Hot Take: DE, please keep the Kid Gloves on Moving Forward?

[NeDesitVirtus]

Overall the Duviri changes have been tremendously positive. There is nothing and about the progression system being implemented. That being said, I never thought the Jackal was all to challenging even with the old mechanics. Buggy yes, but not challenging. 

There was that instance when he would proc an attack while one or more in the squad were trying to parazon. Not a huge issue but kind of annoying.

Moreso, the issue where he would get stuck in the air, bug out having to parazon multiple times before progressing to the next (third stage) and then the mission would be complete, etc. 

My overall take is that bosses shouldn't be nerfed but rather techniques like using operator to avoid beams be communicated. Maybe Teshin saying "Use your operator and go into void mode to avoid the beams!"

Boss nerfs just seem counterintuitive in a game where power fantasy seem to be the overarching theme. 

[OniDax]

Challenge or no challenge, high difficulty or low difficulty, I wish DE would improve the mechanics of the core gameplay - moving and shooting, moving and sliding - as well as enemy behavior and sound effects. I'd like a game where, after everything is collected, I still feel like I want to play because the core mechanics are that fun.

Right now, most of the discussion in the game is about what to collect, what to work towards, what to grind. People say "the grind is the fun." IMO, the grind is all they have, and they don't know what to do with the game if they have nothing else for which to grind. I'm guessing I'm in the minority here, but I don't play games to grind. I play because I want an immersive experience, and I've hoped over the past 11 years that DE would eventually offer such an experience in Warframe. I'm still hoping.

What I'd like to see is a number of things.

First, I'd like to see DE improve the core animations and movement system. I want movement animations, specifically walking, running, sprinting, and crouch movement animations, that are more natural, more human-like, as we see in the various cinematic trailers, and that are on par with the leading games in the industry. I don't want any change to the speed of movement or gameplay, but I want more natural, human-like movement animations. There's no reason a game like CODMW should have better movement animations than Warframe. I'd also like the same to apply to how Warframes hold more traditional guns, and I'd like for the camera to properly adjust to the Warframe's and Operator/Drifter's change in position.

Second, I'd like for an adjustment to the way movement works. Right now, the character moves like an inanimate object. When we move, we slide along the ground; when we change direction, we slide in that cardinal or intermediate direction instead of turning in that direction. The animations change to match the change in direction, but the change in direction isn't influenced by the forward motion of the character. The character should move along a curve when moving forward and turning, and should abruptly change direction when turning quickly. 

Third, I'd like to see an improvement in Grineer and Corpus enemy behavior that is two-fold: 1) enemies could respond better to player actions both verbally and in their counter-actions (i.e. Div 2). 2) I'd like to see enemies move more urgently by sprinting out of danger, sprinting to cover, crouching when shooting, and more shooting from cover. They do some of this, but they don't move urgently and they don't communicate based on what the player is doing. This would make the combat a bit more immersive.

Fourth, I'd like to see improvements to visual and sound effects, particularly with respect to explosion visuals and sounds, and sound effects for bullets and energy bolts flying past the player. Bullet whizzing would be pretty cool and help the player feel a threat when being shot at. Explosions could use a rework to look and sound more powerful. I believe that would create a more exciting gameplay experience.

 

Overall, if changes/improvements were made to the core combat gameplay experience, that would help make all difficulty levels of gameplay more exciting, more engaging, and more immersive, imo at least. If that were the case, perhaps more people would be a bit interested in higher difficulty gameplay, perhaps once they've collected everything they want to collect. Basically, give players a reason to play beyond the stuff for which they grind, and perhaps they'll play higher difficulty content for the gameplay experience and not just the rewards.

Edited June 21 by OniDax

[TARINunit9]

On 2024-03-28 at 1:35 AM, Monolake said:

Jackal is easily countered by operator void mode, how hard is that?

Second time I've seen this, what does Z-kid actually do against Jackal? Because all I've found the little twerp can do against Jackal is sit in Void Mode so Magus Repair (and Void Regen if I'm running Vazarin) until my Warframe is ready to try hitting the legs again

Oh I have issues with the Jackal fight, I'll admit it. Can give me trouble sometimes. But it has more to do with the fact that bastard can do a freakin' 720 spin in half a second, so if you're trying to hit the hind legs with a squishy caster frame you're in for a tedious exercise in frustration

[OneOmniverse]

I just wish they'd stop adding more and more resources everytime I take a break from the game it feels like they've added 50 new resources for this or that it's so overwhelming 

[rahetalius4.2.0CE]

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Second time I've seen this, what does Z-kid actually do against Jackal?

I'm pretty sure they're referring to the spin attack (the funny walls) you can just go into operator mode and hold invis and just wait for the attack to be over, no need to position or anything.

[UnstarPrime]

3 hours ago, OneOmniverse said:

I just wish they'd stop adding more and more resources everytime I take a break from the game it feels like they've added 50 new resources for this or that it's so overwhelming 

DE continues to produce new content, and that includes new resources, which ensure that long-time players don't show up to the new content, immediately buy everything with resources they already have, and then have nothing to do.

Broadly speaking, it's best to just pace yourself; treat it less like a task list and more like a buffet where you can pick and choose what works for you at a pace that works for you.  And if you ever get confused, a quick Duckduckgo search can clarify where to get any resources you're unfamiliar with.

[Claytosv2]

No more nerfing. Please and thank you

 

[helioth137]

yeah it's too easy now, it wasn't hard before if you knew the mechanics :< 

bring on the diamond path for players who are bored with no challenge xD

[Silvertap]

Is this serious?

Jackal is a hard fight? Really?

 

U wanna know funny fact: 2 or 3 years ago i let my cousin play some Jupter mission with a Modless Excal Umbra and Modless Weapons, his first time playing the game, dude didn't even know how to bullet jump, guess what happened?... He completed the mission no problem LOL - Six or seven years ago when i started playing this game, i strugled a lot to do missions at that same lvl with a way better setup, and that got me addicted to the game at that time (well i was a huge noob at the time). I mean game has been getting easier and easier over time... When Steel Path was new, it was hard, belive or not, now a days it is too easy...

 

What is DE plan here? - Wanna a hard bone? Here, take it, wait a sec, a let me munch it a bit for you, u know what? Here take this milk, isn't bones made of calciun, there is a lot of calsiun in milk after all... lol

[OneOmniverse]

1 hour ago, UnstarPrime said:

DE continues to produce new content, and that includes new resources, which ensure that long-time players don't show up to the new content, immediately buy everything with resources they already have, and then have nothing to do.

Broadly speaking, it's best to just pace yourself; treat it less like a task list and more like a buffet where you can pick and choose what works for you at a pace that works for you.  And if you ever get confused, a quick Duckduckgo search can clarify where to get any resources you're unfamiliar with.

Duckduckgo 🫢

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2024-03-27 at 12:56 PM, Binket_ said:

The only thing of relevance here.

If the lowest performers aren't progressing, it's most likely because they're either too stubborn to actually try or they were never actually challenged once in the game.
Honestly, the biggest "challenge" I've had from the newest Disruption is telling people what the icons are and what conduits are going up.

You can make content that's engaging without "challenge" too, but so far only Disruption has managed that.
It's a great gamemode, but it's not the ONLY gamemode.
When most of my gameplay devolves into pressing the same button with the same tactic with the same outcome? Over and over?

It. Gets. Boring.

DE, do your job. Said this every update because it seems the "lighting engine" is the top priority every time.
Tell the team in charge of that this: "IT WORKS, STOP TOUCHING IT. Go give those resources to the departments that NEED it, like balancing!"
No debate, it's getting annoying where all our fashion and hardware falls apart when somebody decides to touch the lighting engine.
Yet our builds devolve further into laziness and mediocrity. If we can't do fashion and we can't play the game-- we'll go elsewhere!

Honestly, this is why we're in this back and forth with community opinions. There's a select few that feels the way you do. A gaming company has to move with the biggest crowd so, if you think the game is mostly boring, you're actually in the extreme minority. Otherwise, DE wouldn't be doing this seesaw style of adjusting. 

To be fair, neither your wish for upping the challenge (and challenge types) nor the other players wanting to ease up on the challenge throttle are bad (except for your "no debate" comment. You lost the war right there). The problem is DE is handling both sides pretty well and most players just don't see it. The "turn it up and then dial it down over time" model is literally a player base voting metric for DE to use for that adjustment. It's just that the majority wins and there isn't enough of your type of player to to win the debate. Going your way may cost serious revenue loss. 

[Drachnyn]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb TARINunit9:

Second time I've seen this, what does Z-kid actually do against Jackal? Because all I've found the little twerp can do against Jackal is sit in Void Mode so Magus Repair (and Void Regen if I'm running Vazarin) until my Warframe is ready to try hitting the legs again

Oh I have issues with the Jackal fight, I'll admit it. Can give me trouble sometimes. But it has more to do with the fact that bastard can do a freakin' 720 spin in half a second, so if you're trying to hit the hind legs with a squishy caster frame you're in for a tedious exercise in frustration

Unairu armor strip works. Void mode lets you ignore the gridwall and mortar spam completely.

[TARINunit9]

7 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

Unairu armor strip works

Definitely useful

7 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

Void mode lets you ignore the gridwall and mortar spam completely

 

11 hours ago, rahetalius4.2.0CE said:

I'm pretty sure they're referring to the spin attack (the funny walls) you can just go into operator mode and hold invis and just wait for the attack to be over, no need to position or anything.

This not so much. At least not from my perspective, were people really having so much trouble with the laser walls they had to use Z-kid to dodge it? Maybe it's just all the 3D platformers I played as a kid but I don't register the laser walls as a threat that would NEED invincibility

And speaking of "were people really?" questions

10 hours ago, Silvertap said:

Is this serious?

Jackal is a hard fight? Really?

No and yes. Jackal isn't hard, but he can be very unfun and tedious in one specific circumstance: solo Steel Path Duviri if he shows up too early before you get any good decrees.

If this happens, get ready for frustration. You have to kill three legs which means at least one hind leg, and he is VERY good at shielding his hind legs. Right when you have a shot lined up, or when you're in position with melee, he can just spam knockdown shockwaves to send you back to square one. This isn't a problem in a squad, but running solo he can focus all his efforts on blocking your bullets while shooting you right back. And early run means fewer decrees means no cheese (like cold procs on all enemies to slow him down + double damage on slowed enemies). Oh, and did you think you could spam Iron Skin or Protective Swarm to cheese him with knockdown immunity? Think again, his stomps nullify ALL Warframe powers and THEN knock you down

So to nerf this obnoxious run stapler, they toned down his bullet damage, the AoE size of his grenades, and took away that stupid nullification on his shockwaves

[rahetalius4.2.0CE]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

This not so much. At least not from my perspective, were people really having so much trouble with the laser walls they had to use Z-kid to dodge it? Maybe it's just all the 3D platformers I played as a kid but I don't register the laser walls as a threat that would NEED invincibility

I mean, I don't have issues myself with avoiding the jackal's spin, and there's several ways to avoid it, including movement (especially since there's also cover so the crouch thing isn't even really needed if you're positioned right), but it's something where I can see someone doing it to get by if for some reason they can't stand behind a wall, or don't have the practice to use the movement to the fullest extent, (such as newer players, along the lines of just did TWW and are doing base circuit for frames.)

[sunderthefirmament]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

This not so much. At least not from my perspective, were people really having so much trouble with the laser walls they had to use Z-kid to dodge it? Maybe it's just all the 3D platformers I played as a kid but I don't register the laser walls as a threat that would NEED invincibility

I would just go into operator mode, toggle crouch, and then alt+tab to read the news or something.  It's not like the boss fight lets you engage with it meaningfully during this time anyway. 

 

In any event, I'm glad that rewards will be preserved.  Before, the Circuit penalized you for pushing your builds and decrees as far as they could go.  Now it doesn't.  That's a good change.  If someone is opposed to this change, they can always delete the items they earned "unfairly" from their inventory by selling them for credits.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

6 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

No and yes. Jackal isn't hard, but he can be very unfun and tedious in one specific circumstance: solo Steel Path Duviri if he shows up too early before you get any good decrees

I find the "can be unfun and tedious" comment to be a "workaround" type of way to say that the content is actually hard. I don't know why saying something is difficult is such a taboo thing to say in here. I've seen countless people get wrecked by the Jackal and they always say something similar...but I quickly point out to them that they just can't try to take the lasers and expect to survive. 

Like any game, it is difficult until the pattern is learned. After that, skill and timing does what it does best. It's a hella fun fight, and the "unfun and tedious" part of it is what makes it fun...IMO. That wasn't a dig on you @TARINunit9, it's just an observation of whenever that phrase is used, I notice it coincides with a part of the game that could be considered difficult.

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Like any game, it is difficult until the pattern is learned

Which is why I don't call Jackal "difficult." Repeating a pattern that's already solved is difficult; Jackal was solved on Venus, now you just repeat the pattern on Circuit.

The difference is, he's MUCH tanker, so you're spending a lot of time just to do a small number of repetitions -- the definition of tedium 

[Daddy.bulbs]

On 2024-03-28 at 4:14 AM, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Wait, so, let me get this straight... People find Jackal in the Circuit... "too difficult"? Enough to literally leave and re-start?

WUT.

Are you serious? No joking?

._. im with you on this one , i mean i know i play a lot but thats shocking to me honestly.

[NeDesitVirtus]

On 2024-03-29 at 4:21 PM, TARINunit9 said:

Second time I've seen this, what does Z-kid actually do against Jackal? Because all I've found the little twerp can do against Jackal is sit in Void Mode so Magus Repair (and Void Regen if I'm running Vazarin) until my Warframe is ready to try hitting the legs again

Oh I have issues with the Jackal fight, I'll admit it. Can give me trouble sometimes. But it has more to do with the fact that bastard can do a freakin' 720 spin in half a second, so if you're trying to hit the hind legs with a squishy caster frame you're in for a tedious exercise in frustration

You go invisible when it does the red laser wall 360 rotation and throughout that phase. When it lands or just before void dash to the center of him, exit void mode and parazon. Rinse repeat.

I tend to stand right in the middle and when his landing forces me back, I dash back in go directly into warframe and immediately parazon. 

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, NeDesitVirtus said:

the red laser wall

I repeat my question: is that attack really so hard for people to dodge that it needs a "cheese" strat to "counter" it? I might as well say that attack is "countered" by the W key on my keyboard

When people were saying that Jackal was "countered" by Z-kid I was hoping for something that kills the legs faster or stops the front legs from blocking the back legs

Edited March 30 by TARINunit9

[NeDesitVirtus]

53 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I repeat my question: is that attack really so hard for people to dodge that it needs a "cheese" strat to "counter" it? I might as well say that attack is "countered" by the W key on my keyboard

When people were saying that Jackal was "countered" by Z-kid I was hoping for something that kills the legs faster or stops the front legs from blocking the back legs

Well... It is what it is... efficient use of all means available...try it maybe? It's pretty simple really. I mean if you want to face tank the attacks and go down repeatedly, use your revives and so forth, that's a method too just not so efficient and definitely a waste of opportunity. 

As for your question about the legs, I simply walk around the big fella to leg him. Kinda like Orb mother when I do PT runs for credits but he's much smaller and doesn't hit nearly as hard, don't have to use an Arch gun. And you kill the spawns before you take out his legs. I don't know what else to tell you.

Maybe we can do a duo SP run and I can demonstrate and stream on discord. Won't be til next week though, I'm on travel at the moment. 

That's the best I can offer aside from what's already been provided. Hope it helps Tenno. 

Edited March 31 by NeDesitVirtus

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, NeDesitVirtus said:

Maybe we can do a duo SP run

No, see, let me repeat the problem from a couple replies ago: I struggle to hit his legs when it's an early game solo run. So...

1 hour ago, NeDesitVirtus said:

As for your question about the legs, I simply walk around the big fella to leg him.

Good luck walking behind him when he can spin 720 in less than a second

Yeah when we're running in a squad together you just wait for him to aggro onto someone else. Easy. But that aint happening solo. Thought you could go invis? That might work now, but he used to have Dispel too, so I was S-o-L no matter who I picked (luckily they took away his Dispel a couple days ago)

[quxier]

7 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

14 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

No and yes. Jackal isn't hard, but he can be very unfun and tedious in one specific circumstance: solo Steel Path Duviri if he shows up too early before you get any good decrees

I find the "can be unfun and tedious" comment to be a "workaround" type of way to say that the content is actually hard. I don't know why saying something is difficult is such a taboo thing to say in here. I've seen countless people get wrecked by the Jackal and they always say something similar...but I quickly point out to them that they just can't try to take the lasers and expect to survive. 

Like any game, it is difficult until the pattern is learned. After that, skill and timing does what it does best. It's a hella fun fight, and the "unfun and tedious" part of it is what makes it fun...IMO. That wasn't a dig on you @TARINunit9, it's just an observation of whenever that phrase is used, I notice it coincides with a part of the game that could be considered difficult.

Something can be hard & unfun/tedious. Or it can be hard but not unfun/tedious. Or Unfun/tedious but not hard.

Of course there is doze of subjectivity (especially fun/unfun). What's hard for you may be easy for me, and vice versa.

For me it's not very hard fight. It doesn't move super fast (at least in group!). It's just takes some time, depending on gear. Repeating same part few times is what makes it tedious. In laser parts I just wait (either operator/void-mode or hover).

[PollexMessier]

The progression save was just mandatory. It had to happen. Circuit is by far the single buggiest endless mission type in the game, one of very few that actively rewards you more for running longer, and is currently mandatory for end-game weapons.

People have to play this game mode, and do long runs of it, to get the strongest weapons in the game (Which will be much more important with the upcoming Archamedia gamemode). And that would be fine, if it worked. But mission-ending bugs are so common that the longer you run, the more likely you are to just lose hours of your progress to something unintended that was 100% out of you and your team's control. DE can't fix all the bugs, they've proven as much over the years. So keeping your progression on mission failure was basically the only thing they could do to solve this massive issue.

The jackal nerf tho..... that was a surprise. I've pretty much never had a non bug-related issue with the jackal. I only ever struggled on it once when I tried to fight it solo late into a run. If you can tell your damage or survivability is severely lacking and you try to fight it anyways that's on you. With the progression save, if you died it wasn't really an issue anyways. And if your power is low enough to fail on pre-nerf jackal, you're probably also gonna fail on a defense. The nerf makes no sense.

[(PSN)rexis12]

14 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

If you can tell your damage or survivability is severely lacking and you try to fight it anyways that's on you

I think that we also need to remember that Jackal can also show up in Duviri runs. 

Like I feel like that's something people forget, that Jackal can show up in the Mandatory Steel Path Duviri runs where you can beat most of the other Undercroft easily vs getting it at the earliest Undercroft level. 

Where the Undercroft levels are just RNG on what you get, so you can't really prepare for them.