PC PC Dante Unbound: Deep Archimedea: Hotfix 35.5.3

[NhChef]

I understand the scope being massive when introducing new features and balancing a game but, how do you release something that works so well and that it's so appreciated by your player base, and then completely ruin it a couple of days later instead of actually making the effort in tweaking it accordingly on what the few real issues are.

This is such a bad look for the company and the game in general.

[DeadxxSmile]

2 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

Quoting myself to provide additional updates:

We see that Dante's Tragedy LoS does not hit ragdolls and has issues hitting enemies in your general sight (as noted in this thread.)

We're testing a change to Dante's LoS that both effectively hits ragdolls and does the increased number of checks per enemy to improve the reliability of marginal hits.

I believe the phrase "missing the forest for the trees" fits here. 

1.) Dante's damage output was only powerful in LOWER TIER CONTENT. Even his own mission you farm him in, especially steel path, showed his damage was fair to good. There are plenty of frames that can nuke hydron without LoS and with no setup, stop using that as an excuse to have added LoS to Tragedy, it's just ain bunk. 

2.) Overguard amount was fine, again only overpowered in lower end content. Considering how deep in the game you had to be to get him, what does that matter? Changing his overguard for teams to an augment would make the most sense, since other frames easily beat him on overall overguard and would solve:

3.) The real issue some had that still isn't solved; overguard blocking abilities that require taking damage. Give people a setting to stop taking overguard from teammates or again, make it an augment mod. 

The last few frames yall have released had issues at launch that needed buffing or are still holding those frames back. You finally release a frame that's just plain good, not amazing, at launch and in two weeks make me regret the $15 I spent and makes me never want to buy another new frame. 

Light tweaks, not a nuke dropped on his head, is all that was needed. 

[Crisp]

Everyone was playing Dante because he was new, not because he was that broken to begin with, I feel like the usage stats we're just extremely big but he quite literally has just been around for a week, feels way too early to nerf or make conclusions, genuinely feels bad for the people who bought him for Platinum or even worse, the 15$ bundle.

Also Crowd Control was just already massively disadvantaged if you are playing a kill frame which basically has been every single new frame release, there was seriously no need to beat a dead horse and destroy CC even more..
--
Edit: Dante being released a week ago on average means that most people if they played and did not have other responsibilities in real life or a job got him only like 3 days ago because of craft times, excluding all of the people who might have rushed or bought him, he got nerfed for basically 3 days of stats for frame usage.. if you have a job then this playtime is even less.

Edited April 4 by Crisp

[Nero.DMC]

5 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

I have reached cap many times and such a boast means absolutely nothing.

It is an unrealistic expectation/gameplay style. The person who doesn't understand the game is honestly you. (And you secretly know it)

To expect the devs to keep characters in a state that breaks 99% of the game for the sake of the extreme select few who choose to play it beyond it's intended scope is a fundamentally flawed, selfish & self-centered mentality.

Was he and his squad immortal at the absolute final peak of the game achieved by playing the game in a manner that 99% of the players never will? No, he was not.

Therefore he should be allowed to trivialize the entirety of the rest of the game.

Understood. *Thumbs up* 

As for builds and experimentation? 

Considering you only care about reaching the cap; you are the one who doesn't experiment. It's meta or nothing. 

Spare me your flawed diatribe.

 

 

If its not a intended way of playing you should not be able to play that way full stop.

if they let you do something there is no excuse to not balance for it.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

9 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

Quoting myself to provide additional updates:

We see that Dante's Tragedy LoS does not hit ragdolls and has issues hitting enemies in your general sight (as noted in this thread.)

We're testing a change to Dante's LoS that both effectively hits ragdolls and does the increased number of checks per enemy to improve the reliability of marginal hits.

Just revert it to its previous functionality. This change is unnecessary and completely flies in the face of any "complaints" that were made against him. 

[JustinJustinJustinJustin]

So the problem with Dante is that he disrupts other people's gameplay?

How about like the same ten meta frames we've been using for years at this point 

Saryn can nuke entire tilesets by herself and good luck having fun if your in a party with a decent one because you will never see an enemy aside from status immune.

Octavia can stand in a corner of a room and spam crouch while listening to EDM and afk in steel path 

 

But dantes 3 is the thing that need most balancing? Wasn't the entire point people were complaining about just the over guard and how it effected teammates health mods? Who asked for this change and why wasn't oveeguard just the thing that got touched.

 

Why can't any other frame besides revenant, mesa, saryn, Octavia be stronger then average?

Also I know you guys really dont mean to release a frame and then gut them after a week like some kinda gacha game but it's kinda exactly what you did with quite a few frames recently.

Styanax, gyre, and now Dante.

[FloInTheBox]

DE strikes again!

After the Eclipse/Nourish situation the last thing we wanted is amother nerf.

... dante had his 5 days of glory, now its time to go back to the old nuker frames who are not restricted to line of sight

Unlucky if someone spent plat on the frame, and also the reason why i will never do it.

[Skoomaseller]

3 hours ago, Mazifet said:

@Skoomaseller as i know you are a certified arca triton BONK enjoyer

how does this make you feel

combos no longer consuming slam capacitor charges is good. infinite duration slam capacitor stacks is nice to have. 

changing how the dmg is calc'd is omega cringe. but hey I don't make the game so whatever I guess

Edited April 4 by Skoomaseller
grammar

[Thanathros]

11 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

Quoting myself to provide additional updates:

We see that Dante's Tragedy LoS does not hit ragdolls and has issues hitting enemies in your general sight (as noted in this thread.)

We're testing a change to Dante's LoS that both effectively hits ragdolls and does the increased number of checks per enemy to improve the reliability of marginal hits.

I am far more curious about the fact that this must be confirmed... post-hotfix? Has no one initially tested functionality? This seems related to a code fix, so I am genuinely curious.

That said, I agree with nerfing it; I disagree with hitting it this severe.

[sXeth]

As the Crowd Control stuff that missed in prior notes goes. 

Well, consistency is good. But are we ever going to see the other side where they come up with a soft/hard variation for abilities (although Impedance was already soft) instead of just canceling completely. Stun = Slow, Blind = Accuracy debuff, Jam = negative multi shot debuff… it’s not hard. It is concerning that Pablo has directly tweeted twice or more now indicating he can’t figure out Limbo or Loki specifically and a few other times about CC in general when this is basic ground level stuff you get told in MMO tutorials.

I’d reserve final judgement on Deep for later, but immediately I don’t want an even longer slog through the identical tile set and enemies every week. I had (mistakenly, based on the like a sortie comments) assumed the thing would rotate around missions for some variety). Most of the modifiers don’t seem overly interesting. 

Also Necramechs are the worst designed enemy in the game (I too love uncounterabke stalling mechanics with instakill damage reflects. So the modifiers that force them to be involved instead of prevented are just blegh. (Someone at DE seems aware of this cause they took it off the demolyst one)

Enough folks have covered Dante and LoS in detail of course. Seems like somehow LoS could only apply to terrain and not enemies and decor items.

 

 

[Waeleto]

10 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

Quoting myself to provide additional updates:

We see that Dante's Tragedy LoS does not hit ragdolls and has issues hitting enemies in your general sight (as noted in this thread.)

We're testing a change to Dante's LoS that both effectively hits ragdolls and does the increased number of checks per enemy to improve the reliability of marginal hits.

Okay can we please talk about how much the overguard nerf missed the point and every piece of feedback ? he still ruins inaros/nidus/chroma, he still makes the team very hard to kill in a certain level.

The only thing you accomplished by this nerf is how annoying it feels to stack overguard now, it's CLUNKY it feels bad and it doesn't fix a single issue 

[TheTundraTerror]

1 hour ago, [DE]Megan said:

For visibility here, we're actively reading your feedback on the nerfs/changes, Deep Archimedea, etc. 

We hear you on it all and are not taking it lightly.

Appreciate the constructive comments. 

We already told you the nerfs to Eclipse were too much and you went through with it anyway.

So, why should we even expect anything?

[EdinaMonsoon]

not sure if i just got a lucky loadout (Lavos/Kitgun/Aegrit/Edun) and a good squad but Deep Academia was a lot easier than anticipated!! maybe the next rotation will be the total opposite? lol

anyway it was a lot of fun, thank you for making something HARD hard and punishing if you go in unprepared 

[Jerovnikov]

I will not buy anything from you again. It leaves me feeling like I was throwing my money away. no to dante's nerf!!!

[Yulfan]

Il y a 1 heure, [DE]Megan a dit :

Fixed sections on the underside of Khora Urushu’s helmet and on her posterior not properly taking Energy color.

EFFING FINALLY! I had lost all hope to see this happening \o/

 

Ok now, you just need to rewire emissives colors on Sevagoth's Deluxe skin:

 

[madmaddux]

1 hour ago, [DE]Megan said:

For visibility here, we're actively reading your feedback on the nerfs/changes, Deep Archimedea, etc. 

We hear you on it all and are not taking it lightly.

Appreciate the constructive comments. 

i find this hard to believe with how heavy you nerfed a frame you said you wouldnt... if you listened to anything on here a hotfix would already be in progress and some forma and plat refunds would be processing as we speak...

[Hayaies]

So instead of fixing Chromas Guardian armor to have synergy with his OWN 4TH ABILITY, you decided to "fix" the wording instead, bravo. Less work I guess.
I guess I made a mistake repeatedly praising the new team for having a better grasp on game design and balance after the amazing release of whispers in the walls.
Now be so kind and also add the the mods description that you can go alt f4 if any of your shiny new frames that gives team wide overguard joins your missions, as apparently overguard both on enemies and allies is supposed to screw chroma over when using this augment.
The replenished duration also still doesn't scale with duration mods, now that you changed your mind on letting it increase indefinitely, how about fixing that part to be consistent with every other similar effect in the game

[STulio]

I haven't had the opportunity to play Deep Archimedean yet so I’m gonna refrain from talking about it.
On paper I see some problems that I’m sure you guys will tweak eventually, but reality may be different and things will be better than on paper.

Now, about Dante.
What you guys did can’t be called neither a nerf nor a buff, it is a mistake. I’m not trying to insult anyone here, I truly think you guys didn’t consider what was effectively done to him.

You changed a few numbers here and there but you only accomplished two real effects:
- Tragedy is now subject to an inconsistent system of LoS, where we can be 1m away directly in front of an enemy and have zero effect on him. This idea by itself isn’t the problem, but without considering that the LoS is heavily flawed in warframe, the results are the same.
- The change in Overguard gain didn’t solve anything, it only made it so we have to spam the same skill a bunch more times. You may think that this affects his energy economy, but in reality it becomes irrelevant and only makes him more of a chore to play.

My suggestion for now is to revert the LoS dependency until we have a better system in place to handle this, slightly reduce Tragedy’s range if you feel like it is too powerful right now(it isn’t) and finally, not change the amount of overguard he generates but change how it applies to our squadmates. A smaller cap in maximum overguard for our squadmates would reduce many of the concerns.
Another idea is to make his Overguard gain come from killing enemies, making it so Triumph gives a small amount of overguard but it can be increased in chunks by killing enemies, following the idea that the best defense is to attack.

Besides that, why not consider the idea of extending his protection to all allies, not only squadmates?
I’m not sure if it is a good idea, but all things considered, it makes sense.

Again, I'm not trying to be discourteous or insult anyone, I'm just trying to help you guys make the game better.

[Styx_Prime]

Nioe! 👍

[JustinJustinJustinJustin]

TLDR don't give a frame a chance until at least one or two months pass and the production cycle moves on.

 

My trust is tarnished 

[Gremlinstone]

1 hour ago, Joezone619 said:

and like that limbo is useless.

look it's not like he was gonna be used in there anyway, he's not exactly a squad-friendly frame. and playing this mode solo with limbo sounds genuinely insane, and I use him pretty much everywhere

[Aftokraftor]

So now Warframe is going the way of AAA games where they sell you something and then sneak the microtransactions in a week later? (example scum tactic)
I def would've just grinded Dante instead of buying the $15 bundle because I wanted to support DE
I guess I gotta start waiting 1-2 weeks per update before I commit to anything from them from now on

Def understand the nerfs but it really feels like you guys took our money and ran with it and that feels really crappy having been with this game so long
I've been through the Tonkor nerfs, the Telos Boltace maiming strike meta nerfs, whips and things no longer going through walls, but this just feels the most messed up of them all (to me)

Hope Protea Prime doesn't randomly catch a stray from being overplayed like dante

[Stomno]

hace 14 minutos, Aerikx dijo:

I have reached cap many times and such a boast means absolutely nothing.

It is an unrealistic expectation/gameplay style. The person who doesn't understand the game is honestly you. (And you secretly know it)

To expect the devs to keep characters in a state that breaks 99% of the game for the sake of the extreme select few who choose to play it beyond it's intended scope is a fundamentally flawed, selfish & self-centered mentality.

Was he and his squad immortal at the absolute final peak of the game achieved by playing the game in a manner that 99% of the players never will? No, he was not.

Therefore he should be allowed to trivialize the entirety of the rest of the game.

Understood. *Thumbs up* 

As for builds and experimentation? 

Considering you only care about reaching the cap; you are the one who doesn't experiment. It's meta or nothing. 

Spare me your flawed diatribe.

 

A lot of fancy to say you don't have arguments... next.

[madmaddux]

45 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

We're reviewing LoS right now with Dante. Can't speak to Khora at this exact moment, but the team has it noted. 

what about sayrn and mesa and revenant their not op with automated gameplay but dante was are you guys serious... LOS is complete trash i want my 5 formas back or yall to get your head on straight

 

[Darthplagueis13]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb [DE]Megan:

After much review and feedback consideration, we recognized that it’s not the damage Dante can deal that needed to be addressed,

Why did you, then?

Do you not recognize that what made tragedy good wasn't its damage potential but the fact that it didn't have a LOS check?

 

That's what makes a frame a respectable nuke frame. Not needing to have every enemy right infront of you in order to hit them. It's why frames such as Saryn and Volt dominate Sanctuary Onslaught and any other made that needs fast kills.

 

Also, you massively stifled tragedy's damage potential with the nerf to Pageflight already.

 

I'm sorry, but this is a classic example of a balancing patch touching too many things at once and going way overboard in the process.