Multishot formula suggestion to reduce powercreep and improve modding diversity

[Enxchiol]

A while ago DE had an idea about removing base damage mods like Serration and baking them into the weapons themselves, to fix the problem that base dmg was an auto-include in every build, so basically you had 7 mod slots instead of 8. But honestly, I think this issue has fixed itself, while you still always want to mod base damage, we now have quite a few ways to get that, and you usually don't want to stack it too much, so there's quite some choice there.

However, this problem still exists and is even more pronounced with another stat, Multishot.

Multishot has many benefits, it's straight up free damage, but it also gives more status procs and more consistency in crits and status.

Currently, Galvanized multishot mods are a must on every adequate weapon build(except for a few rare cases, like priming or Eidolons where you won't be killing with the weapon, but then you'll just use the non-galvanized multishot mod). So a singular, specific mod is a must-have in any setup

So, I would propose a different damage formula for multishot, where each individual pellet would deal less damage based on how many multishot pellets there are, but the total damage would still be bigger.

This keeps the unique multishot benefits of more status procs and consistency, but would make it so if you just want raw damage there might be better options.

Here is a comparison of the current damage and damage with a new example formula I brainstormed up. The x axis shows the amount of multishot on the weapon, and the y axis shows the total damage for a single shot. The yellow line represents the current multishot and the blue line represents the example formula.

For example, if you shoot 3 multishot bullets, each individual bullet would deal 1/(1+ln(3)) = 47.6% damage, for a total of 142.8% damage.

With a galvanized multishot mod, previously it would give +230% damage, so a total of 3.3x damage. With the new formula, that would instead be around a 50% total damage increase, so basically equal to a primed bane mod.

Spoiler

Sidenote: One issue with this specific formula is that for non integer multishot values(eg. 2.6), the average damage isn't quite the same as just putting 2.6 into the formula, but its very close, like within 1%. But I don't know how to make it work like that, I'm no mathematician.

I think this would help modding diversity, new situations arise where perhaps more multishot isn't the unconditionally best option to mod on, and perhaps you wish to install more damage, crit or fire rate instead for example, if you already have good enough consistency with procs or your build just doesn't rely on status all that much.

 

Edit: So people might think that why the hell should we just do a straight up nerf, so I'll add this part from my comment:

"I think if systems were reworked so that modding a weapon would be less of an exponential damage boost, then perhaps DE could make enemies and bosses that dont rely only on damage attenuation or straight up DPS cap mechanics. Because currently these mechanics exist because we have like 7 separate multiplicative damage increases, so the difference between a player using all of them and a player using only some of them is multiple orders of magnitude, so a boss with just raw HP stats will either be oneshot or a bullet sponge that will take 30min to mow down.

Of course enemy health and armor should also be adjusted in such a situation."

Edited March 19 by Enxchiol
Added nerf discussion

[MaxTunnerX]

Nerfing? No thanks. Forced config changes? No thanks. Next.

PS I do appreciate the graphs and seeing "log" in something since high school. Maybe use that for something better than just nerfing.

Edited March 19 by MaxTunnerX

[Fred_Avant_2019]

No.

il y a 13 minutes, Enxchiol a dit :

This keeps the unique multishot benefits of more status procs and consistency, but would make it so if you just want raw damage there might be better options.

We're long past the raw damage approach meta. Yet it's not so irrelevant it needs a buff. Just defense strip and then nothing else than Overguard is in your way to oneshot anything with your average gun. Does your target have shields but no armor? Use Toxin. Does your target have armor but no shields? Use Viral Slash. Does your target have armor and shields? Use a Magnetic primer then use Viral Slash. Multishot isn't even in the equation, it just makes each ammo point worth more value, so you basically shoot your target once instead of twice.

Is the average build for any weapon stale? Sure, probably. But that doesn't mean reworking what's probably the best (mandatory) stat in the game solves any of it. Consider this, would you even swap out multishot for anything else, even if it was nerfed? Probably not, unless you intend on using magazine capacity, reload speed or fire rate mods to virtually improve DPS, except energized munitions is a thing, and so are arcanes, both weapon ones and frame ones that specifically boost weapons.

 

TL;DR :

à l’instant, MaxTunnerX a dit :

Nerfing? No thanks. Forced config changes? No thanks. Next.

^This.

Besides your formula's wrong or you messed up somewhere, you've wrote log(x) in your graph but talk about ln(x) in your explanation but log(x) and ln(x) are two distinct functions, log is base 10 and ln is base e (euler's number).

You could've saved yourself the effort. Nobody wants this.

[Enxchiol]

2 minutes ago, MaxTunnerX said:

Nerfing? No thanks. Forced config changes? No thanks. Next.

PS I do appreciate the graphs and seeing "log" in something since high school. Maybe use that for something better than just nerfing.

Yeah it would be a nerf but i think it would be better for the overall health of the game.

I think if systems were reworked so that modding a weapon would be less of an exponential damage boost, then perhaps DE could make enemies and bosses that dont rely only on damage attenuation or straight up DPS cap mechanics. Because currently these mechanics exist because we have like 7 separate multiplicative damage increases, so the difference between a player using all of them and a player using only some of them is multiple orders of magnitude, so a boss with just raw HP stats will either be oneshot or a bullet sponge that will take 30min to mow down.

Of course, enemy health and armor would need to be adjusted too in such a situation.

[Enxchiol]

8 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

We're long past the raw damage approach meta

I don't mean raw damage as in non-crit non-status builds, I mean that is a straight up multiplicative boost to the damage of your shots, DOTs, everything.

8 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Consider this, would you even swap out multishot for anything else, even if it was nerfed? Probably not

Excactly, probably not, but as I said in a previous reply, I think it would be better for the overall health of the game and future encounter design.

8 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

you've wrote log(x) in your graph but talk about ln(x) in your explanation but log(x) and ln(x) are two distinct functions, log is base 10 and ln is base e (euler's number).

That's because I used WolframAlpha to make the graph, and in there log(x) means natural logarithm and log base 10 would be base 10, which is admittedly imo kinda stupid.

Edited March 19 by Enxchiol

[Fred_Avant_2019]

il y a 13 minutes, Enxchiol a dit :

Excactly, probably not, but as I said in a previous reply, I think it would be better for the overall health of the game and future encounter design.

Probably, but you also have to factor in that melee is a thing. Multishot helps guns stay relevant. Besides Warframe is also a game where you can cast all sorts of space virus crap onto enemies that linger until they die and spread it, among many other geneva convention breaking atrocities. Multishot is probably the top mod stat in the game, but that doesn't make it the most problematic thing about it.

 

If melees are too weak to compete against guns, increase their follow through value, if warframes are too weak to compete against just using guns, buff them/rework them. If instead it's an issue of us doing too much damage, rework elemental type effectiveness, limit the damage enemies can take through other means.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Enxchiol said:

I think this would help modding diversity

I don't think it would change very much, and some of the effect could be seen as negatives for diversity.   Lethal Torrent and Vig Armaments get used less, often replaced with more RoF or faction.  Primary Frostbite and Conjunction Voltage get used less, probably replaced with arcanes that are more used already, and discouraging the use of less popular elements.    Rivens with multishot would be somewhat less valued.  Anyway, something to consider.

By the way, I'm not strictly against multishot being nerfed, but I think it only makes sense as part of a large scale damage overhaul.

[Enxchiol]

15 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

By the way, I'm not strictly against multishot being nerfed, but I think it only makes sense as part of a large scale damage overhaul

Absolutely true

[BiancaRoughfin]

2 hours ago, Enxchiol said:

while you still always want to mod base damage, we now have quite a few ways to get that, and you usually don't want to stack it too much, so there's quite some choice there.

This is a very bad misconception the community has that stacking Base damage isnt good, i see often streamers making videos saying if you put something like Merciless Arcane on a weapon, that you dont need to put a Base damage mod on it and this is very wrong, firstly because the Arcanes require kills to start stacking damage and if you cant kill, you cant stack more damage and secondly because iv tested it with my weapons and my build has 3 base damage bonus sources and i have noticed very big differences when one or the other isnt present, when all three are at max i often strike enemies for 25m+ damage on my secondary.

Galvanized mods work the same way, you require kills to gain stacks so if your weapon isnt dealing enough damage from start to do kills, you wont benefit from their bonus.

2 hours ago, Enxchiol said:

So, I would propose a different damage formula for multishot, where each individual pellet would deal less damage based on how many multishot pellets there are, but the total damage would still be bigger.

I really dont see this as beneficial since you will have one pellet dealing large damage and a few dealing less or very little damage. What if you're using weapons with low accuracy or high spread? Theres a chance of that single pellet/shot that contains all the damage simply flying away is high, making your build completely inefficient.

 

 

[Pakaku]

Multishot is a better Damage mod, but it's also something that really only becomes most effective later in the game when you can really start stacking it. That's a sign of player progression and I'm not against that.

You still have drawbacks like MS being integer chances of firing another bullet, where damage mods are non-integer. And as pointed out, you still need enough base damage to actually start making kills if you're running any combo-type/Galvanized mods.

[Famecans]

I have problems with formulas equations, maybe I'm stupid or I appreciate cognitive simplifications.

There are other significant factors to equalize in the mathematical calculation such as the duration of the status, the accumulation of status tiks and whether the status is significant due to increased damage or accumulation of tiks.

For me, the multishot will only have equal utility to critical damage when the multishot mathematics is "accepted" by all enemies in the game, this in itself represents that the multishot system is perfectly balanced and synergistic with the damage system.

I believe that this entire logical process suggested can be completely ignored by the DE due to the existence of 3 modifiers recently released and accessible by any build: 1 faction mod + 2 corrosive green crystals.

[(XBOX)XYZ RUMBEL]

No