Frame Identity > [Current year] performance/relevancy

[Raikh]

Eh, you can create means to deal AoE damage w/o it being a straight up nuke. If they aren't willing to create use cases for Warframe designs that are in the game they need to reinvent the Frame's identity in a way that works with the current game.

Decoy is such an outdated ability that it should be very doable to re-invent the idea and turn it into something that works in the current and future game. Being a Trickster and about Deception doesn't exclude the possibility of having dmg in there somewhere.

Maybe he could spawn a ton of decoys like Archon Amar that start pulsing dmg and some CC when attacked or when enemies are close and they could possibly detonate or buff Loki when Switch teleported with him or when destroyed. Still very much in line with Loki but a little more deadly.

[Xzorn]

23 minutes ago, -Krism- said:

Amp weapon damage and then lock down enemies?

Tone down their damage and then CC them?

 

Weapons have the highest scaling potential. So you use skills like Sonar, Roar, etc to amp their damage higher.

The flaw was that Enemy Damage Scaling was exponential. It still is. This forced players who wanted to make the most of their void keys to lock down rooms or hide behind barriers after a certain point. There were no frames with 100k eHP at the time. They should have made enemy damage more linear. Doing that would have allowed them to tone down the room wide CC to more reasonable radius or effect. We also wouldn't have cheese Immune fixes and abilities to ignore damage.

Now that they've done the exact opposite again. Leaving Enemy Damage but soft capping Defense. Players only need to worry about survival.
Given all the band-aids like Nullifiers and Overguard. Generally the best method is to just out stat what you're shooting by not dying.

[UnstarPrime]

4 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Frame Identity > [Current year] performance/relevancy

I think it's also worth pointing out to folks that Loki is in no way performing poorly or irrelevant.  His 2023 stats show that high MR players use him at a rate of 2%.  With 50+ frames, that's slightly above average usage.  And it makes sense that players would still be using him at that solid rate, because Invisibility alone is so powerful that it's all you need to solve many of the game's problems.

 

Quote

"I think it would be sad to turn Loki into a DPS frame that spreads Viral, AoE nukes or something, Loki master race had it's heyday. The game has changed, and his role is very niche, but I think the changes needed to make him king again would just make him not Loki." - Pablo

Broadly speaking, I really love the way Pablo thinks about the game, and I agree with this particular sentiment.  I would far rather have a diversity of frames that work decently than less variety in what frames are doing but they're all top tier performers.

I think that the upcoming update will give Loki the precise tune-up he's most needed: enhance the durability (and optionally the capability) of his Decoy; it's the only part of his kit that had broken under the weight of more powerful enemies.

Loki may not be the most meta defining frame, but that's because Loki's wheelhouse isn't the most meta-defining wheelhouse in the context of the current game.  But it's still a passable and enjoyable wheelhouse for the players that are looking for that Loki experience.

[-Krism-]

25 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

[...]

My point was that you used then instead of than

[Tiltskillet]

As an enjoyer of Loki's current playstyle, I  really appreciate that Pablo doesn't want to make him a dps frame.

As an enjoyer of Loki's current playstyle who also sees lots of room for improvement in his kit, I don't understand Pablo's actual response at all.   It does make some sense in the context of knowing that they've only got so much time to revisit old frames.  But he didn't say that.

Since they are actually trying to address one of the biggest problems with Loki fulfilling his current playstyle--the absurd flimsiness of Decoy--I'm just going to put it down to "Tweets are more conducive to fragmentary explanations than full ones" and leave it at that.

[Aldain]

9 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

As an enjoyer of Loki's current playstyle, I  really appreciate that Pablo doesn't want to make him a dps frame.

As an enjoyer of Loki's current playstyle who also sees lots of room for improvement in his kit, I don't understand Pablo's actual response at all.   It does make some sense in the context of knowing that they've only got so much time to revisit old frames.  But he didn't say that.

Since they are actually trying to address one of the biggest problems with Loki fulfilling his current playstyle--the absurd flimsiness of Decoy--I'm just going to put it down to "Tweets are more conducive to fragmentary explanations than full ones" and leave it at that.

For me it's hard to say if the paper durability Decoy or Switch Teleport being an ability unto itself when it could be a hold cast on Decoy is the worse issue with Loki.

I know people love bringing that invuln mod for it, but seriously so many other frames can be essentially as invincible as that in 90% of situations that having to tap that every 8-9 seconds give or take sounds like a living purgatory to me. Him having a real 3rd ability with something on brand for him while not actually losing Switch Teleport functionally is a win/win in my eyes.

Any other issues he to me has come from his passive (which at least is better than Frost's) or the usual CC problems mentioned in the thread, Loki's issue is that he's like Dagath's face, functional but hollow.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

5 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

 

Pablo sharing his perspective from a designer's point of view. This train of thought is why some frames -even if updated-  will remain personal picks and will naturally drift apart from the meta.

Granted that CC has taken hits with CC-immune enemies, but the alternative is a room frozen in place with helpless enemies. DPS and nukes are more manageable in comparison because you can buff enemies to compensate, but CC either works or it doesn't work.

This is why several Helminth abilities will remain as they are by proxy.

>either CC works or it doesnt work.

 

And im slowly starting to not like that. 

AI is either all the way on or all the way off, there's no in between and enemies are either completely vulnerable or completely immune to it.

[Tiltskillet]

5 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I know people love bringing that invuln mod for it, but seriously so many other frames can be essentially as invincible as that in 90% of situations that having to tap that every 8-9 seconds give or take sounds like a living purgatory to me. Him having a real 3rd ability with something on brand for him while not actually losing Switch Teleport functionally is a win/win in my eyes.

I enjoy Switch Tele, so I see things very differently.  I don't want it combined with another ability in any way that would make his current options clunkier.  For instance, combining it with Decoy as a tap/hold.  I can totally understand how that sounds like a good compromise when a player doesn't see much point in one or both though.

I'd rather add another function or two to the base ability, so it's more appealing to more players.  (Especially without the augment.)  I also think this is far more likely than a consolidation, and a new ability...although "no improvement" is obviously the most likely future ahead of us.

I also have a much higher opinion of Safeguard Switch, partially because I don't use other invuln options much.   I don't play Revenant or Nyx.  Don't do a lot of shieldgating or Protective Dash spam.  I do play Valk, but nearly always without Hysteria.   But more than anything the augment  opened up another, more hectic way of playing Loki, and I've gotten hours of entertainment out of it.

Again, I can understand how this might feel different to somebody who doesn't have fun using Switch Tele in the first place, or values easier sources of invulnerability, or whatever.  I'm probably way out in the wilderness in my views on this compared to most players.

[-Krism-]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

--the absurd flimsiness of Decoy--

Pablo said during the last Devstream that decoy will now scale with the density of enemies around it

[_Anise_]

3 hours ago, pwnSacrifice said:

atlas, Caliban, equinox all come to mind

Banshee ? literally a one trick pony that got slightly worse when universal enemy radar became a thing

[Tiltskillet]

15 minutes ago, -Krism- said:

Pablo said during the last Devstream that decoy will now scale with the density of enemies around it

I alluded to this earlier in the same sentence you quoted from.    If it's because I said  they were "trying to address it", that's only because I don't want to assume the Decoy problem has been solved until I've played with it.

 

[-Krism-]

29 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I alluded to this earlier in the same sentence you quoted from.

My bad, didn't notice

[trst]

Frame identity is always more important than performance or relevancy.

We're already looking at over 50 frames and if the game lasts another ten years we may be looking back at over 100. At some point, which I'd argue we're already approaching it, all that matters is frame identity. As players who pick something just for being a strong option or outright meta will always be around but for everyone else they'll get to have their one/selection of frames that perfectly fit their playstyles. Plus the more frames we get the more niche every frame will become outside of the few frames that'll always fit the general meta which also change over time.

 

In the case of Loki while I personally support a rework to him I'd never want this "stealth trickster" thematic nor his playstyle to suffer for it. If he's ever reworked he should remain a stealth focused frame that disrupts/distracts enemies, not be turned into something that'd be a top pick with grouping, damage buffs, invulnerability, nukes, etc.

[Waeleto]

5 hours ago, pwnSacrifice said:

atlas

Atlas ? ATLAS ? the warframe that 1 shots acolytes and hordes on enemies with a single ability ? yeah no thanks atlas doesn't need a rework

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Glad a voice of reason statement was made to help meta chasers understand every frame isn't for them to play.

[TARINunit9]

I don't want Loki to turn into another nuke frame either. I just wanted his abilities to be neat and fun to use

The upcoming Decoy changes look to be solving roughly half of his most pressing issues

[pwnSacrifice]

3 hours ago, Waeleto said:

Atlas ? ATLAS ? the warframe that 1 shots acolytes and hordes on enemies with a single ability ? yeah no thanks atlas doesn't need a rework

While I appreciate that Atlas has some viability, the same as Loki, Equinox, Caliban and others, I was drawing the comparison between a strong identity but lacking in the ability department. I'm also not saying he needs a rework, but tectonics and Rumblers really don't provide any real value now do they?

That single ability is pretty much all atlas really has going for him, much like Loki's invisibility or Caliban's 4.

We don't really have any 'old' Hydroid level frames anymore, I think, so now we look to the under preforming frames. Loki is still way up there for me in usage, but that doesn't mean he isn't due some love. Hopefully the decoy augment helps. Switch teleport needs to do something useful. Outside of the drone in PoE, and the few times I want to switch with decoy, it's just useless. Even Ash's teleport opens up finishers. What incentive do I have to cast switch on an enemy? It's expensive and more situational than percipacity.

What do I want to see? Well, decoy augment is at least a step in the right direction, if not the fix it needs and I just want some kind of reason to cast switch on an enemy. A full stack of rad procs wouldn't be the worst (forcing surrounding enemies to attack), but anything that 'manipulates' the enemies in some fashion, preferably with some debuff.

I don't want to see weapon buffs, direct damage, or even survival tools. Loki should be doing "things" to the bad guys, plain and simple.

Edited February 27 by pwnSacrifice

[DrivaMain]

Most game modes are geared towards DPS setups. If we look at all the game modes: Mobile Defense, Mirror Defense, Excavation, and Interception are the only game modes that do not penalize having a crowd control setup. 

Addressing this imbalance should alleviate the bias towards DPS. 

I agree with Pablo's sentiment, however, there are ways to tweak the frame without ruining its identity or turning it into another "super nuker braindead meta" of the season. Loki's decoy having scaling is just one step of that. Say, for example, tweaking Switch Teleport that makes the switched enemies confused permanently and deals +550% in friendly fire damage akin to 10 stacks of radiation, would make it useful without changing it entirely and still align with what the ability tooltip says. 

[pwnSacrifice]

5 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

Banshee ? literally a one trick pony that got slightly worse when universal enemy radar became a thing

Agreed. I just didn't want to list every under preforming frame. I'm more drawing comparisons and want to focus on Loki here.

I'd say she's in more need of dev love than Loki though.

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, Aldain said:

Like I said earlier, look at the incoming Inaros rework for evidence of that being possible.

It's a strange specific stance to take when they're clearly capable of having their cake and eating it too.

Not only will Inaros keep his identity, it will strengthen it massively. Actual scarab swarms, sand minions that are Bast-ish cats, a more proper sandstorm transform, a getting back from the dead passive that is more inline with a mummy curse and less "Hi my name is coffin! My special move is doing jack S#&$!".

[brago90]

The only change that I see necessary in Loki is precisely the one they make in the next update, the decoy will scale with the level of the enemies with the added bonus that you can place it on an enemy.

On the other hand switch teleport is uncomfortable compared to the new teleports but it is still functional.

Loki already has a good kit and with the decoy fixed he doesn't need any more attention except for the occasional review of the interaction of his radial disarm with the new enemies of the moment.

[Skoomaseller]

16 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

"Hi my name is coffin! My special move is doing jack S#&$!".

*tickling you with sand

[Hexerin]

On 2024-02-27 at 10:16 AM, ECCHOSIERRA said:

>either CC works or it doesnt work.

 

And im slowly starting to not like that. 

AI is either all the way on or all the way off, there's no in between and enemies are either completely vulnerable or completely immune to it.

DE needs to nut up and do a modernization pass on all CC abilities. If a target is immune to a CC effect, then they need to apply an alternative effect that bypasses immunity while still being thematically appropriate to the main effect. In other words, give all CC abilities the Bastille treatment. Enemies immune to Bastille's primary effect (stun) are instead slowed (which is basically just a lesser version of stun).

Take another frame, Nyx, for an example of an update that could be done. If an enemy is immune to Chaos's primary effect (being forced to attack the nearest potential target to themselves, regardless of that target's affiliation), they should instead be hit with a massive accuracy penalty (that stacks with any other penalties). This keeps the theme of making enemies go crazy (sowing chaos), as a crazed entity is generally incapable of precision.

[Pakaku]

Quote

I think it would be sad to turn Loki into a DPS frame that spreads Viral, AoE nukes or something, Loki master race had it's heyday. The game has changed, and his role is very niche, but I think the changes needed to make him king again would just make him not Loki. https://t.co/T3Ak8tGbF6

That's because DE has let this game devolve into the chaotic mess it's become, where the meta still favours DPS and Viral Slash. This is what led to the biggest drawback of the recent Warframe overhauls, they lost some identity to become homogenous with the DPS meta.

What they need to do is change the game itself to favour DPS less and other playstyles more equally, in a way where non-DPS frames like Loki would naturally become more "relevant" again without their innate playstyles needing to change in favour of more DPS.

Edited February 29 by Pakaku

[Hayrack]

Evolved, lmao... The game is spinning it's wheels in one ditch, called DPS. The so called "damage mitigation" is also all about DPS. New game modes feature lvl 200 enemies, again, asking for even more DPS. When was the last time somebody modded their weapon for reload speed or range? The end game is managing to complete the mission with one healer, one trash mob nuker, one damage buffer and one armor stripper, before the host disconnects.

Edited February 29 by Hayrack