[Dante Unbound] Our plans for next week (35.5.6)

[Debatra]

This Rage/Hunter change has zero impact on any frame that has non-zero shields and get Overguard from Dante.

[NLGUnknown]

screw us for trying to give feedback when you OPENLY asked for it. SO YOU CAN JUST IGNORE IT AND COME UP WITH SOLUTIONS TO A PROBLEM THAT WASNT EVEN THERE

[HyperKessi26004]

These changes are great (especially Chroma, gonna be checking him out again), but PLEASE dump LOS on Dante. Having it work a normal AOE cast just makes so much more sense. LOS has been historically bad, no reason to give the problem an opening to mess things up.

Edited April 5 by HyperKessi26004

[MasterControl]

I am happy to see that Pageflight is getting the status damage back, I didn't expect that. It fundamentally elevates Dante's kit in a critical way. I'm disappointed that Tragedy isn't going to be changed further, and I hope that the LOS changes are sufficient in making him feel good to play again. I will reiterate that Tragedy requires status to be effective, and most methods of status application that we have are *already* line of sight, and it feels weird to add another layer of line of sight checks, especially on an ability that already requires 3 casts to access. I remain indifferent to the overguard changes, although I hope that this leads to review of Chroma and any other frames that rely on damage to make their kits work. I think they are the fundamental issue here, not Dante or overguard as a whole.

I also hope that we can take another look at Nezha and Divine Retribution. A 50% multiplicative penalty is quite harsh, and while I understand the fears of quadratic scaling especially with Dark Verse subsumed, I believe the majority of the time that you won't be hitting enough enemies simultaneously for it to be a large problem outside of focused builds that sacrifice their ability to deal with eximus for add clear. 

[Varzy]

Really excited to see the team finally do a serious tackle of the buggy LOS in the game. I really don't mind that Tragedy has been given LOS since Dark Verse already had it and the baseline damage isn't significant in Steel Path.

Love to see you bringing back the status damage effect of Pageflight, it's important that frames all have something unique like this that savvy players can utilize.

Vex Armor buff sounds amazing, since I've always found it frustrating needing to find sources of damage to build it up. Any chance you could also buff the base duration while using the new augment?

The change to Rage/Hunter Adrenaline sound promising, but I really hope that it keeps the classic 'gain energy on health damage' in addition to this buff. This is really critical to making this mod work, because it ensures your energy is full exactly when you need it - when you take a ton of damage!

[Giant_Dad_Prime]

Great changes, would've just preferred you let Vex Armor, Rage, and Hunter Adrenaline proc on Overguard damaged though. It'd create a kinda cool synergy with Chroma and Overguard frames and wouldn't by any stretch of the imagination make him OP. But hey what you guys are suggesting is a perfectly valid solution.

Then of course just for good measure, revert the Dante LoS checks on Tragedy please. It's silly to knee jerk reaction nerf a frame when not enough time has gone by for any meaningful data to be collected. As I've said on all my forum posts so far...it takes time to farm a frame, 12 hours to build them, then 3 whole days for them to be completed and claimed. It's only been 1 week...it takes half of one to even get him in the first place. There objectively wasn't enough data to go on to justify such a heavy handed nerf.

Edited April 5 by Giant_Dad_Prime

[Darkness443]

hace 38 minutos, ChiefWolfZ dijo:

I know the Loki Community is small and quiet, but can damage decoy please not be affected by Friendly Fire. This augment seemed really neat on paper, yet in practice it's making me want to return the augment for my standing back. 

This. Or just make it so the normal decoy can use the augment

[Fosgatt]

"People have been laughing..." The minimum should be a hotfix reverting Dante until you guys figure out how to address him.. this nerf was rushed and horrible..

Jesus.. read the room.

[kerozen666]

18 minutes ago, castem said:

The Rage/Overguard change is welcome, although I wonder if Valkyr is overlooked with this change since she's still affected.  I'm also curious if Parasitic Armor Rhino can make use of it as well.

And as others have mentioned, the Nezha augment nerf is pretty heavy-handed and it'd be nice to see it lessened so it's more usable

i suggest letting them know more directly by making a full feedback post. this is obviously something that might cause issues once released, so if they know in advance they can avoid unecessary fuss over change and nerfs 

[sh0shin]

The tone-deaf "we are listening" without at least acknowledging the outcry to revert the changes is really off-putting. Especially when you just release another bugged LoS which apparently affects Dark Verse now? Can someone confirm?

I'm not even trying to antagonize. I love this game so much and have immense respect for all the combined efforts that have gotten it here. It's just frustrating to see the two-faced communication.

Take your time with your fixes and please consider the suggested changes of "wow way too much Overguard" (or don't, I like being OP)

[mweepigeon]

> Rage/Hunter Adrenaline will now grant Energy when you don't have Shields, so Inaros and Nidus (or any frame when their Shields are temporarily down), can regenerate Energy even through Overguard.

Is this implying instead of taking damage? If so, that makes Oberon entirely unplayable, his energy economy is just so bad for a dozen reasons. Rage/Adrenaline was the one reliable way for keeping Renewal online, and removing that energy-on-damage functionality not only doesn't fix the inherent issues with Overguard being non-optional and preventing on-damage synergies, it kneecaps any frame that isn't Inaros or Nidus that wants to use Rage/Adrenaline.

[AR_Has]

ignore your community more DE , I will never buy your packs again , why LOS on his 4th if HIS 3RD in LOS , you realise it deals NO damage without his 3rd? ITS EVEN more broken than yesterday , i am tired of this dev team and lost all trust .. you dont play your own game

[Amen-san]

23 minutes ago, NLGUnknown said:

screw us for trying to give feedback when you OPENLY asked for it. SO YOU CAN JUST IGNORE IT AND COME UP WITH SOLUTIONS TO A PROBLEM THAT WASNT EVEN THERE

Listening to feedback, and doing every change the community asked for, are two very different things. 

[Sarulas]

Please add 'correcting your mistakes' to your plans for next week, thanks.

And by mistakes I mean the twice botched LoS changes on Dante. You've already chosen to double down once, and now we have clips like this:

Warframe character model blocks LoS:
https://clips.twitch.tv/HomelyAggressiveWormPJSalt-XA21cwDUsYU4yVcd

FoV changes break LoS:
https://clips.twitch.tv/FineHilariousPorcupineTwitchRPG-n6J-Qnm9mlmk2rVt

This such a horrible, yet predictable, look for you guys. I expected better after the change in leadership. This change was ill-conceived in the first place, and these broken attempts at fixes to the already unnessesary problem are just embarrassing. At this point, please just cut your losses and try a different approach.

I've said it in previous comments, but every enemy in ability range that was tagged by 3 should be hit by 4. There's many ways to ensure this core functionality is kept, and exactly 0 of them are with LoS checks.

I wish the team the best of luck in regaining the trust that's been lost with this entirely avoidable debacle.

[GabeB11]

Any plans on adjusting the Nezha augment nerf as the augment being a -50% to the base range actually ends up being a 75% reduction in his total range, which ends up with the augment feeling awkward and somewhat weak?

[Frost_King]

A better change would be for Rage/Hunter Adrenaline to give energy on hit, and a larger chunk of energy on direct health hit. 

Still no word about reverting Archon Intensify on Dante, a mod that already had severely limited use for its capacity cost?  Honestly it should trigger off healing orbs too, least it could be useful in every frame then.

Again the simplest answer is just to revert the line of sight thing on Dante's 4 as his 3 already had line  of sight, plus 4 hitting through walls allowed team mates to stack enemies for Dante to nuke, beyond that the damage was negligible.

Also still no reversion on Nezha's augment or the Arca Trition, giving life to some old frames and weapons and just... killing them too?

You know, DE says they are listening to feedback, but no one feels like they are being listened to.  Makes me think of what they would do if they saw people coptering today.  It was a point of pride for DE to see players engineer a solution and make steps to correct the underlying problem.  What would DE have done today, nerf slide attacks?

Also people are angry because Dante was fun, Dante filled a niche, and people generally agree the numbers needed adjusting, sure, but you gutted him.  But because Dante was fun... there was alot of early adopters.  With people buying the Dante bundle for cash, or in game for platinum, most countries tend to frown on bait and switch tactics like that.    Plus all three tenets of 'If a warframe should get looked at' were not touched, Dante wasn't automated, sure he was a little dominate but it was a new thing, its been a week people were still testing and building, you couldn't have had proper data to let the ecosystem settle.  All of this just feels really bad, and people feel both ripped off and not listened to.

[Kriseanity]

Is it just me or did the changes made it more buggy and it's not just Tragedy this time but dark verse is acting really weird too? 

[(XBOX)MidlandGaming]

14 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

I wonder how quickly the developers will comply with the demands of the players and return everything to the imbalanced state that was before the patches? or will they show firmness, as was the case with the nerf of Wukong, and not make concessions?

Imbalanced? The main point of the nerf was that Dante was seen as overly dominant in matchmaking, but that was only for one reason at the end of the day he’s just a fun frame that isn’t hard to get. Grinding for me took maybe three hours and I personally had a blast just playing as him. He had an insane level of versatility we haven’t seen in a while when it comes to a new frame. If I was paired up with Saryn or Ember I didn’t play for high damage I played as a support frame primarily keeping up their overguard as needed, but if that wasn’t the case I could pick up some of the slack for the team even without a teammate whose whole frame is built around nuking the entire area. He’s a competent frame that could be used in a variety of situations regardless of who your team picks. I would argue it introduced more diversity into what frames actually got brought into steel path because my team felt more comfortable bringing Limbo, Valkyr, Hydroid, and even Nyx. Frames that would typically struggle with survivability got to see more action that just being MR fodder.  Punishing a frame for being well liked and viable isn’t a sound decision when you can tweak his stats to fall more inline with what they’re wanting without changing core features of his abilities. If the complaint was only level on one aspect of his kit it become more understandable, but they chose to change all of his essential abilities. Overguard was essentially cut in half meaning if you actually what to get anywhere near Rhino’s Iron Skin you have you use a LOT more energy (which his kit already lacks). Dante’s Dark verse was already line of sight and unless built correctly, or if Tragedy wasn’t used close enough to it, needed a primer to actually get full effect. Pageflight was and still is a great source of CC, but without a strong damage backing makes it more of an energy drain on his build more so. If the concern was truly too many Dante’s then why has Saryn, Wisp, and Octavia dominated the Meta for so long. Why would you be afraid of mixing things up for once and adding a frame that is a viable alternative to those picks while allowing other frames to actually have a chance to shine. I can’t tell you the last time I enjoyed playing with a Nyx in Steel Path, but Dante introduced a synergy with what what be considered weaker frames by just existing and being their survivability. Instead we’ll just go back to the same big three in every game and let them dominate late game play styles and missions.

[Mrkiiz]

Remove LOS Dante plz 

Remove LOS Dante plz 

[Cpt.Casual]

Thank you, @[DE]Momaw! These changes are actually fixing the issues the people had before you nerfed Dante. Fixing overguard interactions was what was requested and needed. I can't say how much it means to see you all recognizing that and fixing it.

I'll add to the rest of the chorus that I'd like to see Dante's 4 returned to its launch state. LoS is still buggy and frustrating. If the team feels it must be nerfed from launch state, I think reducing range or adding damage fall off at the outer ranges would be a much better change. 

Finally, please consider a less crippling balance to Nezha's Augment: Divine Retribution. Even if the penalty was additive, instead of multiplicative, it would probably be workable. But having range x0.5 means I'm putting half of my mod space/capacity into range and still ending up with terrible range for 4. The augment just isn't worth using in its current state, and it otherwise was an aug that made Nezha much more capable and fun to play! 

Again, thanks for hearing the community's feedback and trying to make more sensible changes. Hope you and the team have a nice weekend!

[LoreistLapis]

dante will still feel horrible until you guys revert the LoS that no one asked for.

 

[Sbreddragon]

All good changes and fixes, pretty much seem to have listened to most of the community feedback, so big props there.

I still feel the LOS is a bad change, as it always has been on everything it was implemented to. Why not just nerf the range somewhat and leave the ability as it was?

[RivaAurelius]

1 hour ago, [DE]Momaw said:

It's been an exciting week for Warframe. Following the very positive launch of Dante Unbound, we threw open the doors to the Deep Archimedea and Elite Deep Archimedea. People have been laughing all the way to the bank with their new-found riches of Archon Shards.

But there's also been some missteps which we must take responsibility and apologize for, with regard to Dante himself and the rapid changes that caught people unawares. We've already made a big correction by fixing the new Line of Sight calculations which were, to put it bluntly, not as good as they should have been on release.

We never stop reviewing feedback, and in the spirit of making constant improvements to our game, here's a preview of our next steps in response to what players have said:

• Adding back and formalizing the Status Damage Vulnerability to Dante's "Pageflight". In other words not just making enemies take more Status procs, but also increasing the damage of their Status. We removed this in Hotfix 35.5.3 because it was unexpected, and we regarded it as a bug. But many of you have expressed a desire to have this back, so we are working to restore it.
• Improving the co-op play between Warframes that give their teammates Overguard and Warframes that rely on taking damage:
  • Vex Armor can charge its damage buff by getting ranged kills and its armor buff by getting melee or ability kills. This is in addition to the existing functionality. This allows Vex Armor to work while having Overguard and also in general provides a nice interaction where you can get the buff faster from playing well and not just from tanking hits.
  • Rage/Hunter Adrenaline will now grant Energy when you don't have Shields, so Inaros and Nidus (or any frame when their Shields are temporarily down), can regenerate Energy even through Overguard.

You can expect to see a Hotfix next week that adds these items. Other forms of self damage like Combat Discipline will also be reviewed in the future. We have definitely heard you on this point, we're just not sure that it will be done as quickly as the other interactions already mentioned.

 

 

MANY of us have also expressed a desire for you to revert the Line of Sight changes. When will we be heard on this?

[Asattera]

I when I first tried out Dante was impressed, it was a fresh breath of air after the established decades old Saryn meta.
You did a very good job making his game interesting, moderately active and colorful.
I am already a rank 4 legendary player and have come a long way in the game, and would like to share my perspective on Dante's situation.
His overguard was really given too fast and too much and I more than agree with his current balancing.
It's a strong ability, but revenant mesmer skin augment does the same thing, only protects against any amount of damage at all and at any levels where that overguard would already be gone in seconds.
As for tragedy, I would still bring it back to the original form, but limit the range or/and add an action only at a certain angle from Dante in front and a small area in the back with no checks 5-10 meters away.
As for the noctua copy from the ability, 30% was too little and 50% looks much more solid and I'm happy with this change, I wish that noctua copy would shoot at the nearest enemy or attacker at least once every couple of seconds and that would be fine.
Paragrimms look the least useful and sometimes blinded my allies with effects when they started circling around them for some reason.

[DerPumpkinKing]

Just, remove, the LoS req! IT'S SO SIMPLE