[Dante Unbound] Our plans for next week (35.5.6)

[Circle_of_Psi]

1 minute ago, MrDugan said:

I know I as an individual don't matter for much, but I won't accept it.  They're on permanent thin ice with me because of how many times they've taken things I've invested in and nerfed them into an early grave.  It's not even just meta stuff.  They nerfed the Arca Titron this patch.  And that thin ice means that they don't have to screw up much for me to stop playing.

I don't blame you, not a battle I can see them winning at this point, since there is SO MANY people against his Nerf, if it's ignored even more, I think people will just keep refunding and posting, if not go further 

But we'll have to see I guess

[Zomiku]

DE, I really hope you are all doing well and in good health, and that no tragedy occurs. Otherwise, I just can't understand why there hasn't been a response yet.

I'm not even asking for changes to be reversed. I just want you to tell us what's on your mind. Is it so difficult to come to us and just say something like this:

" We are hearing your feedback about the LOS mechanic, but it will stay because of this and that.
    We appreciate Dante's damage and didn't want to reduce it. However, to prevent potential abuse of his power in the future, we've toned down his effectiveness indirectly. So, the damage remains, but it now requires more effort to achieve.
  We've also noticed your messages about LOS issues after fix, particularly concerning players body-blocking LOS, FOV settings and Dark Verse being affected by similar problems. We are actively working on solutions and ask for your patience.
  We've also seen suggestions about allowing enemies affected by Dark Verse to be affected by Tragedy regardless of LOS. We're currently looking into this idea but it requires more time and testing." ?

Communicating with your community isn't that difficult. Even though English is not my first language, I managed to do so.

 

[LordOfKenpo]

1 minute ago, Zomiku said:

DE, I really hope you are all doing well and in good health, and that no tragedy occurs. Otherwise, I just can't understand why there hasn't been a response yet.

I'm not even asking for changes to be reversed. I just want you to tell us what's on your mind. Is it so difficult to come to us and just say something like this:

" We are hearing your feedback about the LOS mechanic, but it will stay because of this and that.
    We appreciate Dante's damage and didn't want to reduce it. However, to prevent potential abuse of his power in the future, we've toned down his effectiveness indirectly. So, the damage remains, but it now requires more effort to achieve.
  We've also noticed your messages about LOS issues after fix, particularly concerning players body-blocking LOS, FOV settings and Dark Verse being affected by similar problems. We are actively working on solutions and ask for your patience.
  We've also seen suggestions about allowing enemies affected by Dark Verse to be affected by Tragedy regardless of LOS. We're currently looking into this idea but it requires more time and testing." ?

Communicating with your community isn't that difficult. Even though English is not my first language, I managed to do so.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if we haven't heard back yet due to them trying to take their time to formalize their response before they do. I would like at least some response other than "we are listening to community feedback" and then announcing other changes that don't fix the core issue here. Especially when they keep closing and deleting threads on us

[CelticShaman]

2 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Seems a bit stubborn if you ask me, as long as they ever the other stuff, I suppose players will accept the LoS Fix

I will not. Now, I'm not saying I'm going to do anything drastic over this like quit the game, but I was fully prepared to drop cash on Protea Prime Access and now I'm not going to.

[Waeleto]

3 hours ago, Siic07 said:

Hotfix today to remove Los from Dante? ❤❤❤❤

Wait i'm confused, the hotfix is TODAY ?

[Siic07]

1 minute ago, Waeleto said:

Wait i'm confused, the hotfix is TODAY ?

I don't know,

I'm wondering if the hotfix will happen today

LOS is too bad I even lost the will to play over the weekend I hope this hotfix is today

[MetalMechabolic]

37 minutes ago, MrDugan said:

They were talking about the guy that fixed it on stream, and practically mocked him when they talked about how he heard about the issue and said he could fix it.  It should come as no surprise that they can't make LOS function properly.

Geeze, mocked the guy?!  Some professionalism, can I get a date or timestamp on that?  I would be shocked!  Well... not that shocked to be honest.   Also, the thread reads as "next week" as in it might be Thursday or Friday before we see anything.  I would really like to think they are not doing the corporation equivalent of a filibuster about the matter. 

Edited April 8 by MetalMechabolic

[Zomiku]

13 minutes ago, LordOfKenpo said:

I wouldn't be surprised if we haven't heard back yet due to them trying to take their time to formalize their response before they do. I would like at least some response other than "we are listening to community feedback" and then announcing other changes that don't fix the core issue here. Especially when they keep closing and deleting threads on us

It took a little more than half an hour to formulate an answer that would mostly satisfy me as a player (mainly because I tried to write it correctly in English).
And I've never even worked in support. However, I understand that when situations like this occur, community managers must address these issues and speak to their community. Not to lay out all cards at once, but at least acknowledge the issues that players are speaking of.

[Circle_of_Psi]

29 minutes ago, CelticShaman said:

I will not. Now, I'm not saying I'm going to do anything drastic over this like quit the game, but I was fully prepared to drop cash on Protea Prime Access and now I'm not going to.

o7

6 minutes ago, MetalMechabolic said:

Geeze, mocked the guy?!  Some professionalism, can I get a date or timestamp on that?  I would be shocked!  Well... not that shocked to be honest.   Also, the thread reads as "next week" as in it might be Thursday or Friday before we see anything.  I would really like to think they are not doing the corporation equivalent of a filibuster about the matter. 

I'm sorry, what!?

31 minutes ago, LordOfKenpo said:

I wouldn't be surprised if we haven't heard back yet due to them trying to take their time to formalize their response before they do.

How long does it take to formalize a response lol?

[LordOfKenpo]

5 minutes ago, Siic07 said:

I don't know,

I'm wondering if the hotfix will happen today

LOS is too bad I even lost the will to play over the weekend I hope this hotfix is today

Regardless we should keep the threads going so DE knows that we haven't forgotten about this over the weekend and still expect them to revert the LOS change. LOS in a game like warframe is bad just because it makes frames more or less effective based on what tile/tile set they are on and what the user setting are. Neither of those should affect the ability of a frame to play and yet they both do for LOS. 

While I don't think Dante is unplayable and I still enjoy him, this has made him much harder and less fun to play. I found lots of annoyance with how I used to play involving casting tragedy mid-jump that now doesn't work as he loses LOS on the enemies in order to jump in the right direction as I move so in a group, they tend to kill things before I get to them since I have to change directions constantly for enough time to cast 3 abilities in order to clear enemies on SP. The Mirage was nuking way faster than I was able to even before the nerf so I don't see why this was necessary

[Zomiku]

7 minutes ago, MetalMechabolic said:

Geeze, mocked the guy?!  Some professionalism, can I get a date or timestamp on that?  I would be shocked!  Well... not that shocked to be honest.   Also, the thread reads as "next week" as in it might be Thursday or Friday before we see anything.  I would really like to think they are not doing the corporation equivalent of a filibuster about the matter. 

I really hope they are not planning to release a hotfix on Friday and then take the weekend off, leaving us without answers again.

[LordOfKenpo]

3 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

9 minutes ago, MetalMechabolic said:

Geeze, mocked the guy?!  Some professionalism, can I get a date or timestamp on that?  I would be shocked!  Well... not that shocked to be honest.   Also, the thread reads as "next week" as in it might be Thursday or Friday before we see anything.  I would really like to think they are not doing the corporation equivalent of a filibuster about the matter. 

I'm sorry, what!?

It didn't sound like mocking to me when I heard them talk about it, it sounded more like complimenting.

 

4 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

How long does it take to formalize a response lol?

I wouldn't be surprised if they wanted to take the weekend to make sure they get it right, but I don't know what they are thinking so all I can do is speculate

[Siic07]

4 minutes ago, LordOfKenpo said:

Regardless we should keep the threads going so DE knows that we haven't forgotten about this over the weekend and still expect them to revert the LOS change. LOS in a game like warframe is bad just because it makes frames more or less effective based on what tile/tile set they are on and what the user setting are. Neither of those should affect the ability of a frame to play and yet they both do for LOS. 

While I don't think Dante is unplayable and I still enjoy him, this has made him much harder and less fun to play. I found lots of annoyance with how I used to play involving casting tragedy mid-jump that now doesn't work as he loses LOS on the enemies in order to jump in the right direction as I move so in a group, they tend to kill things before I get to them since I have to change directions constantly for enough time to cast 3 abilities in order to clear enemies on SP. The Mirage was nuking way faster than I was able to even before the nerf so I don't see why this was necessary

LOS it's too bad

I get angry with several times enemies in front of me don't take any damage

[Zomiku]

I'm also curious, Tenno, what do you think?
If using weapons becomes more reliable and efficient than using warframe abilities at some point, doesn't it defeat the purpose of warframe? Isn't that already a balance issue?

[FaraTenno]

17 minutes ago, Zomiku said:

I really hope they are not planning to release a hotfix on Friday and then take the weekend off, leaving us without answers again.

I'm 100% expecting this.
They're avoiding giving us a response because they don't have one that makes sense, so they were just hoping we accept the LoS after settling over the weekend. 
We didn't. We still want it gone.
But they won't remove it. Instead, we will likely see a hotfix around Wednesday/Thursday which will attempt to address LoS again, which will also ignore the changes people want reverted from Nezha's brand new augment and the Arca Titron, we will continue to be outraged, and then we will be given a statement on Friday about how they'll be taking the weekend to review Dante and the frames people have been comparing him to. This will either result in an LoS removal on Dante, or a wave of DPS frames getting nerfed.
Or, absolutely nothing could happen. This would not be the first time DE completely ignored the community's opinion.

It's not like we aren't trying to make LoS work, or at least I am. I have since tried to modify my Dante build to account for bringing enemies together to avoid LoS bugs, and it is not worth it.
I am not only sacrificing other essential parts of my build to get this functionality now, exposing more weaknesses on Dante while getting an inconsistent reward, but the ability is a straight up distraction at this point.

Previously, thanks to the use of Arcane Steadfast, I could multi-cast Dark Verse about 4 times, spreading slash procs around crowds and light them all up like fireworks with Tragedy.
Now, doing this with Dark Verse is essentially just a DoT spam, and not a very efficient one at that, and the risk of Tragedy not giving me the full payoff leads me to never cast 3 or 4.

I am essentially building Dante to be as useful as possible without his abilities, and at that point, why the f*ck am I playing Dante? I could play Frost if I wanted absurd Overguard generation, and at least he gets to strip armor at the same time. I could also play Styanax, another frame who gives himself Overguard while pumping slash procs into his opponents.
The question you may be asking is, "Why don't you play these frames then?"

I do. I just want to enjoy the new frame that I invested real money into, to support the dev's efforts in recent updates while also skipping the grind that was ahead of me.
How ironic that one of the only times I decide to do that, my reward for doing so is broken in half and given back to me. Then, when I ask why it is broken, the person who broke it acts as though it is undamaged.

[[DE]Momaw]

2 hours ago, crazywolfpusher said:

Mesa fire rate is also affected by player FPS cap.

We just tested this as both host and client and didn't see an obvious difference in how long it takes to kill an enemy between being capped at 30fps versus the host running unlimited on a high spec PC (over 400fps).

If you're seeing an issue with Peacemaker time-to-kill being affected by frame rate that can be verified with a video recording and a stopwatch, we need more details how to set up the test 😅

[Circle_of_Psi]

4 minutes ago, FaraTenno said:

I'm 100% expecting this.

They're avoiding giving us a response because they don't have one that makes sense, so they were just hoping we accept the LoS after settling over the weekend. 
We didn't. We still want it gone.
But they won't remove it. Instead, we will likely see a hotfix around Wednesday/Thursday which will attempt to address LoS again, which will also ignore the changes people want reverted from Nezha's brand new augment and the Arca Titron, we will continue to be outraged, and then we will be given a statement on Friday about how they'll be taking the weekend to review Dante and the frames people have been comparing him to. This will either result in an LoS removal on Dante, or a wave of DPS frames getting nerfed. Or, absolutely nothing could happen. This would not be the first time DE completely ignored the community's opinion.

More then likely yeah

[FaraTenno]

Choosing to only respond to one of the few responses in this thread that isn't about Dante is not helping your case. Just putting that out there.

[Tecstasy]

4 minutes ago, FaraTenno said:

Choosing to only respond to one of the few responses in this thread that isn't about Dante is not helping your case. Just putting that out there.

Like for real

[crazywolfpusher]

4 minutes ago, [DE]Momaw said:

We just tested this as both host and client and didn't see an obvious difference in how long it takes to kill an enemy between being capped at 30fps versus the host running unlimited on a high spec PC (over 400fps).

If you're seeing an issue with Peacemaker time-to-kill being affected by frame rate that can be verified with a video recording and a stopwatch, we need more details how to set up the test 😅

Never tested it myself since I only play at 60fps but i'll refer to these two videos:

I know the first one is very old and it was filmed after an update that was meant fix the issue.

 

and the a most recent one, after the Gargoyle event when people were capping their FPS to bypass dmg attenuation. 2:54 is the Mesa bit

I guess to test it you gonna need a high fire rate Mesa build.

Amalgam Furax Body Count +45% FR, Arcane Velocity +120% FR, Reinforced Bond +60% FR, Anemic Agility +90% FR, Lethal Torrent +60% FR. 

[LordOfKenpo]

21 minutes ago, [DE]Momaw said:

We just tested this as both host and client and didn't see an obvious difference in how long it takes to kill an enemy between being capped at 30fps versus the host running unlimited on a high spec PC (over 400fps).

If you're seeing an issue with Peacemaker time-to-kill being affected by frame rate that can be verified with a video recording and a stopwatch, we need more details how to set up the test 😅

@[DE]Momaw Thank you for investigating that, but there are 24 other pages of comments that I think most people would also like addressed, and 35 on another thread

Edited April 8 by LordOfKenpo

[OneOmniverse]

15 hours ago, (XBOX)toughdragon17 said:

Dante is not broken and never was he was the purfect frame at the time for regular and sp and did infact need some input and skill if you wanted to be good with him  purfect down to the last detail  and im never brainless when I play warframe I keep every bit of my surroundings in my head enemy count, objects, everything 

Nope I actually wanted him to be one of my main frames for a while maby a year or two and to be honest I dont watch tik tok or much of anything besides my shows on Netflix usually 

 

Same :/ my last main was citrine and that was ages ago just wanted something new but nope smh

[Ellniko75]

hace 11 horas, Mayhem-Ivory dijo:

It's nice of you finally fix the line of sight system, but that's not what anybody wants for Dante. It needs to go completely.

Your "reasoning" for adding it was nonsense to begin with:

• Could be cast back to back without much forethought on positioning

This is wrong. Just straight objectively incorrect. What you would actually do is use his Dark Verse against different groups of enemies in different locations, then seek out a point where you can detonate them all with Tragedy. That is because Tragedy is expensive, and you want to cast it as little as possible!

• to make it a more active ability, enemies must now be within range in your line of sight

Again, objectively incorrect. You don't even understand the consequences of this change. The result now is that, rather than thinking and using it tactically, you get forced to use Tragedy in every single group of enemies. Just because you need to cast it more often, doesnt mean the ability is "more active"; its just brainless spam. Dark Verse already had LoS, thus forcing you to "be active" by running around to find enemies.

The problem isn't a nerf or fumbled LoS; the problem is he's no longer fun the way he was before, because his entire "tag for destruction" playstyle is gone!

And P.S. "more active ability" doesnt exist. This combination of words doesnt mean anything. An ability/playstyle can be pro-active, which the old Tragedy was (something like Gauss Mach Crush augment), it can be inter-active, which the old Tragedy was (and the old Eclipse); but being active just means that you use it. With the old Tragedy, you would "actively" run around, pro-actively seek out groups to tag with Dark Verse, and inter-actively manage your casting to limit the energy you consume. This is all gone now. Now you "actively" spam abilities on whats infront of you, with no forethought about when to use what.

I gave you the weekend, but I'm not going to just let you get away with this nonsense.

 

Let me just give an analogy for what you did with Dante and his Tragedy:

You know tose weapons that can be placed in locations and detonated later? Things like the Penta, Castanas, Talons, or most recently the Aegrit. You throw them into places or onto enemies, and then you press a button and they go boom.

All these weapons are already not good; more appropriate to say, they are all bad.

Now, imagine if these weapons required Line of Sight and had a maximum range as well while we're at it. Imagine they had a timer, and you'd just lose the grenade along with the ammo you spent if you dont trigger them within a few seconds while looking at them and within range. Suddenly they would feel pretty awful; you couldn't even move through a curved hallway without them being deactivated automatically.

Thats what you did to Dante. He tags enemies - and he is supposed to be able to move around and tag a lot of groups - but now if he is in the wrong place, its impossible for him to detonate the tagged enemies.

It's not fun. I had fun, now I don't. That is why I'm upset.

 

There is ways to solve this, but it must be done in the spirit of Dante's playstyle.

• Remove the LoS from Tragedy. Reduce or even remove the initial damage that is independant of status effects (seriously, 6500? could just be 500).
• Remove the LoS from Tragedy. Limit its effect to Slash procs or even just Dark Verse exclusively.
• Remove the LoS from Tragedy. Reduce it's range from 30 to 25 or even 20 meters to match Dark Verse more closely.
• Keep the LoS for other player's procs, but add a "marking" effect to Dark Verse that allows tagged enemies to be attacked with Tragedy through walls.
• Give the LoS Punch Through, allowing it to ignore LoS in a limited manner; something like 5 meters scaling with Ability Range.
• Remove LoS from Tragedy. Increase the casting cost of both Light Verse and Dark Verse from 25 to 35 or even 50. That would be the easiest way to address the "issue" of his abilities being cast "back to back".

 

Other issues can be addressed independently. The damage increases and overguard increases you are promising here don't help with the actual gameplay issues Dante has.

• If the Overguard is too overbearing, just have the maximum and gain scale with enemy level. This could be a flat value drawn from surrounding enemies or a damage absorption multiplier like many other frames (think a mix of Rhino's Iron Skin and Harrow's Covenant).
• The damage of Wordwarden is not the issue. Rather, it doesn't really add anything beyond damage. It has the same elements as Noctua (not that Noctua could benefit from more elements, since Galvaniced Shot doesn't work correctly on it). Neither can it be used to benefit from Tome mods (neither Invocations nor Canticles). Tome mods are supposed to be the specialty of Noctua, but since the Wordwarden is just a damage copy of it, there is not synergy.
• Pageflight gives zero agency to the player. It is also often ineffective - the damage multiplier doesn't do anything unless it is on the right enemy. The birds could fly towards the reticle when aiming down sight (similar to Sevagoth's Reap; in fact I had a bug in the simulacrum where they briefly functioned that way), or they could focus their attacks on enemies tagged by Dark Verse.

Hey, look at that, someone that actually thought about the implications of adding line of sight to the ability, and how it makes the frame much more stationary and boring to play. 

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

3 hours ago, LordOfKenpo said:

Don't forget its affected by player settings since FoV affects it as well

That just makes it even worse 

It needs one of your settings to even be decently playable that just makes it even crapyer of a mechanic 

[tartcactus]

19 hours ago, Binket_ said:

Judging by the fact that the reply you quoted seems to be in Russian when I'm typing in English? I'll assume not you, because your translator broke.
Besides, this isn't TikTok. It's the FORUMS. A place where you're going to see text explaining why things break.

Than again, I can see why people instantly raise their pitchforks. God forbid they take up basic literacy!~

1. I think his OG was overtuned to lunacy. He still does lots of damage, no matter if it's a Line-of-Sight nerf or whatever else.
2. I play pretty exclusively Steel Path because everything else gets boring for me.
3. If you lump "initial levels" in with Steel Path, DE themselves have said that "Level Cap isn't the metric they wanna design the game for".
   It's a byproduct of tons of morons demanding more and more power until Level Cap became a joke. Only so much DE can do there.

If you stand completely still in a room with Level 300+ enemies? Yes, you'll die quickly.
That can be said for pretty much every Warframe. The only ones that can are ones like Octavia and Revenant.
One who get extremely bad reps BECAUSE of that.

Add some basic movement though and-- WOW.
His survivability skyrockets because he's not soaking every bullet on the map!

It's almost like there's a reason standing completely still and/or directly in enemy fire is a stupid idea!

 

 Manually choosing to ignore the rest.

 

... and I'm going to assume it's most the Mobile players too.

The ones who are likely coming from games with a much more "Pay to Win" mindset.
Mobile Players- with their time with Gacha and Extreme FOMO tactics- have such a loose wallet because they expect their purchases to win every time.

So when a Warframe comes out that utterly demolishes balance? That's NORMAL for them.
When they see a 80$ Price Tag? That's CHEAP for them.
If you say they need to put in some actual effort to understand the game? They'll go into a feral rage and deny it all.

Thanks DE, I warned everyone this was gonna happen!
Oh well, I hope the extra """Credit Caches""" _{(Mobile Players)} were worth it!

 

I have to ask, mainly out of morbid curiosity:
What exactly does Dante give that no other Warframe can for ya?

Because from the way I see you describing it, it's entirely possible to just like... play Ember for functionally the same kit.

 

I'd argue it's more that Warframe itself has no competition coming anywhere close to it.

You got ULTRAKILL, maybe-- but that's a singleplayer game. That would only fit a niche of the audience... and even than, it's not inherently as updated as a live service game.
Than you have Duet Night Abyss on the horizon, but that might not better. It looks promising, but it also looks like it'll have some flaws.
I originally dropped the game to play PSO2, but SEGA killed that off faster than I'd like to admit.

I feel DE is- unfortunately- governed by the fact that their game is a god damn miracle to exist.
... which is also why a lot of Warframe players would be FURIOUS if it goes to some unbalanced, unhinged direction.

So I get your anger, but it's really a difficult game to match.
That being said, if all else? I REALLY hope Duet Night Abyss gives DE something they have to contest against if all else.

 

A lot of players wanted Dante to be toned down. His Overguard made the game way too easy for most and ruined any kind of fun they can have.
Tragedy having Line-of-Sight is probably one of the least dangerous nerfs they could've given him. Especially if they iron out the problems with it.

Granted, if you want to blame DE for not hearing the basic obvious things? They're certainly to blame for that.
Reb's own response outright was "Lmao, we won't" to Auto-Melee getting a toggle. Something I've been wanting for a good while now.
^{... and before anyone gets any stupid ideas? No, I want it because it's bugged on me a number of times making missions unplayable. Precision is just the extra reason.}

 

Buddy, the Heirloom pack exists.
That notion went out the window looooong before that even.

 

Reducing it's damage was my initial thought, but after I saw the Line-of-Sight nerf? I figured that would be better IF they properly implemented it.
While they didn't, I was surprised that they caught on that it was broken as quickly as they did.

The problem with the LoS as it stands? It's not accounting for enemies behind other enemies, much like Vulcan Blitz or Fire Blast.
Both of which could greatly benefit a change in that regard.

... but LoS isn't a true issue, in fact-- it's kinda like that "range" nerf you mentioned.
You have to line yourself up and POSITION yourself in a spot to the maximum amount of targets. This isn't anything new.
If you just reduce the range? You just neuter it more for those who could already use it well.

A bad system can be detrimental, but removing something that can be reclaimed is far worse.

 

Do I have to point to the sign? PvE games can use balance just as much as PvP games.
Players cannot be trusted to handle themselves when it comes to balancing.

... also, you say Excal can't match Saryn or Mesa? I could not only outplay them using Excal-- but do it in style.
Limbo is a different case, he can easily hit damage cap numbers... but you to know how he does so.
If you were to say something Banshee? Maybe, but I also know Banshee is lagging behind.

Say what ya will about DE, they are not immune to doing incredibly stupid things.
Every game- no matter what it is- can use balancing. Even purely singleplayer games that have further updates planned can use balancing.
A balanced game plays a lot more fun than an unbalanced one, because usually if it's intentionally unbalanced? It's accounted for and integrated in some way.

It's like if you played Final Fantasy and "God Slaying Slash" in the first dungeon.
Obviously every part of the game would become a joke if you can just instantly obliterate everything.
Warframe isn't Final Fantasy, sure-- but it's more than just killing hordes of fodder enemies.
"Mindless slaughter" can still have some form of balance, look at Dynasty Warriors (or similar games) and you'll see what I mean.
^{Here's some Fire Emblem: Three Hopes footage as an example: https://youtu.be/K1TpOsf4Iv0?si=3TbosCALg-gIL6dH&t=342}

• Wukong and Titania may be fast, but a player good at parkour can often be just as fast.
• With as much Overguard as that? Yes, actually. I'd argue that since it can't be easily dispelled, unlike Mesmer Skin.
  • That and it's a very easy ability to cast and affects the entire squad. Even pets and NPCs like Arbitration Defense Targets.
• Tragedy. If that's not enough for you, a single Second Encumber primer will be.
• Level cap is a metric DE has said before that don't like using. Neither do I either since anything that completely shuts enemy AI like Octavia will survive ANY content.
  • Even still, I don't know how you'd "nerf" Octavia without making her 100% irrelevant.
  • She's an odd case that I'd argue is the ONLY Warframe that needs a full "rework", replacing every ability of hers.
• ... Dante's Support is just as big- if not bigger- than both of them. Status Immunity+Durability with Overguard in just one buff and even Energy Orbs/Fire Rate with Noctua. 
  • Wisp provides a Fire Rate buff and Health Regen, but that's about it for "support". Hardly useful considering we have Shields.
  • Citrine can give Boosted Status Chance, Damage Resistance and Health Regen... but the latter two rarely help with Overguard in play.
    • Status Chance can even be boosted by the Paragrimms, even boosting Status Damage in the process. Outdoing Citrine as a result.
• To be fair, Nova isn't exactly the peak of "Crowd Control".

Even if he doesn't come close in some departments, he's certainly excelling in MULTIPLE departments.

Warframe was also a wildly different game back than. Polar opposite if I may be so inclined.

You could afford such leaps and bounds of power to integrate a mechanic like that back than.
... but it was also because it provided the basis for a form of parkour that is wildly loved to this day. _{(Well, maybe less with certain players roaming around. Eugh.)}
It's not because it was an exploit that it was implemented, it was because such a mechanic could be vastly expanded upon. Making gameplay fresh.

Granted, I'll agree that DE isn't the same company as back than.
I look at things like Channeling and question why it was removed without properly making it work.
Originally, that function was supposed to be the early-forms of a "Special Attack Gauge" you see in most games. DE called it a "rage mode", but you get the idea.
... and than they just... axed it.

I believe they axed it because everybody mocked it. They said "It was useless" and "Nobody would miss it" because of it's extreme energy costs.
Yet nobody realized it was ACTUALLY because we had no mods to elaborate on that system with, very few Melees actually used the system at all.
Kinda wanna smack a younger me upside the head for doubting it if I ever did, I'll admit.

I didn't fully understand what it was at the time and never knew what it could become. 
Thankfully, I have knowledge of how the game works now and I do think it would've been far greater if they kept it.

 

Wanna hear a fun fact? We have those other options because y'all wont let those go either.
Seriously, at this point it's less "We have Revenant, so it's fine!" and more "Oh, it's ANOTHER one to the pile."

When they try to nerf Wukong or Revenant? People throw a hissy fit like they are now.
The core difference between people who nerfs vs. the endless gluttony of "buff only" players is that the former are looking long-term.

 

I'd argue it's not much different from any other "Echoes" update. A lot of people said the same thing for a lot of updates prior.
They often don't mean it though, because a lot of players haven't exactly bothered or have been around for those updates.

While I really enjoy Deep Archimedia? _{(mainly because it's the first mode in a loooooong time that has actually made me gauge danger in a mision)}
It's only one part of this update, the rest is kinda.... eh?

We got Dante, who was overtuned to hell on his release. Otherwise mildly interesting kit if you ignore the stats outright.
We got Sanctum Disruption and Omnia Fissures... but nothing we haven't seen before.
We got some new augments, which are nice-- but nothing to focus on with an update.
... and I genuinely can't remember much else without looking, which probably goes to show it's relevancy.

I don't know what people see in Dante that requires them to be so vehemently defensive about it.
It's honestly kinda concerning, because it feels like another Styanax situation.
DE """"""nerfs"""""" on tiny aspect of a Warframe and suddenly the entire community grabs pitchforks.
God forbid we have something get balanced around here, folks.

 

No, it was because people don't like some schmuck entering the squad and wedging a crowbar into an invincibility cheat code, forcing it on permanently.
Just because other players suck doesn't the rest have to be dragged down. Usually is the ideal anyway.

Dante is perfectly playable still. Hell, I'd argue you could subsume his 2 off and still survive Steel Path plenty fine. Shields are a thing, you know.
There are people who have jump-kicked their way through the entire Star Chart.
There are people who have cleared Warframe without jumping once.
There are people who have taken Dragon Keys into Steel Path and clear without abilities.
There are people who actively sit down and run Steel Path Level Cap for literal days on end. _{(Often using things like Mag. You can Mag at the start of the damn game, buddy.)} 

You could use Dante on Steel Path and be just fine. No skill needed.
We DO NOT need players shoveling Overguard onto us.

Hey, DE? One bit of feedback, don't refund this fella.
Instead, just lock 'em to Dante. Show 'em that he's still perfectly viable.
^{Obviously, I'm being facetious here... but hot damn do these people feel like they deserve no refunds.}

As for LoS? It's a way to limit the ability without needing to nerf it's stats outright.
Position yourself once in a blue moon. If you die, you die. It's Warframe, you'll live.
^{Also, there's a certain market strategy called "looking into it". I'd say "look into it", but that'd be paradoxical! So I'll just pretend you get it, since there's no helping ya.}

 

... I mean, they didn't really "listen". They gave their usual schtick of "Oh, don't worry guys. We understand."
They won't do it again, if they do? It'll be under a different name or a slightly different ruse.
This isn't the first time, nor is it the last.

Granted, the same thing was being done with Wukong's clone needing ammo. _{(Which is barely a nerf imo)}
THAT one had a lot of people (like me) calling out people demanding reverts.
All while saying: "What the hell are you asking for? Your insatiable lust for power got you this, yet you have the audacity to ask for more?!"

 

While I do understand your questioning with this, it's more along the lines of "Health being damaged just isn't a thing you can do anymore. Shields are more likely to be putting the player in a danger state." so it fits the mod more now.

... but yeah, it's hard to make use of that when you have to burn through 50k Overguard that's refusing to go down.
I feel this is one of those situations where DE really can't do much about it because of how demand constant buffs.

Honestly, could you imagine an enemy had access to the same tools we do?
I can't, not even with Spectralysts copying our sets and abilities because DE manually restricted what they can use.
^{https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Spectralyst in case you never seen one.}

Point is, we're so overpowered as is. The reason enemies need to be "nuked" at all is because none of them stand even a mote of a chance.
We've gone unchecked, to the point where the biggest enemy is ourselves. A bit of irony there, huh?

You presume much, young Jedi. I do not join squads, I solo everything. So, hate on somebody else.