Can we revert chroma nerfs

[Wolf_Dae_Legend]

Seeing as DE is reverting mirages eclipse values. Can we do the same for chroma's vex armour? Chroma has needed a few tweaks or a little buff for a long time and has been neglected for too long. While not a terrible frame and having his neesh in credit farming, his vex nerf always felt unwarranted even during his height of usage during eidolon hunts due to quite a few frames being able to solo/ nearly one shot as good as he was doing. Even now with eidolons not being the focus anymore. Other frames are still easily doing multiple tri caps at night. I see no problem in buffing him or just reverting the old nerf. I know pablo has admitted to being afraid to touch him due to the fanbase. Im also aware pablo wants to touch him up due to not liking the playstyle of him and mirage. With mirage getting a touch up and her damage value getting chroma'd and then reverting it back, i hope chromas get it aswell.

 

But im just repeating myself too much at this point.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

What do you need the extra damage for? It's a huge damage boost already which you can already synergize with to enhance via faction damage mods.....arcanes....other allies' abilities, shards, helminth etc. 

[Greysmog]

40 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

What do you need the extra damage for? It's a huge damage boost already which you can already synergize with to enhance via faction damage mods.....arcanes....other allies' abilities, shards, helminth etc. 

I'd there's anything I'd want to change on Vex Armor at this point, it's how insanely hard you have to build for Power Strength. The actual armor and damage is fine, Chroma is a tank first and foremost, and honestly it's more a problem with how Armor scales versus straight up DR than the ability itself.

I guess I just want the buffs to be a really high but flat value. That way, you can change Power Strength so that it helps you stack up the buffs faster. Still necessary of course, but now you can actually forego a mod or two for more Range or an Augment. 

It's something I would hope DE looks into for Rhino as another example, but obviously in a different way so I feel like I can build him more for something else in his kit other than just Iron Skin without crippling myself in other areas.

Edited February 27 by Greysmog

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 minutes ago, Greysmog said:

I'd there's anything I'd want to change on Vex Armor at this point, it's how insanely hard you have to build for Power Strength. The actual armor and damage is fine.

I guess I just want the buffs to be a really high but flat value. That way, you can change Power Strength so that it helps you stack up the buffs faster. Still necessary of course, but now you can actually forego a mod or two for more Range or an Augment. 

It's something I would hope DE looks into for Rhino as another example, but obviously in a different way so I feel like I can build him more for something else in his kit other than just Iron Skin without crippling myself in other areas.

I agree, especially having to get hit to get the max effect.

[Greysmog]

17 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I agree, especially having to get hit to get the max effect.

Vex Armor would also probably benefit from an initial damage and armor buff at say, half the value it maxes out at. Chroma would probably benefit more from a straight up additional invulnerability phase built into Vex Armor, giving him his own special "health gate" if you will so you can get hit for free without dying, but that's a separate discussion probably involving an entire overhaul.

That way you're going into fights with some bulk beforehand, as Elemental Ward already does something similar, and you can easily just change the "health damage and shield damage" to just "damage in general", wherein it maxes out your Armor buff first and then starts increasing your damage buff. I just don't think there's really any point in adding a discrepancy there when you might want to build Chroma for a full Shield build with Electricity, or a pure Health build with Heat. Just make it easier to maintain the buffs and don't overcomplicate things, that's how you get Warframes like Lavos or Limbo.

I can't say I'm entirely against Vex Armor scaling from hits, but I do agree it's kind of dumb that it doesn't give you anything until you start taking damage. 

Edited February 27 by Greysmog

[Waeleto]

I'd love for that to happen but i think now is not the time, save it for chroma's long overdue rework 

[Xzorn]

The changes did make him lose a notable amount of eHP Which at the time made him useless against Puncture Damage.

I still have calcs for it.

Spoiler

Chroma 224% Power + Vitality + Primed Flow + Steel Fiber + QT + Primed Vigor
350 * (1 + 1.1 + 3.36) = 1,911
1,911 * 7.84 = 14,982.24 = 98.037%
638 / 0.41667 = 1,531.19 / ( 1 - 0.98037) = 77,997.96
960 / ( 1 - 0.98037) = 48,904.74
48,904.74 + 77,997.96 = 126,902.7 eHP

= 98.04% DR

Chroma 329%  Umbra Vitality + Primed Flow + QT + Primed Vigor
Ice Ward 350 * (1 + (1.45 * 2.29) = 1,944.225
Vex 350 * ( 1 + (3.5 * 2.29) = 3,155.25
(1,944.225 + 3,155.25) / (1,944.225 + 3,155.25 + 300) = 0.94444

Raw eHP 1353 / (1 - 0.9524) = 28,484
QT Energy eHP 2,052 / (1 - 0.9524) = 43,109
Total 71,593

Ice Ward 350 * (1 + (1.45 * 2.19) = 1,461.425
Vex 350 * ( 1 + (3.5 * 2.19) = 3,899.25
(1,461.425 + 3,899.25) / (1,461.425 + 3,899.25 + 300) = 0.947

Raw eHP 1603 / (1 - 0.947) = 30,251
QT Energy eHP 2,052 / (1 - 0.947) = 38,724.3
Total 68,975 eHP

= 95.24%

 

Chroma with 105% more Power Strength still doesn't come close to the original in eHP.

After Adding Tau Crimson x5 he gets a little closer but in reality it's Adaptation doing a lot of heavy lifting which wasn't around back then.
The whole additive damage thing was just nerfing him for Eidolons coming up and now with enemy Defense soft cap they have to use such methods.

Not that 1.5s and 1s time to kill makes much difference. I was thinking about doing a Chroma rework to address some of this but no one reads those.

BTW Primed Vigor is exactly for his Vex Armor buff. Using it allows one pass through shields for maximum armor value.
After that it's your fault if you let it fall off.

[pwnSacrifice]

While clunky,, vex armor is far from chroma's biggest issues (cough*spectral scream*cough)

I like the idea of some initial value to start from on vex, but I'd like to see how his new augment works before I start in on the whole "Chroma rework" shpiel.

[Xzorn]

14 minutes ago, pwnSacrifice said:

While clunky,, vex armor is far from chroma's biggest issues (cough*spectral scream*cough)

I like the idea of some initial value to start from on vex, but I'd like to see how his new augment works before I start in on the whole "Chroma rework" shpiel.

 

Flaws with Spectral Scream are wonky. If players want a constant stream that goes where they aim it will obstruct vision to shoot stuff. That is of course allowing him to shoot while using it which is the bigger issue. I was going to change it to a massive beam-like wave with infinite punch-through that auto applies 5 stacks of status.

Kinda like Plasmor on crack.

Combine the perks of Vex + Ward and give him a new 2nd ability. Also changing some of the features of Ward. The Whole Aura thing is meh. The buffs would be similar but the Aura was going to be swapped into the 2nd ability with more functionality instead of an aura. I was thinking something like "Spectral Roar" or maybe a damage storage mechanic where you unleash in a radius around him. Each element having unique effects.

[pwnSacrifice]

3 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

Flaws with Spectral Scream are wonky. ...

Sure. Like just about anything would be better. I just slap on fire walker or hideous resistance for status immunity over it. 

For me it's a tie between him and Caliban for the worst 1 in the game. It's not hard to improve it. Just letting us shoot while it's up would be massive.

Elemental ward and vex are mostly fine. Usability issues for vex sure, but mostly fine.

His 4 is also hot garbage, but at least it's got a teeny tiny sliver of a niche.

[Xzorn]

17 minutes ago, pwnSacrifice said:

Sure. Like just about anything would be better. I just slap on fire walker or hideous resistance for status immunity over it. 

For me it's a tie between him and Caliban for the worst 1 in the game. It's not hard to improve it. Just letting us shoot while it's up would be massive.

Elemental ward and vex are mostly fine. Usability issues for vex sure, but mostly fine.

His 4 is also hot garbage, but at least it's got a teeny tiny sliver of a niche.

 

Ward and Vex was more about the fact they don't really need to be two abilities. They can simply function of Elemental choice as one.

I had concept for Effigy as well. Mostly revolving around the Effigy itself also granting Chroma's buffs to groups so players don't need to hump his leg. Adding the new breath attack to it as well. By default it's attached to Chroma providing ambient CC / Damage as close range but can do it's typical target move and detach from him.

[Wolf_Dae_Legend]

3 hours ago, pwnSacrifice said:

While clunky,, vex armor is far from chroma's biggest issues (cough*spectral scream*cough)

I like the idea of some initial value to start from on vex, but I'd like to see how his new augment works before I start in on the whole "Chroma rework" shpiel.

Im steering clear away from that augment. Its not bad on paper but chroma isnt remotely tanky enough to run tharmt in situations that you would want it in

 

3 hours ago, pwnSacrifice said:

Sure. Like just about anything would be better. I just slap on fire walker or hideous resistance for status immunity over it. 

For me it's a tie between him and Caliban for the worst 1 in the game. It's not hard to improve it. Just letting us shoot while it's up would be massive.

Elemental ward and vex are mostly fine. Usability issues for vex sure, but mostly fine.

His 4 is also hot garbage, but at least it's got a teeny tiny sliver of a niche.

Im giving it to chroma on the worst 1 list. 

 

Biggest problem with vex and pretty much only problem is the amount of work your doing and putting in for a damage boost with low value in comparison of other frames who just activate and forget with better/ equivalent damage values with not even close to the work and or danger ya gotta put in. Ward is cool tho. Maybe tweak effect values aswell with it.

 

His 1 and 4 desperately needs looked at.

 

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

Ward and Vex was more about the fact they don't really need to be two abilities. They can simply function of Elemental choice as one.

I had concept for Effigy as well. Mostly revolving around the Effigy itself also granting Chroma's buffs to groups so players don't need to hump his leg. Adding the new breath attack to it as well. By default it's attached to Chroma providing ambient CC / Damage as close range but can do it's typical target move and detach from him.

I agree that his team trying to stay near him for the buffs isnt fun. And im not qasting a slot on the augment, I always wished that we could deploy effigy and it gave our teammates the vex buff while standing within certain meters of it tho.

5 hours ago, Xzorn said:

The changes did make him lose a notable amount of eHP Which at the time made him useless against Puncture Damage.

I still have calcs for it.

  Reveal hidden contents

Chroma 224% Power + Vitality + Primed Flow + Steel Fiber + QT + Primed Vigor
350 * (1 + 1.1 + 3.36) = 1,911
1,911 * 7.84 = 14,982.24 = 98.037%
638 / 0.41667 = 1,531.19 / ( 1 - 0.98037) = 77,997.96
960 / ( 1 - 0.98037) = 48,904.74
48,904.74 + 77,997.96 = 126,902.7 eHP

= 98.04% DR

Chroma 329%  Umbra Vitality + Primed Flow + QT + Primed Vigor
Ice Ward 350 * (1 + (1.45 * 2.29) = 1,944.225
Vex 350 * ( 1 + (3.5 * 2.29) = 3,155.25
(1,944.225 + 3,155.25) / (1,944.225 + 3,155.25 + 300) = 0.94444

Raw eHP 1353 / (1 - 0.9524) = 28,484
QT Energy eHP 2,052 / (1 - 0.9524) = 43,109
Total 71,593

Ice Ward 350 * (1 + (1.45 * 2.19) = 1,461.425
Vex 350 * ( 1 + (3.5 * 2.19) = 3,899.25
(1,461.425 + 3,899.25) / (1,461.425 + 3,899.25 + 300) = 0.947

Raw eHP 1603 / (1 - 0.947) = 30,251
QT Energy eHP 2,052 / (1 - 0.947) = 38,724.3
Total 68,975 eHP

= 95.24%

 

Chroma with 105% more Power Strength still doesn't come close to the original in eHP.

After Adding Tau Crimson x5 he gets a little closer but in reality it's Adaptation doing a lot of heavy lifting which wasn't around back then.
The whole additive damage thing was just nerfing him for Eidolons coming up and now with enemy Defense soft cap they have to use such methods.

Not that 1.5s and 1s time to kill makes much difference. I was thinking about doing a Chroma rework to address some of this but no one reads those.

BTW Primed Vigor is exactly for his Vex Armor buff. Using it allows one pass through shields for maximum armor value.
After that it's your fault if you let it fall off.

It doesn't even need to be its old values but atleast bring it up to a reasonable amount

[Wolf_Dae_Legend]

Also we can add health regeneration to the fire element aswell to help make it more viable?

[Xzorn]

3 minutes ago, Wolf_Dae_Legend said:

Also we can add health regeneration to the fire element aswell to help make it more viable?

 

I was thinking along these as well. By combining Vex and Ward I was going to remove the Defensive buffs and instead add alternate features that way no elemental combo makes him notably more durable than the other. It would gives buffs to himself and others. Heat would give Regen. Ice would give deflection cold proc, Toxic would explode similar to Nourish with Toxic status, Electric I like but would need tweaking. Fun as it is to nuke enemies by cranking shields. It's not really his thing and competes with the cold option.

The concept is Chroma can apply any base element status in mass. Makes using those niche Arcanes more fun.

I'm just kinda stuck on a solid 2nd ability. Chroma is a Brawler. He likes melee and guns so picking something good for both is tricky.

[TeaHands]

22 minutes ago, Wolf_Dae_Legend said:

Also we can add health regeneration to the fire element aswell to help make it more viable?

Health Regen would be nice but honestly slapping on Molt Reconstruct and having some way of reliably maintaining Energy (Zenurik, Dispensary, Nourish, Rage, Energize) gets Chroma through just about all content including Steel Path. (Only mission that gives me trouble is Interception.)

I use him for Archon Hunts every week and I can finish the final mission in about 7-10 minutes.

Honestly if they just allow Chroma to use weapons or at least melee while channeling Spectral Scream and letting him command the Effigy to Hold Position/Follow like Crew Mates, I wouldn't have any complaints about him.

[Skoomaseller]

I'd rather have a whole kit refresh for Chroma than just reverting Vex Armor

i mean just look at his 1 which is Ignis at home, and his 4 which has like literally 1 (admittedly significant) use

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Why Revert when we can Evolve? 

The game has changed, and at one point Chroma was considered the master of elements, but that was then, and this is now. Many additional Warframes, with even greater elemental prowess have been released, Chroma has fell on hard times. Except there is one thing we all know. Chroma is a big guy, and when we first made him, we used parts from other Warframes to supplement his creation. I say let Chroma eat. As the biggest, why doesn't he just eat all the others? Let Chroma 4.0 happen, where we throw a few Gyre, Lavos, Yareli Chassis, Neuros etc at him, to join the others. Let this influx of elemental energy, enhance, revitalise, empower. 

Make Chroma's first ability... fire breath, but also a laser, thats also fire, but also electricity, and ice, thunder, and a high pressure jet of water. 

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Greysmog said:

Vex Armor would also probably benefit from an initial damage and armor buff at say, half the value it maxes out at. Chroma would probably benefit more from a straight up additional invulnerability phase built into Vex Armor, giving him his own special "health gate" if you will so you can get hit for free without dying, but that's a separate discussion probably involving an entire overhaul.

That way you're going into fights with some bulk beforehand, as Elemental Ward already does something similar, and you can easily just change the "health damage and shield damage" to just "damage in general", wherein it maxes out your Armor buff first and then starts increasing your damage buff. I just don't think there's really any point in adding a discrepancy there when you might want to build Chroma for a full Shield build with Electricity, or a pure Health build with Heat. Just make it easier to maintain the buffs and don't overcomplicate things, that's how you get Warframes like Lavos or Limbo.

I can't say I'm entirely against Vex Armor scaling from hits, but I do agree it's kind of dumb that it doesn't give you anything until you start taking damage. 

You can already self cap without needing to get hit by enemies. It's just the armor part that needs actual enemy hits, which isnt really an issue since its hits versus shields. With Combat Discipline you have max Vex damage after killing 10 enemies iirc. Not saying he couldnt use some QoL or bigger changes, but there are ways to easily maintain Vex and easily max it out if you happen to snooze on a rebuff.

[Skoomaseller]

35 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

As the biggest, why doesn't he just eat all the others? Let Chroma 4.0 happen, where we throw a few Gyre, Lavos, Yareli Chassis, Neuros etc at him, to join the others. Let this influx of elemental energy, enhance, revitalise, empower.  

 

36 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Let Chroma 4.0 happen, where we throw a few Gyre, Lavos, Yareli Chassis, Neuros etc at him, to join the others. Let this influx of elemental energy, enhance, revitalise, empower. 

 

36 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Yareli Chassis 

MERULINA CHROMA META SOON™

37 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Make Chroma's first ability... fire breath, but also a laser, thats also fire, but also electricity, and ice, thunder, and a high pressure jet of water. 

jokes aside I was thinking we could take a page out of skyrim's book and give him elemental shouts with secondary effects based on element cycle

[eboomer]

Yeah at this point, Chroma is pretty out of touch.  DE has added so many sources of huge amounts of base damage (including gun CO and weapon arcanes), all of which have substantially diluted the utility of his damage buffs.  And almost nobody survives off of EHP tanking, which was his other forté.  And they have taken away every single way of self damage as far as I am aware other than Combat Discipline, so it sucks much more now to get your buffs up (the new augment mod might be nice in that regard, we'll see).

He needs things in his kit that are actually relevant in 2024.  Like MULTIPLICATIVE damage (our some damage buff that is not saturated), shield gating or overguard goodness, grouping abilities, and defense stripping.

And if they fix his 4 doubling credits from Profit Taker, then they had better greatly increase the credits that Profit Taker drops, or else there will be practically no reason for anybody to run one of the best boss fights in the game.

[Wolf_Dae_Legend]

21 hours ago, eboomer said:

Yeah at this point, Chroma is pretty out of touch.  DE has added so many sources of huge amounts of base damage (including gun CO and weapon arcanes), all of which have substantially diluted the utility of his damage buffs.  And almost nobody survives off of EHP tanking, which was his other forté.  And they have taken away every single way of self damage as far as I am aware other than Combat Discipline, so it sucks much more now to get your buffs up (the new augment mod might be nice in that regard, we'll see).

He needs things in his kit that are actually relevant in 2024.  Like MULTIPLICATIVE damage (our some damage buff that is not saturated), shield gating or overguard goodness, grouping abilities, and defense stripping.

And if they fix his 4 doubling credits from Profit Taker, then they had better greatly increase the credits that Profit Taker drops, or else there will be practically no reason for anybody to run one of the best boss fights in the game.

I agree mostly. Im still personally staying FARRRR away from that augment but its not as bad as the rest of his augments.

On 2024-02-27 at 11:41 PM, TeaHands said:

Health Regen would be nice but honestly slapping on Molt Reconstruct and having some way of reliably maintaining Energy (Zenurik, Dispensary, Nourish, Rage, Energize) gets Chroma through just about all content including Steel Path. (Only mission that gives me trouble is Interception.)

I use him for Archon Hunts every week and I can finish the final mission in about 7-10 minutes.

Honestly if they just allow Chroma to use weapons or at least melee while channeling Spectral Scream and letting him command the Effigy to Hold Position/Follow like Crew Mates, I wouldn't have any complaints about him.

Almost everyone just runs grace due to the synergy with health tanking 8n general plus chroma needing to take the hits to start his vex armor.

[TeaHands]

19 hours ago, Wolf_Dae_Legend said:

Almost everyone just runs grace due to the synergy with health tanking 8n general plus chroma needing to take the hits to start his vex armor.

Ah ok, I still need to grind and fully level up Grace. I decided to get Strike and Avenger during the Gargoyles Cry Event instead lol