Dante and LoS Issues and next steps

[Museigen]

2 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

Explain ?

What is there to explain? You seem like a troll. You main the still undisputed strongest nuker in the game and don't have hands on experience in what is being talked about, which is Dante. You're out of your depth. It's as simple as that.

Edited April 5 by Museigen

[Waeleto]

12 minutes ago, LordOfKenpo said:

1) For the OG issue, make Triumph only apply OG to Dante and reset the values to the original number. I don't see an issue with light verse still applying to allies as it gives a small buff but the amount given shouldn't hurt the build that need to take damage to play too much

2) For Tragedy, if you feel there really needs to be a change, remove LOS and just reduce the range to 75%. Dante is mage themed and mages tend to do AOEs. It feels bad to effectively remove the dps ability from a dps frame as badly as you did and this while weaker definitely wouldn't feel nearly as bad.

^

[DenisJaguar]

23 minutes ago, MetalMechabolic said:

OH BOY, I HAVE A GYRE!  Time to cheese content and destroy entire tilesets!

It is true, that is the way to use Gyre.

[AHendy]

1 hour ago, [DE]Pablo said:

We botched the LoS change to Dante yesterday, I apologize for shipping it in that state. We will be making changes later today to improve it, details ahead.

One silver lining that came from this mistake is that we have decided we will revisit older LoS checks to use this improved version in a future update.

Old LoS check:
We do a raycast, basically draw a line from you to the enemies center and if nothing interrupts the line along the way they are considered on sight. Raycasts ignore other enemies.
Additionally we had a bug that prevented it from working on ragdolled enemies, so if they were pulled by vortex or whatever they were totally invisible to the ability.

The main problem with this approach(aside from the huge ragdoll bug) is that a single raycast can easily trigger as false if for example there is a small railing between you and the enemy. Abilities like Radial Blind, Vast Untime and Rotorswell for example use this same logic right now. 

New LoS check:
First if the enemy is within 5 meters we don't do LoS at all, we just assume they are visible. Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Then for enemies behind you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet and if any of them are successful, then we determine it is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely.

Again, this should've never happened, but we will try to make the best of it, and hopefully the overall game will end up better for it.

April fools is only supposed to last one day.

[Nero.DMC]

1 hour ago, NightmareT12 said:

Thanks Pablo for explaining.

I have to ask, and I hope you guys understand where I come from, though, how is it possible during playtesting no one realized the mechanics could be overtuned? Combining Power Strength and lots of range is feasible right now due the state of builds, despite Overextended trying to compensate for it, yet Dark Verse is probably one of the biggest range damaging AoE abilities I've seen ever in the game. I can't believe no one tried to play in a squad with a high range, high strength build.

I feel something should be noted during the design phase, it's always more pleasant to buff some stats after a week than nerfing them, especially on a popular frame. May also want to dust off the test server launcher if possible for the future, or try to invite streamers or such to test the frames allowing them to showcase them or something.

Its not that strong, other frames already do much more than Dante...

they reacted because people liked the new frame, the numbers of Dante players were going to go down in a couple of weeks change or no change, but they got scared because they released something that actually worked fine and ppl liked it enough to drop other frames and play... they are not used to this, they release crap and no ones plays it, so they released something decent and got scared (even tho dante is nowhere near the really good frames)

 

[Nod_Legion]

https://clips.twitch.tv/StupidSteamySandpiperTF2John-qWt9OPuHGyqJlP6o

 

Video shows it all....

[lukinu_u]

il y a 1 minute, Museigen a dit :

What is there to explain? You seem like a troll. You main the still undisputed strongest nuker in the game and don't have hands on experience in what is being talked about, which is Dante. You're out of your depth. It's as simple as that.

I never said Saryn was fine. She deserves many nerf as she is undisputably one of the strongest is many field, and it's exactly the reason I play her.

Regarding Dante, I have absolutely no need for experience to provides an opinion because it's just simple maths, there is nothing more involved. Do you need some testing to say 1000 is bigger than 3 ? No (at least I hope) and the same applies here.
I would totally understand you view if it was a bit more complexe, such as a projectile with travel time something dependent on enemy group to chain, or anything that largely vary depending on the setup, but it's absolutely not the case in this situation.

[Simeoff]

59 minutes ago, Eggximus said:

This is a good change, thanks Pablo!

[Twisted_Wisdom]

31 minutes ago, [DE]Pablo said:

We botched the LoS change to Dante yesterday, I apologize for shipping it in that state. We will be making changes later today to improve it, details ahead.

One silver lining that came from this mistake is that we have decided we will revisit older LoS checks to use this improved version in a future update.

Old LoS check:
We do a raycast, basically draw a line from you to the enemies center and if nothing interrupts the line along the way they are considered on sight. Raycasts ignore other enemies.
Additionally we had a bug that prevented it from working on ragdolled enemies, so if they were pulled by vortex or whatever they were totally invisible to the ability.

The main problem with this approach(aside from the huge ragdoll bug) is that a single raycast can easily trigger as false if for example there is a small railing between you and the enemy. Abilities like Radial Blind, Vast Untime and Rotorswell for example use this same logic right now. 

New LoS check:
First if the enemy is within 5 meters we don't do LoS at all, we just assume they are visible. Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Then for enemies behind you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet and if any of them are successful, then we determine it is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely.

Again, this should've never happened, but we will try to make the best of it, and hopefully the overall game will end up better for it.

You (DE) botch it is an understatement, and yet you still aren't listening to the player base.
You are so right that this SHOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED and no the game wont end up better for it because players are looking to replace Warframe with something else now.
We are tired of being gaslighted. DE Steve, way back, said in a Devstream that DE wouldn't nerf the strongest frames/weapons but would work on bringing the rest up to par instead. Doesn't look like Warframe has reached this particular evolution yet and probably never will, sadly.
My clan and alliance mostly no longer play warframe for while now, and now i am losing interest too. I even made it to LR4.
The only way to 'improve' the changes is to remove them. They don't make the game better or Saryn, Mirage, Octavia, etc would have received the same nerf already.

Rebecca's hype was Dante is 'well-balanced'. Dante arrives and players go woohoo and spend orokin catalyst and forma on him, then proceed to delight in his game play. Dante WAS well-balanced but he was nerfed within a week. Does DE use a different dictionary to the rest of us on what 'well-balanced' means?

Now he is basically MR fodder. Its not like he could have cleared maps like Saryn or Mirage etc, so why rekt him this way?!
We were stupid, naive to believe what DE said about Dante. He came out of the box too perfect and now he is going to be Mastery Rank fodder for many players. Then your statistics will show he is no longer too popular so 'balance' returns.

Wtf do you expect with a new warframe? That EVERYONE won't use him as much as they can to get a feel for him and how they want to play him?
He was NERFED WITHIN A WEEK. It takes time to farm a warframe and 3.5 days to build it.
YOU KNOW BETTER THAN THIS AS YOU HAVE BEEN BUILDING WARFRAME FOR 11 YEARS.

LoS of 5m = face to face with the enemy. What Caster stands nose-to-nose with the enemy? None!
Takes more room than that to crack a stock whip effectively unless you want to wrap it around your neck.
Dante is a wizard warframe and his magic needs LoS to work... ludicrous!
LoS = now needing to use a LOT more energy because have to cast Dante's 4th a lot more frequently. Its not like we don't have to do that anyway and now we need to do it more frequently. On SP Dante will die casting 2+2+4 because his skills are slow even with Natural Talent. He is a busy warframe to use and you decided he needs to be even busier FFS.

So, when can we expect this update on Saryn, Mirage, Octavia and the other room nuking warframes to bring a more 'balanced' play style to Warframe?

[Museigen]

1 minute ago, lukinu_u said:

I never said Saryn was fine. She deserves many nerf as she is undisputably one of the strongest is many field, and it's exactly the reason I play her.

Regarding Dante, I have absolutely no need for experience to provides an opinion because it's just simple maths, there is nothing more involved. Do you need some testing to say 1000 is bigger than 3 ? No (at least I hope) and the same applies here.
I would totally understand you view if it was a bit more complexe, such as a projectile with travel time something dependent on enemy group to chain, or anything that largely vary depending on the setup, but it's absolutely not the case in this situation.

I also didn't say you said Saryn was fine. I'm saying that that is your experience, Saryn. You're biased. You're out of your depth.

[Ernis_Fresh]

Either everyone has LoS or no one does.. It's a goddamn PvE game. Revert the changes. If this is the hill DE chooses to die on I know I will be a lot more hesitant to buy anymore prime access packs or plat going forward and I doubt I'm the only one..

[KaosKuantico]

hace 53 minutos, KaosKuantico dijo:

We don't want a better Line of Sight, we don't want it at all. Remove it and we'll be at peace 

Actually, rollback everything and let Dante as he was, and make a way for other players to choose if they want to be affected by overguard. Those hotfixes are insane

[satyri76]

You say listen the community, it's false because all need to reverse the nerf and you continue in your line... i want a refound of my payement for the pack in market for 15€ and the time and forma on the frame !

 

LISTEN YOUR COMMUNITY !!!!!!!

[bokoblinprime]

Do you listen to the community?

[Zark_Manthra]

You guys love to claim that you listen to the community, but you've been proving more and more lately that you in fact do not, revert the nerfs to Dante for God's sake, most of the last thread was asking you guys to roll them back and I'm sure most of this one is too. It's S#&$ like this that causes our faith in you to crumble. Don't just give in when a vocal minority cries about something, and then when the majority rolls in to tell you that you screwed up ignore them?!?

[Giant_Dad_Prime]

Fully revert the LoS change. He's been out for only 1 week, warframes take time to farm, 12 hours for parts to build, and then 3 days for the full frame to build. There has been OBJECTIVELY not enough time for you guys to justify these nerfs with the given reasons.

Lastly for the people who need it, make Rage and Hunter Adrenaline proc with overguard. Then make Chroma's Vex armor proc both offensive and defensive buffs with overguard damaged.

[Shodian87]

Appreciate the information and update. I actually didn't know how LoS was used in the game, that was an interesting read. Looking forward to the fix and trying him out again. 👍 

[MetalMechabolic]

4 minutes ago, Giant_Dad_Prime said:

Fully revert the LoS change. He's been out for only 1 week, warframes take time to farm, 12 hours for parts to build, and then 3 days for the full frame to build. There has been OBJECTIVELY not enough time for you guys to justify these nerfs with the given reasons.

I feel extra bad for the people that farmed him considering I just paid for the pack so al I lost was a bit of cash.  Those that farmed, forma'd, and orkin'd, Dante must feel extra bad because time is much more valuable that a little bit of cash.

Edited April 5 by MetalMechabolic

[Twisted_Wisdom]

1 minute ago, bokoblinprime said:

Do you listen to the community?

DE gaslight us.
While back DE Steve said that DE wouldn't nerf the strongest frames/weapons but would work on bringing the rest up to par instead, but its been nerf after nerf after nerf...
DE Rebecca said that Dante was 'well-balanced' when initially talking about Dante, and later, that he was going to get a tiny tweak.
At one of the game events DE attended in the not too far distant past, one of the last things DE Rebecca said to us on stage was to call us LOSERS. Yes, the players that keep DE in business are losers...
Some jokes just don't work quite right.

[Stormandreas]

2 hours ago, [DE]Pablo said:

We botched the LoS change to Dante yesterday, I apologize for shipping it in that state. We will be making changes later today to improve it, details ahead.

One silver lining that came from this mistake is that we have decided we will revisit older LoS checks to use this improved version in a future update.

Old LoS check:
We do a raycast, basically draw a line from you to the enemies center and if nothing interrupts the line along the way they are considered on sight. Raycasts ignore other enemies.
Additionally we had a bug that prevented it from working on ragdolled enemies, so if they were pulled by vortex or whatever they were totally invisible to the ability.

The main problem with this approach(aside from the huge ragdoll bug) is that a single raycast can easily trigger as false if for example there is a small railing between you and the enemy. Abilities like Radial Blind, Vast Untime and Rotorswell for example use this same logic right now. 

New LoS check:
First if the enemy is within 5 meters we don't do LoS at all, we just assume they are visible. Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Then for enemies behind you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet and if any of them are successful, then we determine it is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely.

Again, this should've never happened, but we will try to make the best of it, and hopefully the overall game will end up better for it.

I wouldn't say you botched it, I'd say that you missed the LoS system just simply not doing the job it should be doing well enough.

Adding LoS to Tragedy honestly, was a perfectly fine change. I've literally just today practically carried 2 void cascades for 50m, nuking entire rooms perfectly fine because I simply positioned properly.
Level 800 enemies being nuked in a single cast? Yep, still works. I also had 0 issue keeping overguard up while continuing to nuke.

Spoiler

https://clips.twitch.tv/SoftScrumptiousTortoisePJSugar-Y28_FfaXGwyracw3

 

Please do not listen to the Armchair Devs. 

[CDXXKLLRLXIX]

My personal idea is revert the change to it being los but maybe the further an enemy is from you the less effective it is same with them being behind something, like it can hit everything in its radius but the further or if something is above,below or behind a door/wall its less effective.---and the radius could take a slight nerf to balance it a lil better

[MrDerpHerpin]

hey, i know this isn't the best place to put this here @[DE]Pablobut i refunded dante and forgot to remove the shards off of him before getting my refund, and i also didn't have the bile to do it, so please if its possible could i get my archon shards back? i had 2 tauforged on him and have already submitted a ticket. i apologize for all of this...

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

1 hour ago, Mohawk666ImI said:

Yeah cuz it's low quality feedback. You can just move and then do the final verse, you know, use some skill to know your positioning and what you'll hit, it's fine. While yes they have said it's glitched, the Nerf as intended doesn't stop you from doing ridiculous amounts of damage, it just stops you from mindlessly soaking dark and finial all the time. It makes you think about casting before you spam it anyway cuz you're just going to miss something around the corner,  2.5 seconds before you can see it and already about to cast it again .

 

 

Td:lr your feedback is bad and you should do better 

The change also targets how Dante doesn't need to even hit with Dark Verse for the ability to work which in a squad it becomes quite the the ridiculous tool, while if he did hit with Dark Verse then he's fine unless the player repositions themselves to a place that intentionally makes Tragedy not work.

[ReaperR33]

Here's the issue I have though: Why does Tragedy need this line of sight change at all when you still have to prime said enemies with Dark Verse that already has its own line of sight checks? This is not only a redundancy but Dante (aside from the spammable overguard buildup that needs zero enemy interaction) does not fall under any of the criteria of nerfs that Rebecca mentioned during the devshort.

Naysayers in here complaining about people complaining stating they want an easy game when in fact we would like some consistency. Saying one thing and doing another entirely just isn't it, and this overguard change 35.5 came with does nothing to address what people had an issue with it in the first place. Hoping you guys over in the office keep some of this in mind with yet another hotfix that did more damage than good.

[KRPDwolf]

Fully revert the LoS change. Is that hard to understand?