[Dante Unbound] Our plans for next week (35.5.6)

[Ricky_CB]

[Nero.DMC]

59 minutes ago, LordOfKenpo said:

@[DE]Momaw Thank you for investigating that, but there are 24 other pages of comments that I think most people would also like addressed, and 35 on another thread

its pretty mindblowing how they keep ignoring the same things over and over without adressing them once, by this point i think they would have gotten so much less  hate if they did, but no ignoring players seems the way they are going about this, hope players stop spending money, its the only way we are going to be heard i guess.

[Circle_of_Psi]

4 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

its pretty mindblowing how they keep ignoring the same things over and over without adressing them once, by this point i think they would have gotten so much less  hate if they did, but no ignoring players seems the way they are going about this, hope players stop spending money, its the only way we are going to be heard i guess.

It is a Monday today, so wonder why there isn't any response yet, since it's "next week"

[yeahnil]

vor einer Stunde schrieb [DE]Momaw:

We just tested this as both host and client and didn't see an obvious difference in how long it takes to kill an enemy between being capped at 30fps versus the host running unlimited on a high spec PC (over 400fps).

If you're seeing an issue with Peacemaker time-to-kill being affected by frame rate that can be verified with a video recording and a stopwatch, we need more details how to set up the test 😅

Why is this the only thing you actually respond to?

[Tecstasy]

10 minutes ago, yeahnil said:

Why is this the only thing you actually respond to?

Because It isn't the issue at hand and DE wants to show they don't care and are ignoring us.

[Arbitrary]

1 hour ago, [DE]Momaw said:

We just tested this as both host and client and didn't see an obvious difference in how long it takes to kill an enemy between being capped at 30fps versus the host running unlimited on a high spec PC (over 400fps).

If you're seeing an issue with Peacemaker time-to-kill being affected by frame rate that can be verified with a video recording and a stopwatch, we need more details how to set up the test 😅

On the topic of Mesa, there's a longstanding bug where Arcane Awakening, Arcane Precision, and Arcane Velocity have their bonus applied multiple times to Regulators. This only happens on base Mesa, not Mesa Prime.

It's fairly easy to notice with Arcane Awakening or Arcane Precision since you can see that the damage numbers are different.
With Arcane Awakening active and no mods on Mesa or Regulators, the Regulators do 376 damage on the first burst to Overguard.
Repeating the same process with Mesa Prime and Regulators Prime yields only 296 damage on the first burst to Overguard.

[CjoewD]

33 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

its pretty mindblowing how they keep ignoring the same things over and over without adressing them once, by this point i think they would have gotten so much less  hate if they did, but no ignoring players seems the way they are going about this, hope players stop spending money, its the only way we are going to be heard i guess.

Yeah, I've been refreshing the forums all day to see someone address Dante LoS. It's still "bugged". People still upset. To see that comment addressed while everything else is ignored made me see red for a second. 

Edited April 8 by CjoewD

[Zomiku]

2 hours ago, [DE]Momaw said:

We just tested this as both host and client and didn't see an obvious difference in how long it takes to kill an enemy between being capped at 30fps versus the host running unlimited on a high spec PC (over 400fps).

If you're seeing an issue with Peacemaker time-to-kill being affected by frame rate that can be verified with a video recording and a stopwatch, we need more details how to set up the test 😅

Are you f serious? THIS IS WHAT YOU'RE ADDRESSING?

[Kosynth]

10 minutes ago, Zomiku said:

Are you f serious? THIS IS WHAT YOU'RE ADDRESSING?

Companies tend to work on multiple things at once.
What do you want? HR to start firing people if they don't put 100% focus on Dante?

[CelticShaman]

3 minutes ago, Kosynth said:

Companies tend to work on multiple things at once.
What do you want? HR to start firing people if they don't put 100% focus on Dante?

Of course not. But in a thread with 25 pages about Dante that no one seems to be addressing, picking out one side comment made about Mesa and addressing it seems pretty tone deaf...

[yeahnil]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb CelticShaman:

Of course not. But in a thread with 25 pages about Dante that no one seems to be addressing, picking out one side comment made about Mesa and addressing it seems pretty tone deaf...

Keep in mind that this isn't the only one. There were many others that were either locked, merged or straight up deleted.

[LordOfKenpo]

20 minutes ago, Kosynth said:

Companies tend to work on multiple things at once.
What do you want? HR to start firing people if they don't put 100% focus on Dante?

This is also a thread specifically about changes to Dante not Mesa and yet they only respond to the off topic comment about Mesa

[Museigen]

To compress all my feedback in here, after a lot of play with Dante on Steel Path (I only play steel path, basically, no matter the frame):

- The Overguard question: the reduction in overguard means just more spam of abilities. It also means that it constrict possible builds to more Cast speed and more Energy. If it's efficiency, or energy gain, there're some options. The best one is Equilibrium builds, imo. But even so, I didn't just dump efficiency completely, I put one streamline there for management. For Dante, Strength is the golden stat, so it's only natural that people will use Blind Rage. I'd suggest buff the overguard regeneration values of the buff, instead of buffing the value of the overguard gain on cast. EDIT: I mean, If should you buff it. I don't think it's bad. And I quite like the regen effect, it incetivises an good and proactive playstyle.

- The Line of Sight question: Since Tragedy is a detonator ability, it has to have some characteristics to work well with his kit, which is reach and easier application (I'm saying reach as a general concept, not only range). Line of sight here make it so that the combo has multiple line of sight checks, which is not very intuitive for how the ability works, since Dark Verse already has line of sight check. To put it into perspective, it's similar to put line of sight on Saryn's Miasma, it'd be too clunky. It creates a problem where a delayed detonation that you plant a bomb needs a check on the cast and you also needs to watch the bomb detonate so the explosion works.
But considering that Tragedy should have Line of Sight no matter what, so it's less oppressive aoe, it must have more reach and leniency than its enabler, Dark Verse, or at least the same rules. For now, dark verse is a bit more permissive, which create multiple instances of "I hit something, but I can't finish it". And worse yet, Tragedy and Dark Verse line of sight still has bugs which make everything more frustrating.
About the positioning and movement problem, it just made it worse and less dynamic, not more. Since you have to detonate tragedy while the enemy is still on your line of sight, you have less leeway to reposition yourself, not more, beyond simply jumping to get a birds view (lol). But it's playable still.

- The Balance question: Is Dante overpowered? This is the question that divides the playerbase the most. Because it has two answers. If you look at Dante from the perspective of the majority of outdated frames, that are not in form to deal with the up to date content, he's "overpowered". But if you look at Dante from the perspective of the up to date content, he's pretty damn well balanced right now, with a very middling kpm. He's just a frame made for the content that is central to Warframe nowadays. "But he kills with skills! He one shots big enemies!" Yes, he does. Because he's a mage that uses abilities to kill, that is what he's supposed to do. Damage abilities should not be balanced based on Volt's Shock, or Ember's Fireball. And saying he "one shots" I don't think is quite right, since you need preparation and enablers. Any one can do what Dante can do with a good weapon, and do it easier.
I think that the discussion should be focused on playability and not balance, for now. Because that is the problem.

Those are my accessment around the Dante's questions. I loved the frame, my instant main. A wizard which deals damage with abilities is what I always want to play, and what I wanted to play in warframe since beta. Thank you for the good and hard work, Digital Extremes, but be more clear with your communication next time. The trust has been breached. Should you heed to only one of my advices, let it be this one: You should apologise for that.

Edited April 9 by Museigen

[Nero.DMC]

47 minutes ago, Kosynth said:

Companies tend to work on multiple things at once.
What do you want? HR to start firing people if they don't put 100% focus on Dante?

On a Dante thread, when the community has been extremely vocal of the problems that are still in the game after they did what everyone told them not to do?...

like you take being a corporate shill to a whole new level

[Karyst]

3 hours ago, crazywolfpusher said:

Never tested it myself since I only play at 60fps but i'll refer to these two videos:

I know the first one is very old and it was filmed after an update that was meant fix the issue.

 

and the a most recent one, after the Gargoyle event when people were capping their FPS to bypass dmg attenuation. 2:54 is the Mesa bit

I guess to test it you gonna need a high fire rate Mesa build.

Amalgam Furax Body Count +45% FR, Arcane Velocity +120% FR, Reinforced Bond +60% FR, Anemic Agility +90% FR, Lethal Torrent +60% FR. 

We know that damage attenuation is countered by high pellet count, we also now that damage attenuation has been implemented to prevent one shots.

[LordOfKenpo]

Apparently someone has reported that using Dante's Tragedy now actually drops the games FPS significantly, another reason to revert the change. They were saying they regularly get 100+ FPS but when using Tragedy a lot it drops to about 30FPS. If that's true its another reason to remove LoS

[DeadlyDullahan]

20 minutes ago, LordOfKenpo said:

Apparently someone has reported that using Dante's Tragedy now actually drops the games FPS significantly, another reason to revert the change. They were saying they regularly get 100+ FPS but when using Tragedy a lot it drops to about 30FPS. If that's true its another reason to remove LoS

I'm not surprised since LOS checks are just an additional thing your machine has to process. It's probably why the original LOS system was so oversimplified to minimize the impact it would have on players with older/less powerful machines; but hey it seems DE doesn't care much if it affects the poor players or the average player experience seeing as they're doubling down on their solution of making a more complicated LOS system with more checks and redundancy as opposed to *checks notes* "improving the overall player experience" -as they put it. Guess we'll have to wait and see what over-engineered solution they come up with to address that new self-made issue. My guess is reducing how many LOS checks there are but adding just enough LOS checks to be higher than what it was originally so they can keep their promise of "adding more LOS checks."

Lets wait and see

[Renkuya]

2 hours ago, CelticShaman said:

Of course not. But in a thread with 25 pages about Dante that no one seems to be addressing, picking out one side comment made about Mesa and addressing it seems pretty tone deaf...

This is the thing I found pretty disgusting. Blatantly ignoring the "unnerf dante" crowd seems like an oddly hostile approach from DE. I've held of on playing since the nerf, I probably just won't play until they fix him. I'm really not liking this way of handling things.

[Nero.DMC]

2 minutes ago, DeadlyDullahan said:

I'm not surprised since LOS checks are just an additional thing your machine has to process. It's probably why the original LOS system was so oversimplified to minimize the impact it would have on players with older/less powerful machines; but hey it seems DE doesn't care much if it affects the poor players or the average player experience seeing as they're doubling down on their solution of making a more complicated LOS system with more checks and redundancy as opposed to *checks notes* "improving the overall player experience" -as they put it. Guess we'll have to wait and see what over-engineered solution they come up with to address that new self-made issue. My guess is reducing how many LOS checks there are but adding just enough LOS checks to be higher than what it was originally so they can keep their promise of "adding more LOS checks."

Lets wait and see

its incredible they managed to sidestep making any comment today, DE is really testing us...

[DeadlyDullahan]

Just now, Nero.DMC said:

its incredible they managed to sidestep making any comment today, DE is really testing us...

I'm sure they're cooking up a response and trying to find a way to word it that minimizes the backlash they're going to get(it won't) when they confirm that they're not going to listen to the community on this issue- which frankly isn't the first time and doubt it'll be the last time. I'm just personally fed up with it at this stage after years of promising they'd stop this kind of behavior. Anything less than an apology with sincere action isn't going to cut it anymore, the empty promises are old and overused.

[Renkuya]

1 minute ago, DeadlyDullahan said:

I'm sure they're cooking up a response and trying to find a way to word it that minimizes the backlash they're going to get(it won't) when they confirm that they're not going to listen to the community on this issue- which frankly isn't the first time and doubt it'll be the last time. I'm just personally fed up with it at this stage after years of promising they'd stop this kind of behavior. Anything less than an apology with sincere action isn't going to cut it anymore, the empty promises are old and overused.

I imagine they have someone internally that just told them, "it's not that big of a problem, ignore it and it'll die down".  Which, probably they're not wrong. This will fade as Jade releases and tennocon steals attention away. In the end, this will amount to "remember the community screaming for X years to fix Y problem before it got resolved". If they go the "we know better, we're not listening to feedback" route it'll backfire. Maybe not now, but these things pile up until people have had enough.

[Gandalf_White]

5 hours ago, [DE]Momaw said:

We just tested this as both host and client and didn't see an obvious difference in how long it takes to kill an enemy between being capped at 30fps versus the host running unlimited on a high spec PC (over 400fps).

If you're seeing an issue with Peacemaker time-to-kill being affected by frame rate that can be verified with a video recording and a stopwatch, we need more details how to set up the test 😅

Wow. What a way to completely ignore your playerbase. They should be handing out some kind of awards for that.

The thread is about Dante and THIS is what you respond to, out of 25 pages of Dante.

 

1 hour ago, LordOfKenpo said:

Apparently someone has reported that using Dante's Tragedy now actually drops the games FPS significantly, another reason to revert the change. They were saying they regularly get 100+ FPS but when using Tragedy a lot it drops to about 30FPS. If that's true its another reason to remove LoS

Doesn't suprise me in the slightest. The entirety of LoS nerf along with hotfixes has been rushed out ASAP to shove it down our throats and hope we forget about it over the weekend. 

Now if there was no Dante nerfs all this would never have happened and everyone would have been happy...

Edited April 8 by Gandalf_White

[DeadlyDullahan]

12 minutes ago, Renkuya said:

I imagine they have someone internally that just told them, "it's not that big of a problem, ignore it and it'll die down".  Which, probably they're not wrong. This will fade as Jade releases and tennocon steals attention away. In the end, this will amount to "remember the community screaming for X years to fix Y problem before it got resolved". If they go the "we know better, we're not listening to feedback" route it'll backfire. Maybe not now, but these things pile up until people have had enough.

Yea the unfortunate reality is that this will likely amount to another point in time where the community was unhappy with their actions (again) because they elected to ignore concerns and grievances (again) where a fraction of players drop the game (again) and DE will move on with the notion that the players they've lost are just negligible numbers on paper and not actual people (a g a i n)

The sad part is they won't see it as a misstep, they'll just see it as a small profit loss. or maybe I'm wrong and enough people actually end up refunding their tennocon tickets to prove a point. who knows.

-Edit to add. Someone made a good point earlier in either this thread or another thread. A lot of the Playerbase takes this kind of abuse because there aren't many competitive alternatives to Warframe currently. The games made it 11 years partly due to this fact, would hate to see Warframe's popularity get nerfed as ruthlessly and without concern as they seem to nerf their own game.

Edited April 8 by DeadlyDullahan

[Nero.DMC]

6 minutes ago, DeadlyDullahan said:

Yea the unfortunate reality is that this will likely amount to another point in time where the community was unhappy with their actions (again) because they elected to ignore concerns and grievances (again) where a fraction of players drop the game (again) and DE will move on with the notion that the players they've lost are just negligible numbers on paper and not actual people (a g a i n)

The sad part is they won't see it as a misstep, they'll just see it as a small profit loss. or maybe I'm wrong and enough people actually end up refunding their tennocon tickets to prove a point. who knows.

i really really hope that is the case, the "we are hearing you but we will ignore every bit of feedback and do whatever" gets old rather fast, so i really hope this hurts them in the only place they really care about money.

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

5 hours ago, [DE]Momaw said:

We just tested this as both host and client and didn't see an obvious difference in how long it takes to kill an enemy between being capped at 30fps versus the host running unlimited on a high spec PC (over 400fps).

If you're seeing an issue with Peacemaker time-to-kill being affected by frame rate that can be verified with a video recording and a stopwatch, we need more details how to set up the test 😅

So you have 25 pages on a Dante forum (on this form alone not to mention the other threads with around 70 pages all together) and you pick the ONE comment that isn't about Dante to adress this seriously shows how much you dont care about the comunity at that point 

Because going out of your way to comment on the one comment that isn't about Dante and how much everyone wants a revert on him is so blatantly disrespectful that it shows your true colors at this point and how much you dont care for your comunity that iv lost any little respect i had for DE as a company