Being forced to use outdated or bottom-tier RNG equipment in new high level game modes is not "difficulty"

[Silligoose]

On 2024-02-24 at 2:18 AM, Kaiga said:

So devstream 177 teased a new level 300+ sortie-like game mode with random debuffs, where you're locked all week into a random loadout and frame set to pick from like the circuit, where the way to play efficiently or get any decent rewards is to go with the selected options, whatever they are that week.

That's sounds like a lot of fun- If warframe's arsenal and frame roster was reasonably suited to gameplay in 2024, and not when they were released. 

But it is not. Most of our arsenal and frame design is stuck in 2011, and it shows. This game mode is supposed to be, like reb said "A challenge for people who want something extra" but, we didn't spend all this time tweaking, experimenting, investing resources and fine tuning our builds only to be told "whoops, here's banshee and a stug- go fight level 300 enemies in three different mission types in a row with it!"
The number of items that cannot perform at these levels vastly, vastly outweighs the number that can, and since you're locked in for a week to whatever random items roll, well, you're probably getting the shaft more often than not. An expectation of consistent player performance is a cornerstone of design.

Difficulty, this isn't. You're being given potentially bad options against debuffs and higher enemy levels and told that it is.
Warframe is a game about building and mastering content, and the inevitable response to this is: "not so strong now that you're forced to not use your one overpowered build, huh?" or some variant of "just build out everything in the game 5head duh"

Well it doesn't really matter if you've acquired tested and built everything to perfection if you still get the stug regardless, does it? Sure revenant and wukong exist, but competent players will have built out several different setups uniquely suited to different tasks and roles that you need to do.
And you can't even use any of that on a regular basis.

Difficulty in my mind, is something being mechanically difficult with movement techs to master, enemy weaknesses to exploit, and team roles to play, leading to a feeling of "wow that was tough, but we did it."

Meanwhile DE: Nah, let's randomly pick your loadout for you.

I've noticed more and more, especially with the newer "difficult/endgame" bosses, the people in charge at DE simply do not seem interested in, or capable of, making the game a challenge for veterans without sabotaging their players and the game they inherited from the OG devs. Whereas other games encourage, or even necessitate, the synergistic use of the diverse tools and mechanics given to them to take on a challenge, DE instead opts to take away from those tools, to take away from the diversity in the game. The "difficult" options seem the antithesis of what endgame play for a progression-style game tends to be, as it nullifies some advantages made from progression completely by arbitrary means, whilst not encouraging and rewarding the increase of skill through gameplay challenges.

I've lost a lot of interest in Warframe as a result and this thread is what informed me of the upcoming new mode. The answer to "challenge" will likely be something along the lines of "defence strip ability + lategame mods on random weapon", which again sounds like a loss of diversity. The random aspect is most likely a means of encouraging players to spend money on weapons/frames they would not otherwise have.

It is a disappointment, but I do not see it changing anytime soon.

[Aerikx]

On 2024-03-20 at 7:51 PM, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

The issue here is the player base would explode on the forums about being "annoyed" at the tougher enemies, using every talking point possible as the reasoning: too bullet spongy, to hard to hit the weak point, why must I use magnetic damage, why must I use my operator amp, why damage attenuation, why this and I don't want to do that. We've all seen these patterns before and nothing DE does is going to change that. 

I think the solution is for DE to just keep going forward as they were. There are just too many players, of too many genres of gaming, with way too many emotional states, and at too many different levels of play in this game for any harder type of play or any restrictions based gameplay to go unscathed.

Fortunately, DE is actually doing a terrific job of trying ideas and players are coming up with great ideas for DE to try. As long as that's the preferred path, (instead of the insults), then I say let's enjoy and try to stay within the reasonable bounds.

You basically summed up the response to my "Alternative" to RNG method.

The immediate backlash to the concept/idea is literally what you said. 

Which was why I suggested it.

Cause "Real" Challenge vs RNG inconvenience are very different paths.

One of em straight up is meant to test you (a generalization for the generic player) no matter what you (a generalization for the generic player) use.

The other is asking you (a generalization for the generic player) to adapt and perform in a manner outside of norm.

[SneakyErvin]

On 2024-03-25 at 4:19 AM, RichardKam said:

 

> Claim acrid cannot do any SP corpus content even after 5 forma and a riven

> Showed a video of acrid doing SP corpus content without riven

> AHH NOO THIS IS NOT THE POINT YOU NEED TO BE FAST AGAINST MURMUR AS WELL

You guys tell that Tenno to be more specific when complaining about his arsenal, because there is no any meaningful discussion when the goal posts keep moving.

Being able to finish exterminate isnt exactly a benchmark for a weapon, since you practically have all the time in the world to do it. Would be interesting to see how it holds up in practically any other mode that requires killing. Will it even deal enough damage to a SP capture target before it manage to escape? How will it handle defense when a acolyte spawns that you need to focus on for a good while in order to kill it? Assassination, disruption, survival or any mode that practically swarms the player?

So Acrid can uhm clear exterminate, which leads us to consider it can also finish rescue and most sabotage aswell as spy and hijack since they dont really require killing.

[Kaiga]

On 2024-03-24 at 4:13 PM, NinjaMaster231456 said:

Have you watched the video? That build is designed to deal with base steel path corpus, not level 300 armored and healthy murmur enemies 

It is a misdirection, because they are aware of not having much of a point, and are now just making things up.

The original quote was
"you cannot tell me that you can simply "master" the acrid into competing with the laetum, what in the world"

But because i wasn't hairsplittingly specific, i get "sp corpus content after 5 forma and a riven" inserted into reply as a fictional part of my point, which he now gets to disprove with random youtube videos to make him look smarter, and then somehow project the goalpoast moving on to me instead

On 2024-03-24 at 5:19 PM, RichardKam said:

> Claim acrid cannot do any SP corpus content even after 5 forma and a riven

> Showed a video of acrid doing SP corpus content without riven

> AHH NOO THIS IS NOT THE POINT YOU NEED TO BE FAST AGAINST MURMUR AS WELL

You guys tell that Tenno to be more specific when complaining about his arsenal, because there is no any meaningful discussion when the goal posts keep moving.

Which i funny because i didn't say anything about base SP corpus, rivens, forma, this thread is about the high level content...

Edited March 26 by Kaiga

[VENDOMINUS]

Just putting my 2 cents on the statement. "Being forced to use outdated or bottom-tier RNG equipment in new high level game modes is not "difficulty" "

Yes it is. It's a lot more difficult to do something when you can't use the weapons that do billions of damage. Imo all frames can be modded in a way where they can either kill anything that isn't above level 5k with no problems, while surviving just fine with 1 augur mod (that's where the helmith system can help, if you can't think of a better way). Those who can't do it with just abilities can usually do it with a decently modded weapon even if it's not meta or even good. Chances are at least 1 weapon will be useable, and you have the whole week to mod it to where it should be.

[MrDugan]

On 2024-03-24 at 11:19 PM, RichardKam said:

Claim acrid cannot do any SP corpus content even after 5 forma and a riven

This is either you reaching, or just you having an insanely low set of standards.  I never said that it can't kill SP enemies.  I specifically mentioned it killing enemies that had SP modifiers in the simu.  What I said is that it doesn't function well enough to consider it viable.  It barely kills fast enough under ideal simu circumstances to maintain the buff from Secondary Merciless against basic units.  You can see this slow kill speed in the video YOU posted.  Not to mention the fact that the video is all just them killing things.  There are objectives in the game that require kill speed.  What happens with that same Acrid you're defending when you have to defend a target in a DA mission, and you didn't get a defensive frame, and now it's not level 200 simu enemies standing still, but it's level 300 eximus enemy spam where the DOT from those toxin procs isn't going to matter?  I fully stand by what I said about it not being viable.  That video doesn't show the most basic form of viability, much less the ability to handle eximus units or heavier targets while kill speed matters.  So go ahead and block me because you're wrong.  No loss on my part.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2024-03-24 at 2:00 AM, Arniox said:

my wording was exaggerated. Every weapon with a good build can handle the entire star map. It's when you get to SP that a few odd weapons here and there start to drop off.
Kunai are kinda crazy not gonna lie. Even the normal and mk1 variants.
 

I'd say maybe:
- Normal ballistica if you don't have a good build on it.
- Normal Cestra is similar
- Carmine Penta is eh. It struggles a bit in steel path, but I have a 9 forma build for it that makes it sufficient
- Daikyu is a bit weak compared to other bows. Especially in SP
- Cossowar feels a bit weak now days
- Cerata also feels a little weak

That's just a few that I can remember recently reformaring and not really liking

Keep in mind as well that I only recently came back after a very long break so have only 3 incarnon adapters installed atm. I'm sure once I get them all, all weapons will be good.

My apologies for the late response but your list kinda proves what I am saying. Your list of lesser performing weapons is completely different than mine, and you actually love the weapon I thought wouldn't be considered strong. That just sums up the message that it's just not a strong point to make regarding which weapons or warframes are trash and which aren't (and I'm DEEPLY upset that you placed my beloved monster Daikyu on your list. You...you take it off your list THIS INSTANT!!! GRRRR!!! 🤣). DE has simply done an incredible job of not wasting a players time with their inventory, even in SP.

 

[Kaiga]

Well tenno, Deep Archemedia is finally here.



Here's your "endgame" lmao

 

On 2024-03-20 at 10:01 PM, Voltage said:

For this content, it is entirely optional.

You know what, after looking at the rewards table i think you ended up being right here about this.

Because there's nothing new, or game-changing, it's just a slightly more efficient vosphor/shard farm which (they sure as hell didn't sell it like that, "challenge-for-veterans" "elite rewards", etc) with that in mind, then yes, this has now become correct and i owe you an apology for thinking otherwise.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

15 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

Well tenno, Deep Archemedia is finally here.



Here's your "endgame" lmao

Can't wait to try it!! It looks like they watered it down to address the complainers but we'll see. 

[Kaiga]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Can't wait to try it!! It looks like they watered it down to address the complainers but we'll see. 

You as well Gen, it certainly looks like they did, and that now makes your points largely correct about this just being an optional sideroad

Edited April 4 by Kaiga

[billframe]

new game mode not fun 

[Arbitrary]

24 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

Well tenno, Deep Archemedia is finally here.



Here's your "endgame" lmao

That looks like a pretty decent spread. The only questionable thing is your options for secondaries really, but Kuva Kraken is still fine.

You can ignore 1 of the presented options, and all you miss out on is 50 Vosfor.

Edited April 4 by Arbitrary

[Anova3]

You have to be able to run the full spread to unlock the final mode, which I assume also requires a full RNG loadout to keep activated?

And then, to top it off, you have to have a nearly full set of RNG gear just to get all of the rewards, because running it multiple times won't get you everything unless one of your runs has everything they want you to use, checked.

It's just duviri circuit all over again. But this time, we have the option to completely ignore it and maybe possibly farm the rewards through slower methods that are less painful or else buy them from other players. So, while I'll give it more of a pass for that, it's still dumb, and I'm not going to touch it.

Ya'll have fun if you do.

[Skoomaseller]

On 2024-03-27 at 5:06 AM, VENDOMINUS said:

Just putting my 2 cents on the statement. "Being forced to use outdated or bottom-tier RNG equipment in new high level game modes is not "difficulty" "

Yes it is. It's a lot more difficult to do something when you can't use the weapons that do billions of damage. Imo all frames can be modded in a way where they can either kill anything that isn't above level 5k with no problems, while surviving just fine with 1 augur mod (that's where the helmith system can help, if you can't think of a better way). Those who can't do it with just abilities can usually do it with a decently modded weapon even if it's not meta or even good. Chances are at least 1 weapon will be useable, and you have the whole week to mod it to where it should be.

session 1 I get base hind, kuva kraken, and ether daggers on caliban

session 2 I get tenet arca plasmor, laetum and xoris on revenant

session 3 I get trash primary, garbage secondary, mediocre melee on mesa

which ones seem the best to conquer most content? 

when the "difficulty" hinges on a dice roll, it isn't difficulty. you can enjoy this slop if you like it, by all means don't let me stop you, but don't call it a "challenge" because it isn't.

unless of course praying to rngesus is the challenge 

Edited April 4 by Skoomaseller

[VENDOMINUS]

In my first archemidia I had access to Gauss, stradivar, knell, and nami solo. I simply changed some mods, since I couldn't go into operator mode, added a few forma to nami solo, got a riven, rolled it and after that I went in and did the missions with no issues. My experience was positive.

It was about 20 times more difficult than doing stock endurance, because of the modifiers. If I had my normal loadout the difficulty would be 0.001/10.

 

The mode itself promotes spending money, if you don't have extra plat to go around. That's about as far as things go. It's very unlikely that you'll get 4x3 things where there is no combination that will work, provided you build the weapons, frames correctly. On the other hand, you need just one person in the party who has made a decent loadout to carry you if can't manage to come up with something.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

41 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

session 1 I get base hind, kuva kraken, and ether daggers on caliban

session 2 I get tenet arca plasmor, laetum and xoris on revenant

session 3 I get trash primary, garbage secondary, mediocre melee on mesa

which ones seem the best to conquer most content? 

when the "difficulty" hinges on a dice roll, it isn't difficulty. you can enjoy this slop if you like it, by all means don't let me stop you, but don't call it a "challenge" because it isn't.

unless of course praying to rngesus is the challenge 

Again, the point you're trying to make doesn't work. What you consider trash is not what I may consider trash. Doing millions of damage means nothing if you only need thousands or tens of thousands and the right build for the enemy you're fighting...which is EXACTLY why we have multiple loadout options for every single weapon we use. If we're too lazy to create a proper build for the new mission that has a specific enemy faction that we have (should have) scanned data on, then we should not be complaining about weapon quality. 

What I'm seeing a lot of is this pattern of players that just want to jump in and win, full stop.  At lower levels, that's fine but not at higher levels and SP, where we're supposed to put some thought in and respect to the harder hitting, tougher enemies. The arguments are literally against applying an effort and I don't quite understand that. Is Warframe the only game that goes through this? 

In regards to difficulty, again, there will be players who will find this game mode very hard to do. Subjective talk about what is or isn't difficult won't matter for a while and most certainly won't be an important consideration on the forums...aka the place where we could claim our skill is better or worse than it actually is. More importantly, I think this game mode will 100% cause players to take a look at their inventory and, just like the Circuit, they'll have to pay some attention or possible get wrecked. 

[Hexerin]

As anyone with even a single half-functional brain cell predicted, the mode is absolute sh-. The RNG loadout system has to go, period, end of discussion.

 

1 hour ago, VENDOMINUS said:

On the other hand, you need just one person in the party who has made a decent loadout to carry you if can't manage to come up with something.

You do understand that's objectively unacceptable design, right?

Edited April 4 by Hexerin

[schilds]

2 hours ago, Kaiga said:

it's just a slightly more efficient vosphor/shard farm which (they sure as hell didn't sell it like that

Yes they did. We were told the rewards were netracell rewards.

Edited April 4 by schilds

[Xsoskeleton]

i'm honestly amazed the game is capable and managed to avoid every single prime weapon and incarnon related weapons literally in the next day.

comparison of launch day lineup vs today's lineup on my end

[Hexerin]

21 minutes ago, Xsoskeleton said:

i'm honestly amazed the game is capable and managed to avoid every single prime weapon and incarnon related weapons literally in the next day.

comparison of launch day lineup vs today's lineup on my end

I would assume that like every other RNG loadout system in the game, it's only showing the base form but will accept advanced forms. I know it does for the warframes, as it showed Nova but accepted Nova Prime when I did my runs.

EDIT: Yea, it definitely does:

Spoiler

I don't own Hystrix, but I do own Hystrix Prime. It accepted the Prime just fine.

Edited April 5 by Hexerin

[Xsoskeleton]

10 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

I would assume that like every other RNG loadout system in the game, it's only showing the base form but will accept advanced forms. I know it does for the warframes, as it showed Nova but accepted Nova Prime when I did my runs.

if u look closely the 2nd day Weapons lineup has no primes or incarnon genesis variety. My point being the game actually avoided ALL weapons with prime and incarnon variety.

My previous run (left side) already uses burston prime incarnon and silvaegis prime. Velox Prime isnt out yet for like maybe for another month lemao.

Edited April 5 by Xsoskeleton

[TheVoyant]

This was a really good point made pre-emptive of what the major problem is with its design.

Instead of giving players a fun end game, we essentially got another sortie to ignore unless you're that particular tiny niche who likes this sorta content. To which they literally have The Circuit for.... 

Dante Unbound has been exhausting with both technical issues and diminished the experience in gameplay. Deep Arch was the only thing I was looking forward to as a fan of cells. I didn't look into it enough though and was hit with immediate disappointment because I was hit with the load out crap.

I main one frame, I use the same loadout for everything. Its not a nuke, it doesn't trivialize the content. But its how I enjoy playing. I've said it once and I'll say it again here.

Using things you don't want to isn't a challenge, its a chore. 

 

[Pragmatic_2015]

What if this is the devs trying to move the meta huggers on. Getting them to try something new.

[Skoomaseller]

5 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Again, the point you're trying to make doesn't work. What you consider trash is not what I may consider trash. Doing millions of damage means nothing if you only need thousands or tens of thousands and the right build for the enemy you're fighting...which is EXACTLY why we have multiple loadout options for every single weapon we use. If we're too lazy to create a proper build for the new mission that has a specific enemy faction that we have (should have) scanned data on, then we should not be complaining about weapon quality. 

What I'm seeing a lot of is this pattern of players that just want to jump in and win, full stop.  At lower levels, that's fine but not at higher levels and SP, where we're supposed to put some thought in and respect to the harder hitting, tougher enemies. The arguments are literally against applying an effort and I don't quite understand that. Is Warframe the only game that goes through this? 

In regards to difficulty, again, there will be players who will find this game mode very hard to do. Subjective talk about what is or isn't difficult won't matter for a while and most certainly won't be an important consideration on the forums...aka the place where we could claim our skill is better or worse than it actually is. More importantly, I think this game mode will 100% cause players to take a look at their inventory and, just like the Circuit, they'll have to pay some attention or possible get wrecked. 

base hind is trash no matter who is looking at it. MANY weapons are just genuinely, factually speaking, bad. 

the point I make absolutely works because my difficulty depends on what I am offered. That isn't a "challenge." 

again, you can like this garbage if you want. I cannot stop you. just don't call it a challenge, because it isn't one. 

[WildstarsCCB]

See，bro. The true point is，this kind of "difficulty" is the only thing they can create now. They really believe it is funny and challenging to pick up random weapon and frame and fight lv9999😑enemies. AND If they really do this in the future, that would not surprise me at all.

Can you still remember the last time we face excited New Boss OR fresh gameplay in this game？The answer for me to this question is no. Sadly, Not at all.