Does DE realize how strong of a defensive ability eclipse is about to be?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

57 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

You do realize that Netracells is a joke, right?

For me and you, not 10,000 other players though lol.

[UnstarPrime]

36 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Or using Arcane Deflection which Armor based eHP frames are forced to use anyways.

In the rare event that I get a Slash proc, I just activate the Operator, thus making my frame invincible until the status effect dissipates.  Though if you find yourself in some sort of situation where you're constantly getting Slash procced (I haven't experienced it, but I won't deny it might exist) then this Arcane could be a more convenient option.

[Hexerin]

2 minutes ago, UnstarPrime said:

In the rare event that I get a Slash proc, I just activate the Operator, thus making my frame invincible until the status effect dissipates.  Though if you find yourself in some sort of situation where you're constantly getting Slash procced (I haven't experienced it, but I won't deny it might exist) then this Arcane could be a more convenient option.

Getting repeated slash procs is fairly common on Kuva Fortress, but that's about it.

That being said, Arcane Deflection is definitely a trap, and anyone who uses it is gimping themselves.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

I'm sure it'll be fine, and I'm also sure people wanted Eclipse to be consistent more for the outgoing damage boost than the incoming damage reduction: everybody wants to be the DPS, even if it means being a glass cannon.

I'm not even a huge fan of Mirage but I definitely like the changes they are making to her. I might finally be able to replace Quick Thinking with something else and not feel vulnerable to a light breeze.

[UnstarPrime]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

I'm sure it'll be fine, and I'm also sure people wanted Eclipse to be consistent more for the outgoing damage boost than the incoming damage reduction: everybody wants to be the DPS, even if it means being a glass cannon.

I wouldn't be surprised if most people are indeed all about that damage, but there are certainly some of us who would rather have the durability.  For me, I've got more than enough DPS, and I could get even more if I wanted to easily because stuff like Roar is right over there.  But reliable damage mitigation?  That's treasure, because it lets me have a more relaxed time.  (Part of that is surely because with my arthritis prevents me being a non-stop dodging machine)

[ECCHOSIERRA]

3 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

1. I'm pretty sure DE's designers understand what 75% DR means.
2. Abilities that allow survival?  In my Warframe!?  I can imagine that being an issue if half the Warframes weren't already doing it, with many doing it far better than this.
    

You actually have this backwards.  Warframes that already have powerful mitigation won't be incentivized to add even more because they're already surviving while just vibing.  The place where there is more likely to be a noticeable change is players who want to play frames like Banshee and Nyx without being so squishy; to frames like these, 75% mitigation will make a big difference and enable much more relaxed playstyles.

I kinda see your point.

3 hours ago, (XBOX)zThulsaDoomz said:

Rolling Guard and Protective Sling equate to 8 seconds of full on invulnerability with zero energy cost to energy and negate status effects.

There are way more overpowered options when it comes to defense in this game.  If having DR makes players feel safer, then why not?  It's definitely a way to cut into the Nourish usage that DE is concerned about. 

Not seeing the issue here tbh

Maybe i should have been more clear in the OP. Im not against it being a thing.

Personally I think it would be fine, especially when as someone else pointed out crowd control "turn the ai off" abilities exist. 

But, all I mean is I can see this turning into something that gets over used and then nerfed because its over used and then people get mad.

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, UnstarPrime said:

In the rare event that I get a Slash proc, I just activate the Operator, thus making my frame invincible until the status effect dissipates.  Though if you find yourself in some sort of situation where you're constantly getting Slash procced (I haven't experienced it, but I won't deny it might exist) then this Arcane could be a more convenient option.

 

It happens a lot more now than it did.

If you happen to catch two procs at level 300ish you can literally die in one second which can be hard to catch.

Many of my frames are built defensively because not dying is all that matters after nerfing enemy defense scaling. When you have a frame like Chroma that adds +940% damage, has 96% DR around 90k eHP but it's all Armor + QT and regens around 20k eHP a second. Deflection is an easy pick.

Something has to two-shot those stats and that's good as you can get with armor based eHP.
I mean, why do acrobatics to avoid RNG dead if you can just slot an Arcane and ignore it.

[Hexerin]

13 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

It happens a lot more now than it did.

If you happen to catch two procs at level 300ish you can literally die in one second which can be hard to catch.

Many of my frames are built defensively because not dying is all that matters after nerfing enemy defense scaling. When you have a frame like Chroma that adds +940% damage, has 96% DR around 90k eHP but it's all Armor + QT and regens around 20k eHP a second. Deflection is an easy pick.

Something has to two-shot those stats and that's good as you can get with armor based eHP.
I mean, why do acrobatics to avoid RNG dead if you can just slot an Arcane and ignore it.

You definitely aren't dying to slash procs at level 300 with those stats. Maybe you forgot to add a zero, and are actually talking about level 3,000?

Edited March 2 by Hexerin

[taiiat]

5 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

Though I'm not sure if I've actually tried Fast Deflection since the latest batch of shield buffs; maybe I should give it another chance sometime!

Shield Mods got massively buffed then - we can Mod into reducing the Recharge Delay now. vs never in the entire history of the game.
just not sure if Fast Deflection paired with Catalyzing Shields or Vigilante Vigor is better. stacking the two Recharge Mods offers an amusingly short Recharge Delay, but you may just end up getting your full Gate with Catalyzing Shields anyways and not need the extra.

i'd even say that as long as you can find space for it, Fast Deflection is one of the best Mods in the game. as long as you have Shields at all (obviously), it's a dramatic improvement to the Damage you take. Catalyzing Shields is pretty up there too, but on its own it does have some tradeoff.

[Hexerin]

42 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Shield Mods got massively buffed then - we can Mod into reducing the Recharge Delay now. vs never in the entire history of the game.
just not sure if Fast Deflection paired with Catalyzing Shields or Vigilante Vigor is better. stacking the two Recharge Mods offers an amusingly short Recharge Delay, but you may just end up getting your full Gate with Catalyzing Shields anyways and not need the extra.

i'd even say that as long as you can find space for it, Fast Deflection is one of the best Mods in the game. as long as you have Shields at all (obviously), it's a dramatic improvement to the Damage you take. Catalyzing Shields is pretty up there too, but on its own it does have some tradeoff.

If you're using Catalyzing Shields, the only other survivability mod you need is Brief Respite. Maybe a single Augur mod if the frame has high base shields, but you shouldn't be using Catalyzing Shields on those frames anyways.

Edited March 2 by Hexerin

[Xzorn]

3 hours ago, Hexerin said:

You definitely aren't dying to slash procs at level 300 with those stats. Maybe you forgot to add a zero, and are actually talking about level 3,000?

 

Base damage effects that ignore armor are a pain like that. It's always been an issue. Bleeds and Ancient Disruptors are the stand outs.

 

I think players take Adaptation for granted on just how strong it is. Sadly, it does nothing for these status effects. Maybe it was 2 procs, maybe it was 3. It doesn't really matter because it's an RNG death that I have no control over no matter how well I play. Why deal with that? I'm not really losing anything by using Deflection.

This is a clip from an old Mesa run when I used to make Youtube videos and Bleed did 0.35 base damage. A tick is 263 damage at level 170.
At this point a level 170 Eviserator has a damage multiplier of x44.

Spoiler

 

 

Scale the new 0.1 Bleed tick to 300. The damage multiplier which is now x104. That's an increase of 136%. More than double. 0.1 base damage just became equivalent to level 170 at 0.236 base damage for a bleed tick. I'm not going to do a full math breakdown because I think it's obvious how this ends. A Bleed proc will kill an Armor DR frame long before actual damage intake. You are right though. My Chroma should last longer which makes me want to go test if QT interacts correctly with the new statuses.

[Hexerin]

6 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Base damage effects that ignore armor are a pain like that. It's always been an issue. Bleeds and Ancient Disruptors are the stand outs.

My point is that slash procs at that level don't even get through shields, let alone become a threat to health.

6 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Maybe it was 2 procs, maybe it was 3.

Enemy status effects don't stack, you either have a given one or you don't.

6 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

There's some kind of bug going on in that clip, because the slash proc is ignoring your shields. Or considering how old it is, shield gate might not have existed yet, so who knows how things interacted back then.

[Tiltskillet]

21 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

There's some kind of bug going on in that clip, because the slash proc is ignoring your shields. Or considering how old it is, shield gate might not have existed yet, so who knows how things interacted back then.

It's just old.  Bleeds bypassed shields (as well as armor) before the status and shield rework in 2020.

[Xzorn]

1 minute ago, Tiltskillet said:

It's just old.  Bleeds bypassed shields (as well as armor) before the status and shield rework in 2020.

 

Yep. My point of the video wasn't the interaction of shields. I was just showing the difference in damage intake between a Bleed proc and normal damage. They don't seem to understand when you have 95%+ Armor DR that Bleeds are going to generally be the higher damage intake spikes.

[Hexerin]

15 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Yep. My point of the video wasn't the interaction of shields. I was just showing the difference in damage intake between a Bleed proc and normal damage. They don't seem to understand when you have 95%+ Armor DR that Bleeds are going to generally be the higher damage intake spikes.

Enemy slash procs only deal 10% of the source attack's damage per tick, and the only form of DR it bypasses is armor DR. Thus, it's reduced by 50% against your shields, as well as more based on whatever other sources of DR you've got on you (abilities, generally). Even if it breaks your shield (somehow), it'll still waste ticks against your shield gate before it starts eating at your health... at which point it's still being reduced by any non-armor sources of DR (such as from abilities).

Slash procs from enemies also don't stack. You either have one, or you don't. Enemies can refresh its duration however, and I'd assume it'll update the tick damage if a stronger attack is the source of the refresh. Even still, it's only one slash proc, ticking for mediocre damage once per second. It's not threatening at such low levels, especially considering pretty much all sources of ability DR are 90% (which reduces that 10% of source attack damage to 1%).

Edited March 2 by Hexerin

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

Damage reduction doesn't mean anything. At a certain level threshold you're still going to get one shot by enemies. Shield Gating is the only viable defensive option. (Also Revenant).

[taiiat]

_{personally at high Level i feel the effect of Fire Status more than Slash. some Enemy hits me a higher modifier Fire Status (so like, anything that isn't an Ignis), and i could very well die to the second or third tick if i was busy and didn't notice it being applied to instantly dispel it. i could tell many times that a Fire Status breaks my Shields in one hit, and the next Tick after my Gate wears off, Kills me. :^D
partly my fault if i don't notice in time to dispel it, but i can't always be seeing everything, so, heh.}

 

4 hours ago, Hexerin said:

If you're using Catalyzing Shields, the only other survivability mod you need is Brief Respite.

that works well too, yeah.

Edited March 2 by taiiat

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

Damage reduction doesn't mean anything. At a certain level threshold you're still going to get one shot by enemies. Shield Gating is the only viable defensive option. (Also Revenant).

 

You can beat scaling through DR. Players just don't work as a team anymore. Just like a team killed level cap enemies 7 years ago.

In terms of scaling this game was beaten already and it's only gotten easier. Mechanically I feel the game has just gotten overall worse.

Cool story, quests and little gems here and there but they can't even get the UI to function properly anymore.

[BR31]

I think it's funny to stack DR , but you have to pay some offensive or grouping/ stripping/ energy multiplication/orb generation opportunities for it.

and just having 75 % dr even with armor and adaptation is not that much for this investment and that many slots.

i'd rather go shieldgating route if i want it or just straight up to invinc,/invis frames if i need to do level cap disruptions, cascades or something
in this range.

and for other content i'd rather choose offense.

[RyllusPurple]

I can't wait to combine Eclipse with my MAXED Arcane Double back.

[SneakyErvin]

6 hours ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

Damage reduction doesn't mean anything. At a certain level threshold you're still going to get one shot by enemies. Shield Gating is the only viable defensive option. (Also Revenant).

I mean, you need to go deep for DR to lose value and it depends alot on the frame. Glass cannons likely already have all the damage they need so you can always go with shards on them for natural tanking and still go hours in endless. And 75% DR will be a nice boost to natural tanking unless you plan on going far far into endless on a baseline squishy frame.

So out of the perspective of "regular" gameplay that 75% buff will do alot to open up options for many frames.

Not to mention for Hildryn and potentially Harrow.