Dear DE, You Talk About Fixing Disruptive Gameplay, But What About Warframe Abilities And Augments That Apply Elemental Buffs To A Player And Their Squad

[JargenBakt]

Anyone who has played long enough there are some abilities and numerous augments that apply elemental buffs to a player and their squad within the defined range. Well, the problem with all of these buffs is that they get tacked on as if you're putting another mod on to your weapon. It'll merge with primary elements that still exist (this is particularly bad on tenet, kuva, and other weapons that contain a primary elemental) and it'll throw your entire status chance proc chance between your current damage type configuration completely out-of-whack sometimes even overpowering the other damage types so much to the point that they almost never proc because the introduction of the elemental buffs slaps on has such incredibly high damage compared to what already exists on the weapon.

 

I use to use many of these augments back when I was first started playing, but when I realized what they did I just stopped using them entirely. It's not fun when you're trying to improve your squad only to come around and end up being a griefer instead due to how they work. I've seen other players use these very same augments probably not even realizing that they're causing problems for their squad.

 

In my opinion, I'd rather have these abilities and augments work by applying a completely separate damage instance so it doesn't elemental merge and doesn't affect status chance proc'ing on already existing damage types.

 

I'll start with the ones that I've found. Let me know if I missed any because I tend to avoid these things because of how disruptive they are.

 

• Grendel
  • Ability: Nourish  (Viral)
• Gauss
  • Ability: Thermal Sunder
    • Augment: Thermal Transfer  (Heat, Cold)
• Ember
  • Ability: Fireball
    • Augment: Fireball Frenzy  (Heat)
• Volt
  • Ability: Shock
    • Augment: Shock Trooper  (Electricity)
• Frost
  • Ability: Freeze
    • Augment: Freeze Force  (Cold)
• Oberon
  • Ability: Smite
    • Augment: Smite Infusion  (Radiation)
• Saryn
  • Ability: Spores
    • Augment: Venom Dose  (Corrosive)

[Lunastune]

I think a good way to handle this would be to find a way to allow players to choose in a mod configuration on what elements can mix and how they mix, out of the list the only one of these that i know is used because it mixes is volts, which kind of kills it's use if it's no longer a able to be mixed in with the weapon to buff radiation, meanwhile stuff like ember or frost's augments are less desirable since the ability they are tied to also is pretty underwhelming, if anything volts is only used because they can use it as another buff when doing tridolons. So it seems its supposed to be intended to allow mixing but the other option would be maybe making it so if you opt out of mixing it'd be a seperate hit of element(which might just be used anyways bcus of it just being infinitely better). They still is a kind of status effect disparity that has been slowly decreased but not all status effects are created equal esp when alot of factions have similar weaknesses.

Meanwhile nourish is a layered ability that applies a lot of effects people do want that alot of people build with nourish in mind so it ends up not being a detriment. Oberon's augment is also tied to smite which I'm pretty sure a lot of people end up subsuming over. Guass and Saryn's probably are the most usable augments within their kits since they like using those abilities in their base form. Meanwhile Volt also has a case of the opposite with his shield where it applies electric that doesn't mix(iirc) but it's also out of the box like this.

But the fact they can shift a weapon's status distribution can be problematic, but as we have seen if it functions like saryns self buff with toxic lash it can be even more problematic in other ways. It's a complicated problem about intent and application of the abilities existing.

Edited April 6 by Lunastune
forgot Electric Shield

[Numerounius]

If we are going to the point of elemental combos, why not Speed and Haste as well then?

What we need is the universal ability to toggle squad buffs we receive.

[Rathalio]

Elemental buffs are not really as disruptive as much as you give them credit for.

Yeah it can mix elements you don't want, sure. What's the draw back? Maybe it makes you weapon a bit less optimal for a minute. But also at the same time it gives you more damage overall. So really it's just a slight annoyance. Especially when the buff is high in value.

And realistically only a few weapon builds are truly broken by an additional undesired element. AKA if you only rely on fire damage and your weapon only does that. And then the added element is able to merge with fire.

3 minutes ago, Numerounius said:

If we are going to the point of elemental combos, why not Speed and Haste as well then?

What we need is the universal ability to toggle squad buffs we receive.

Volt speed is the only buff you can get rid of in this game. You have to perform a backflip to remove it.

Edited April 6 by Rathalio

[JargenBakt]

3 minutes ago, Rathalio said:

Yeah it can mix elements you don't want, sure. What's the draw back? Maybe it makes you weapon a bit less optimal for a minute. But also at the same time it gives you more damage overall. So really it's just a slight annoyance. Especially when the buff is high in value.

There are arcanes - Primary Frostbite, Primary Blight, Cascadia Flare, Conjunction Voltage, Secondary Shiver (relies on cold procs to be present for damage) - that rely on proc'ing certain elemental status effects in order to maintain them. It's more than just a minor drawback. I'd had instances where I couldn't do any meaningful damage whatsoever for minutes at a time because I couldn't proc any of my arcanes. I kept getting buffed over and over again by my squad mates so often to the point where I just had to give up.

[Numerounius]

9 minutes ago, Rathalio said:

Volt speed is the only buff you can get rid of in this game. You have to perform a backflip to remove it.

Okay then, it is disruptive that I am forced to backflip to remove Speed every 10 seconds.

If anything, this being the solution and how tedious it can be in the heat of a moment shows why we need something greater and better for the whole batch of disruptive abilities.

That is not a solution.

[Rathalio]

1 minute ago, Numerounius said:

Okay then, it is disruptive that I am forced to backflip to remove Speed every 10 seconds.

If anything, this being the solution and how tedious it can be in the heat of a moment shows why we need something greater and better for the whole batch of disruptive abilities.

That is not a solution.

I didn't say it was perfect. I was merely pointing out that this is the only one that has something atm.

Also realistically if they give us the ability to remove other ally buffs it won't be a lot better than the example we have with Volt speed. It doesn't seem realistic nor practical to dev a new piece of interface dedicated to that. So aside for something like "now you get remove all ally buffs by performing a backflip" or something similar, I don't really see what they can do about it. And I feel like this wouldn't be enough for many people?

[Vazumongr]

On 2024-04-06 at 5:38 PM, Rathalio said:

But also at the same time it gives you more damage overall.

That's situational. If I'm running Cold against Grineer, and a Volt gives me a charge, sure I gained 100% Electricity, but I just lost my cold procs and traded my +25% against Alloy (which decreases armor in the DR calculation by 25% AND increases damage by 25%) for -50% against Alloy (which increases armor in the DR calculation by 50% AND decreases damage by 50%). That 50% armor increase + cutting damage in half is going to outweigh the 100% Electricity bonus. Just an example of how stuff like this can neuter your weapons :P

[Packetdancer]

On 2024-04-06 at 3:04 PM, Rathalio said:

Also realistically if they give us the ability to remove other ally buffs it won't be a lot better than the example we have with Volt speed. It doesn't seem realistic nor practical to dev a new piece of interface dedicated to that.

More to the point, I think the bigger problem would be how to have any granularity to it. Just let you render yourself unaffected by all squad buffs? Someone's gonna complain that now in order to avoid elemental damage bonuses they're going to have to give up Overguard, Wisp health motes, and Harrow's red crit buffs. Moreover, someone's going to want it to be specific per loadout, etc.

I can see it being done with exilus mods or something, though. Have an exilus mod for weapons which makes the weapon exempt from squad elemental bonuses, or whatever.

[sunderthefirmament]

1 hour ago, Packetdancer said:

and Harrow's red crit buffs

...which are another buff that some players may not want, if they're using the original incarnons and Devouring Attrition that is.  Just put it on the pile of ways players can accidentally compromise each other's builds.

[Packetdancer]

3 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

...which are another buff that some players may not want, if they're using the original incarnons and Devouring Attrition that is.  Just put it on the pile of ways players can accidentally compromise each other's builds.

Sure. My point was more, there's a variety of squad buffs, and if they were to just give us a blanket "disable all squad buffs," you just know some players are going to complain that they can't shut off the elemental buffs while keeping red crit buffs. Or can't shut off red crit buffs while keeping Wisp health motes. Or whatever.

I think at best you kind of have to tackle each thing one at a time, like having an exilus mod for weapons which makes them exempt from squad buffs -- elemental, red crit, whatever -- to allow folks to avoid people unintentionally breaking their builds. Even there it's not going to be perfect, because you're inevitably going to encounter someone out there who wants just exemption from elemental buffs but wants to still have red crit buffs. Or someone who wants to skip the red crit buffs but still have elemental damage. Or whatever.

The complexity of Warframe's systems is great for those who want to experiment with build variety and being creative, and supports a ton of different playstyles. Which is great! The downside is that it's almost impossible to have that level of complexity and not have it be possible for someone to mess up someone else's build; I don't think there's a simple, easy "make everyone happy" solution to this problem.

Edited April 10 by Packetdancer

[Rathalio]

11 hours ago, Packetdancer said:

More to the point, I think the bigger problem would be how to have any granularity to it. Just let you render yourself unaffected by all squad buffs? Someone's gonna complain that now in order to avoid elemental damage bonuses they're going to have to give up Overguard, Wisp health motes, and Harrow's red crit buffs. Moreover, someone's going to want it to be specific per loadout, etc.

I can see it being done with exilus mods or something, though. Have an exilus mod for weapons which makes the weapon exempt from squad elemental bonuses, or whatever.

Idk how they can do something about it. But clearly it's not as easy as it is with overguard rn. You can't simply disable all allies buffs just like that.

Although maybe the solution would be simply to no longer merge elements with the elemental buffs. It would still add another element and damage, mess a bit with you balance but then at least you don't loose your fire, ice, toxin or electricity you were counting on. Which then would still be decent imo. And for other kinds of buff I believe they are less disruptive? And Harrow's crit is only affecting poorly two weapons in game?

[JargenBakt]

2 hours ago, Rathalio said:

Although maybe the solution would be simply to no longer merge elements with the elemental buffs.

The problem you haven't mentioned yet would be status distribution. Currently they all mess with status distribution in addition to elemental merging. The only way to actually fix all this is to make the elemental buffs apply a separate hit instance identical to how Xaku's Xata's Whisper or Saryn's Toxic Lash functions.

[Rathalio]

 

1 hour ago, JargenBakt said:

The problem you haven't mentioned yet would be status distribution. Currently they all mess with status distribution in addition to elemental merging. The only way to actually fix all this is to make the elemental buffs apply a separate hit instance identical to how Xaku's Xata's Whisper or Saryn's Toxic Lash functions.

I just mentioned it though. That's "status distribution" that I was referring to when I talked about balance.

3 hours ago, Rathalio said:

It would still add another element and damage, mess a bit with your balance but then at least you don't loose your fire, ice, toxin or electricity you were counting on.

But yeah separate instance could help, and should be the privileged solution as it doesn't fundamentally change the design of these buffs and doesn't require some "opt in/out" shenanigans. (Even though they have an history of being bugged in a way or another.) I forgot that you mentioned it in your first post, kinda like everyone, no one mentioned it in any reply after your original post x) But that's probably the smartest solution after all.