Revenant is too much of a crutch

[Lord_Drod]

21 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The easiest thing they could probably do is change most of the things to "when hit" instead of damaged. Exceptions could be Grace, Barrier, Aegis since if you are immune you wont need them until you stop being immune. Adrenaline and Rage could account for the damage you were supposed to recieve before the damage got ignored by immunity buffs. Guardian and Avenger could work for any hit recieved, since they both interact with other parts of a build and not only personal survival, like Guardian increasing Globe strength and Avenger interacting with how you've built for damage dealing. Two things that shouldnt be impacted by the "beneficial" choices of a seperate player.

I would never proc Avenger if they did that.  At least it can proc with combat discipline right now.

[Tiltskillet]

28 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

OG does currently count as losing health to trigger arcanes.

 AFAIK the ones that do work just have the general "On Damaged" trigger, so they trigger from health, shield, or overguard damage.  Grace, which specifies "On Health Damaged" doesn't trigger from damage to Overguard.  (Likewise Aegis IRT its shield damage trigger.)

That's my pedantic technicality for the week, I think.   Fortunately a new week is starting soon.

[Binket_]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

If somebody is slotting HA/Rage, it seems like they probably want to benefit from them.

49 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

OG does currently count as losing health to trigger arcanes.

I'll be honest here, it still baffles me that Combat Discipline DOES NOT proc Hunter Adrenaline/Rage.
"Oh, it'd be too overpowered" or whatever.
Yeah, as if we don't have Literal Invincibility: The Warframe right there in our roster. _{(That being Revenant in case I'm being too subtle.)}
... or Nourish to cap out your energy in literal seconds.
... or Gloom to bring the map to a mind-numbingly boring standstill.
... or Energy Nexus, giving us a constant 3 per second.

You'd have to run two mod that gives energy on kill from an Aura that slowly kills the user from said kills. _{(one that doesn't work if there's so much as ONE OTHER PLAYER running the same thing)} 
It's only giving the user 8.5 Energy per kill if you use the entire thing here.
You have to kill an enemy outright for this take effect, so you'd probably be better off just making more Energy Orbs via abilities like Fractured Blast or Dispensary.

But I'm fairly certain it's because of Nekros' Despoil augment, but to that I say:
You're running Despoil. The Energy Drain from that is no longer a thing and you have Health Orbs all over the ground.
I think it's more likely they'll run Equilibrium if anything. Saves them like... a mod slot and an aura slot.

Hell, I'd say this method sounds a lot more interesting and fun in the long run-- but what would I know, DE?
It's just silly on the double standard. They'll give us a hundred different braindead options, but the second tries to be a bit more extra and fun? THAT'S the problem?
... oh, but it will drain stacks from Health Conversion and proc Arcane Avenger.
DE's logic is as consistent as it is inconsistent. This is why we can't have nice things.

[Tiltskillet]

8 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

It's just silly on the double standard. They'll give us a hundred different braindead options, but the second tries to be a bit more extra and fun? THAT'S the problem?
... oh, but it will drain stacks from Health Conversion and proc Arcane Avenger.
DE's logic is as consistent as it is inconsistent. This is why we can't have nice things.

Honestly Combat Discipline's health loss not triggering HA is  just like "whatever" to me.  I don't think I'd mind if they changed it to health damage, don't care if it stays as is.  But in terms of small inconsistencies that grind my gears. Combat Discipline removing overguard instead of health--even though it says "Health" right on the label--and thus not triggering HA...   lol.

I still want to know if allies with overguard gain more of it when somebody in the squad has CD and makes a kill.   I'd guess not, but then it's really funny because "health" means one thing for the penalty and a different thing for the bonus.

[Lord_Drod]

Maybe DE needs like some stricter requirements for the harder missions in the game.  Then you won't see as many inexperienced players in those missions who aren't ready. 

I have no idea what those even are or what they should be.  It just feels like that's more of the main issue in this thread than revenant.

Interception seems annoying with these types of players.  They can't hold their own and won't capture towers.  You spend most of the mission just capturing towers.  

EDIT:  I had a nice edit, but lost it.  Lucky for you guys I guess.  Actually, unlucky since now I write something completely different.  I don't really run into 3 inexperienced revenants very often.  There's only archons, netracells, and arbi that have a anti death mechanic, so Revenant will be more common in those places. 

I see you want balance is all, but obviously you will see more of one frame that is super easy to get vs other similar frames that are much harder.  The missions are very short, but honestly it should not be a bother if you have builds that can handle worst case scenarios.  And there are worse combinations of frames for you for the mission, as far as slowing it down.  

So, I'm fine with situations that aren't the worst and just overall don't interfere with what I'm trying to do.  I've seen plenty go down hundreds of meters away from me, with no time to get there, even being fast.  I'd like that challenge of helping people, but its because I wanted choose to accept that entering pubs.  It's nice revenant doesn't have this problem.

This same logic has applied to people complaining about how others play in relics, like they should have some control over them.  Since we don't have actual data on % used by MR rank for that mission ( and yes, MR rank I think does present some interesting data for what people use), and we don't know what DE's goals are for that mission are far as distributions go, then there's really no reason to care about what anyone uses. 

As long as it isn't deliberately preventing you from executing the game plan.  The game plan which may vary, and may be more difficult because I simply didn't care to plan for the worst.  That's part of the acceptance of pubs, so its not really a problem no, certainly not a problem for us.

Kahl's Garrison totally disagrees with you as well.

Edited March 18 by Lord_Drod

[Binket_]

14 hours ago, Lord_Drod said:

Interception seems annoying with these types of players.  They can't hold their own and won't capture towers.  You spend most of the mission just capturing towers.

To this day, I will never understand why a player will just fumble around the center when everyone else is on a tower.

I'll be standing on one and I got two other people on the other towers... and while the Lotus yaps on about whatever, they're just sitting in the middle completely thoughtless.
... and when we got to another round, they either:

1. Continue to roam around pointlessly until someone tells them to.
   ^{(Even in that case, it's a coin-toss if they'll even listen. Since any attempt to tell them any strategy whatsoever is apparently an attack on their entire being.)}
2. Pile up on another's tower, throwing the timing of everything out of sync completely.
   ^{(This drives me nuts. There is no reason to do that other than being THAT stupid... or intentionally being a problem.)}

You know what? I get that DE rarely gives the player things to go off of, but it's kinda sad that a player can't put basic dots together like this.
Even the extremely dumb players just a few years back in multiplayer games would at least see 3 people sitting of 3/4 of the towers and than think "Oh, I'll just uhhh... manage the fourth in that case."

Now we can't even get that.
... but than you pander to the players who can't even do that and suddenly you now have players EVEN WORSE THAN THAT showing up.
Since those new players need the game to get easier and easier... it spirals into a everlasting bout of disappointment.
All at the cost of players who got some idea of what they're doing. Not even skilled players/veterans, mind you.

I'll be blunt, I'm only still playing Warframe because this isn't even a Warframe-specific issue. It's a problem across the whole industry.
Maybe there's a few Singleplayer games immune to this, but I've rarely found an MMO that doesn't already do this or is prone to going down that road.
Which as someone who loves Multiplayer games? This kills me.

 

It's why I keep saying "Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I like actually playing the game."
Warframe isn't beyond repair, it can absolutely improve in a meaningful way.
... it just isn't doing that. It keeps repeating this cycle of hyperfixation.

[Slayer-.]

20 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

To this day, I will never understand why a player will just fumble around the center when everyone else is on a tower.

I'll be standing on one and I got two other people on the other towers... and while the Lotus yaps on about whatever, they're just sitting in the middle completely thoughtless.
... and when we got to another round, they either:

1. Continue to roam around pointlessly until someone tells them to.
   ^{(Even in that case, it's a coin-toss if they'll even listen. Since any attempt to tell them any strategy whatsoever is apparently an attack on their entire being.)}
2. Pile up on another's tower, throwing the timing of everything out of sync completely.
   ^{(This drives me nuts. There is no reason to do that other than being THAT stupid... or intentionally being a problem.)}

You know what? I get that DE rarely gives the player things to go off of, but it's kinda sad that a player can't put basic dots together like this.
Even the extremely dumb players just a few years back in multiplayer games would at least see 3 people sitting of 3/4 of the towers and than think "Oh, I'll just uhhh... manage the fourth in that case."

Now we can't even get that.
... but than you pander to the players who can't even do that and suddenly you now have players EVEN WORSE THAN THAT showing up.
Since those new players need the game to get easier and easier... it spirals into a everlasting bout of disappointment.
All at the cost of players who got some idea of what they're doing. Not even skilled players/veterans, mind you.

I'll be blunt, I'm only still playing Warframe because this isn't even a Warframe-specific issue. It's a problem across the whole industry.
Maybe there's a few Singleplayer games immune to this, but I've rarely found an MMO that doesn't already do this or is prone to going down that road.
Which as someone who loves Multiplayer games? This kills me.

 

It's why I keep saying "Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I like actually playing the game."
Warframe isn't beyond repair, it can absolutely improve in a meaningful way.
... it just isn't doing that. It keeps repeating this cycle of hyperfixation.

I feel your pain, I hate that as well. 

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, Lord_Drod said:

I would never proc Avenger if they did that.  At least it can proc with combat discipline right now.

That interaction could still stay and count as getting hit, you are afterall losing damage.

21 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

AFAIK the ones that do work just have the general "On Damaged" trigger, so they trigger from health, shield, or overguard damage.  Grace, which specifies "On Health Damaged" doesn't trigger from damage to Overguard.  (Likewise Aegis IRT its shield damage trigger.)

That's my pedantic technicality for the week, I think.   Fortunately a new week is starting soon.

Yup, poor wording on my part, I ment to say getting damaged. Which makes it so odd that it doesnt work with Mesmer Skin, since something is removed, even if it is a stack charge.

20 hours ago, Binket_ said:

It's only giving the user 8.5 Energy per kill if you use the entire thing here.

And less than that depending on which frame. Some would get nearly nothing out of it to sustain themselves since CD is mitigated by DR effects aswell, so on someone like Gara those 8.5 energy from the two mods would result in 0.85 energy per kill, since CD would only deal 1 damage to her because Splinter Storm removes 90% damage. Which would apply the same to someone like Mesa that would otherwise be a potential candidate for CD+Rage if it worked, meaning it would in the end not be able to off set her drain.

It would be great on someone like Broberon, and he could actually use it considering how horrible his drain mechanics are when he starts to heal things.

[-ShadowRadiance-]

23 hours ago, Binket_ said:

Nourish to cap out your energy in literal seconds.

 

23 hours ago, Binket_ said:

Energy Nexus, giving us a constant 3 per second.

*Coughs in voracious Metastasis hildryn build*

Those are rookie numbers.

23 hours ago, Binket_ said:

they'll run Equilibrium if anything. Saves them like... a mod slot and an aura slot.

Alt. 2x equilibrium shards +1x energy orb tau shard if they need that modslot

[Binket_]

19 hours ago, -ShadowRadiance- said:

*Coughs in voracious Metastasis hildryn build*

Those are rookie numbers.

Yeah, but that's kinda my point.

It's silly how they prohibit certain interactions like Hunter Munitions/Rage working with Combat Discipline...
... but they'll allow things like Nourish or- as you said- Voracious Metastasis Hildryn which are far more spammable with a much bigger effect at less effort.

Which also tailors back to Revenant. He's extremely powerful for very little reason.
His kits becomes redundant by one singular choice and nobody bats an eye.
Yet Limbo has the ability to use his Rift and everyone loses their minds over a function that isn't even that powerful to begin with.

It's completely backwards with the worst part that a lot of players will deny the obvious because their set is "comfy".
They don't want to change so badly that they'll gladly neuter the rest of the game for everyone else to get it.

... and unlike some Veterans- who often keep newbies in mind- these kinda players don't care how much damage they do.
So long as they remain brainless, they're A-OK with it. Even if it means they're bored out of their mind.

 

Essentially, a crutch that very few will admit to.
It's not that they can't contribute, it's that they choose not to.
It's not that the missions requires their contribution, but rather it's notion of them looking at others like they're wage-slaves.
It's not that that they're comfy, they just take solace in the fact that they don't have to face the consequences of their actions.

... but when they do face the consequences, suddenly it's the most audacious thing to exist. "DE has done one hell of a tragedy, how could they do this?!"
It's happened with Maiming Strike, it's happened with Wukong, it's happened AoE Guns (namely K.Bramma and K.Zarr) and it'll happen again.

If we want to encourage these players to actually participate, you have to punish them for not participating to begin with.
It's like signing up for an event to do with friends and you just... choose not to show up, not even giving them a heads up.
Chances are? If you keep doing that to them, they're not gonna be your friends.

 

But hey, that's Warframe in 2024... I guess. _{One big "it's not my problem".}

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

It's silly how they prohibit certain interactions like Hunter Munitions/Rage working with Combat Discipline...
... but they'll allow things like Nourish or- as you said- Voracious Metastasis Hildryn which are far more spammable with a much bigger effect at less effort.

Plus with the introduction of Overguard there are a couple of frames that can become immune to all forms of external energy drain, with some also providing it to others. So allowing some other frames a way to regain energy with a combo of mods even when drained/draining wouldnt be too far fetched in the current game. Overguard completely trivializes the key modifier in Netracells that could otherwise be quite a crippling effect i.e energy drained per enemy within 10m.

Right now we have 7 frames that dont give a crap about that key.