have nearly 1400 forma applied and own literally every single weapon that the randomizer can drop me, and I'm in the process of putting a full build, forma required or not, on every single weapon.  I'm running NW again literally just for catalysts because of this.  There aren't going to be decrees in Deep Arcamedia to save you from the completely irredeemable stats on some of these weapons.  You might not remember how bad some of these are, but I do.  That's half the reason I hate the randomizer.  It has people out here defending things like Dual Skana because stacking decrees let them run the table on SP enemies.  You think you're going to run a SP level Netracell, 3 missions no break, with negative modifiers with a Kama, a Bolto and an Attica?  Do most of you even remember those weapons exist?  There's a single Bolto out there, no Prime variant, no incarnon form, with 16%CC and 2.2% status.  Not 22.  2-POINT-2.  It has 64 base damage and almost all of it is puncture.  Maybe it won't be that dumpster fire of a weapon.  Maybe the Viper.  Maybe the Aklato.  Maybe you'll get Dual Skana instead of a single Kama.  Those are some super juicy stats.  5%CC and 16% status on weapons with 0.83 attack speed and low damage.  It's easy to forget some of this crap exists when there's literally hundreds of weapons in the game.  But that's the problem with mechanics like this and the randomizer.  There's nearly 400 total weapons you have to own to have everything that the randomizer is capable of offering you, since it can't offer weaker variants of things.  Should players be expected to own all of those weapons, and own all those RMC inventory slots and put in all the time, effort and resources necessary to put a full build on nearly 400 weapons just so a randomizer with a garbage algorithm can't drop them completely useless garbage?  What happens when you don't have any of the gear that Deep Arcamedia offers you?  You just don't get to sign up for that extra loot?  

The randomizer has me and kind of DE stuck in a rough spot.  If they design the new mode to offer all gear, everyone is screwed, and we're right back to doing the randomizer crap again.  If it only offers things you own, then people like me are screwed, and I'm caught between basing my inventory on not getting crapped on when I run for incarnons and arcanes, or not getting crapped on for the new mode.

The only silver lining to this is, at least as of the info we have now, the new mode is only supposed to be for RNG mitigation, which means there's nothing unique that drops there, which means I can ignore it.  That, and the fact that I might get to tell a bunch of defenders "I told you so" when they have to run a SP level triple Netracell with a Viper and no decrees.  Because literally anyone arguing with the OP that the arsenal isn't full of outdated trash is beyond ignorant.

 

On 2024-03-21 at 4:45 AM, Kaiga said:

Uh, no it is not? There's gear that performs efficiently against high level content and gear that doesn't, this is... i dunno, plainly obvious to anyone who plays? You cannot expect consistent performance between content that has vastly different use cases or power levels, you can't simply "master" the acrid into competing with the laetum, what in the world...

I have 5 forma and a usable, but not perfect riven on the Acrid.  And I fully agree with you, because I cannot make it function in the level of content that it's about to get offered up in.  It does not have the stats.  No usable crit or status.  It only does Toxin damage.  It auto procs toxin on hit, regardless of status, but also regardless of what else you've modded it for.  But because of the lackluster damage and trash stats, even min/maxing it for those toxin procs with every toxin mod available, and as much raw damage and multishot as I can put on it, it doesn't measure up to even the lowest of the mid-level gear.  Under completely ideal circumstances, with simulacrum enemies with AI turned off, getting nothing but clean headshots against stationary targets, it barely kills fast enough to maintain Secondary Merciless buffs against bottom tier corpus grunts, and when you clear out all 20 of them, it has 1/4 of its ammo left.  Absolutely ideal circumstances, 5 forma and a riven, and that's the best it can do.  Finish last and finish with the tank on E.

There's a lot of crazy people in here talking about mastering weapons like that means something.  You can "master" your way into the Knell Prime being good because it has usable stats, but a high skill ceiling.  No one is going to master a single Bolto into actually functioning in a high level setting.  And the excuse is always how they'll buff it with a frame, as if external buffs mean a weapon is actually viable.

[RichardKam]

11小时前 , MrDugan 说:

I have 5 forma and a usable, but not perfect riven on the Acrid.  And I fully agree with you, because I cannot make it function in the level of content that it's about to get offered up in.  It does not have the stats.  No usable crit or status.  It only does Toxin damage.  It auto procs toxin on hit, regardless of status, but also regardless of what else you've modded it for.  But because of the lackluster damage and trash stats, even min/maxing it for those toxin procs with every toxin mod available, and as much raw damage and multishot as I can put on it, it doesn't measure up to even the lowest of the mid-level gear.  Under completely ideal circumstances, with simulacrum enemies with AI turned off, getting nothing but clean headshots against stationary targets, it barely kills fast enough to maintain Secondary Merciless buffs against bottom tier corpus grunts, and when you clear out all 20 of them, it has 1/4 of its ammo left.  Absolutely ideal circumstances, 5 forma and a riven, and that's the best it can do.  Finish last and finish with the tank on E.

引用

 

 

[NinjaMaster231456]

Have you watched the video? That build is designed to deal with base steel path corpus, not level 300 armored and healthy murmur enemies 

[MrDugan]

39 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

 

I'm not sure you watched that video, because that's trash.  If that's what that youtuber considers "gold" then it only serves to justify why I don't pay attention to youtubers.  The video was made for clicks, and so people like you can post it as a "gotcha" moment.  And it's not.  Because that doesn't showcase a good weapon, and I'm mad you made me give them a view.

He's running solo content, and running it very slowly.  Imagine trying to run that weapon in a squad.  I can run plenty of non-meta weapons in a squad and end up with top damage and kills, so don't give me that "it's not a fair comparison since squads will be running meta weapons" nonsense.  You could do what he's doing with an amp.  He even mentions several times "it's not very good."  because he knows the title is clickbait.  "Technically kills, just insanely slowly" does not pass muster, and does not mean a weapon is "gold" or good, or even decent.  And to top that off, this isn't JUST about an outdated arsenal.  This is about the fact that we're going to be taking that outdated arsenal into level 300 content with SP type enemy buffs and extra negative modifiers on top of that.  If you think this, or any other of the outdated fodder we have is going to run that, even with a coordinated squad, you can think again.

And again, I have to repeat the question:  Even if this weapon was deemed acceptable, how much of the arsenal should the player be expected to keep and invest this heavily in just in order to engage with the randomizer style content?  Because I have over 3,000 mission hours logged, a lot of that spent investing in and testing weapon builds, and thousands of plat spent just on slots, let alone the forma and other things I've bought, like forma because you can only make one at a time.

[RichardKam]

16分钟前 , MrDugan 说:

I'm not sure you watched that video, because that's trash.  If that's what that youtuber considers "gold" then it only serves to justify why I don't pay attention to youtubers.  The video was made for clicks, and so people like you can post it as a "gotcha" moment.  And it's not.  Because that doesn't showcase a good weapon, and I'm mad you made me give them a view.

He's running solo content, and running it very slowly.  Imagine trying to run that weapon in a squad.  I can run plenty of non-meta weapons in a squad and end up with top damage and kills, so don't give me that "it's not a fair comparison since squads will be running meta weapons" nonsense.  You could do what he's doing with an amp.  He even mentions several times "it's not very good."  because he knows the title is clickbait.  "Technically kills, just insanely slowly" does not pass muster, and does not mean a weapon is "gold" or good, or even decent.  And to top that off, this isn't JUST about an outdated arsenal.  This is about the fact that we're going to be taking that outdated arsenal into level 300 content with SP type enemy buffs and extra negative modifiers on top of that.  If you think this, or any other of the outdated fodder we have is going to run that, even with a coordinated squad, you can think again.

And again, I have to repeat the question:  Even if this weapon was deemed acceptable, how much of the arsenal should the player be expected to keep and invest this heavily in just in order to engage with the randomizer style content?  Because I have over 3,000 mission hours logged, a lot of that spent investing in and testing weapon builds, and thousands of plat spent just on slots, let alone the forma and other things I've bought, like forma because you can only make one at a time.

 

1小时前 , NinjaMaster231456 说:

Have you watched the video? That build is designed to deal with base steel path corpus, not level 300 armored and healthy murmur enemies 

> Claim acrid cannot do any SP corpus content even after 5 forma and a riven

> Showed a video of acrid doing SP corpus content without riven

> AHH NOO THIS IS NOT THE POINT YOU NEED TO BE FAST AGAINST MURMUR AS WELL

You guys tell that Tenno to be more specific when complaining about his arsenal, because there is no any meaningful discussion when the goal posts keep moving.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

1 hour ago, RichardKam said:

 

> Claim acrid cannot do any SP corpus content even after 5 forma and a riven

> Showed a video of acrid doing SP corpus content without riven

> AHH NOO THIS IS NOT THE POINT YOU NEED TO BE FAST AGAINST MURMUR AS WELL

You guys tell that Tenno to be more specific when complaining about his arsenal, because there is no any meaningful discussion when the goal posts keep moving.

>someone says they dont like the honda odyssey because its slow. 

>OH YEAH? WELL YOU MUST JUST BE A BAD DRIVER THEN BECAUSE I DRIVE TO WORK EVERY SINGLE DAY IN ONE LOL XD GET REKT

>point out the problem with that argument 

>LOL GOALPOST MOVE AMIRIGHT?