PC PC Dante Unbound: Hotfix 35.5.6

[Gaxxian]

hace 12 minutos, SneakyErvin dijo:

I think the people should get used to live service games instead. Since this is normal where I come from. I also have a very hard time seeing how this would make him less spammy. You'd remove some tragedy casts, but you'd also just replace them with more DV casts.

Even then, the number of DV is variable and the result more dynamic. Right now its invariable... 334 334 334 nonstop :( Boring... i prefer by long Dagath (even when im not superfan of rotations) since she feels rewarding and consistent.

hace 14 minutos, SneakyErvin dijo:

They purchsed the frame without knowing anything regarding how the skills would work, so would have purchased him with or without LoS at release just as happily. And the time invested is practically nothing. My total mastery time on him was about 30 minutes. The forma investment might be harsh for some, but not exactly a big investment in the end.

20 hours in less than a week. I LOVED his casting gameplay and i dedicated a LOT of hours and resources into him. 10 Formas, Exilus, decorations, tau shards, etc.

hace 15 minutos, SneakyErvin dijo:

These are also people that act as if he is unplayable, it isnt a playstyle angle like you have, they are literally calling him weak and unplayable, some going to extents of claiming a drop from S tier to D tier etc

Worse, he went straight to Boring and Inconsistent Tier -_- Now i just get frustrated everytime i try him, so i stopped playing him completely.

But yeah, he isnt "weak", funny enough, he can do as much dmg as before, but in just a bad and unrewarding way D:

hace 17 minutos, SneakyErvin dijo:

But the exaggerating drooling masses? I have squat sympathy for them.

Tbh, a lot of people lost the hope pretty fast and then just started to spam the general idea "revert Dante", as a way to leave some proof of their discomfort. DE doesn't listen nor care anyway, thats for sure.

hace 6 minutos, tartcactus dijo:

Many thanks for the condolences, folks. It was my brother in law

Im so sorry for your loss :(

[Johnprofit]

40 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Have you tried him properly after the changes, since he still plays very strong as a caster frame. There is really no problem playing him as full caster, full platform or a hybrid

To be clear, im not saying he's weak. He's just very...clunky now. My gripe is that DE had a knee jerk reaction to his usage and Megan replied with "tenets" as to why they nerf things but left other abilities/frames that meet the "tenets" untouched. Some, for years.

 

Overall communication and/or lack thereof has been disappointing. 

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Gaxxian said:

Even then, the number of DV is variable and the result more dynamic. Right now its invariable... 334 334 334 nonstop :( Boring... i prefer by long Dagath (even when im not superfan of rotations) since she feels rewarding and consistent.

Variable to a minimal extent. If the mobs are strong enough for you to need to use Tragedy you are bound by a limited amount of DVs in either case, since you need the stack to kill the target when you end up detonating. If the target is weaker you can just aswell just skip Tragedy as it is now. 

7 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

20 hours in less than a week. I LOVED his casting gameplay and i dedicated a LOT of hours and resources into him. 10 Formas, Exilus, decorations, tau shards, etc.

But you didnt invest 20 hours into him. Your invested time is the mastery trip, and I very much doubt you leveled him so slowly that it took you 20h. I'm also curious what part of the caster playstyle went away for you with the nerfs. I'm about to catch up to my Kullervo in kills, playing Dante as nearly pure caster for most of the time spent on him. And I've only spent a fraction of the time on Dante compared to Kullervo, which was my most played frame of 2023. I've also played Kullervo a great deal recently and not only Dante, my Dante has also not had access to a broken Influential Dual Ichor for an extended period of time. Just his skills mostly. And he would have caught up to my Kullervo if I didnt play Kullervo alot recently aswell. Not really something you would expect from an "inconsistent" frame.

16 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

Worse, he went straight to Boring and Inconsistent Tier -_- Now i just get frustrated everytime i try him, so i stopped playing him completely.

But yeah, he isnt "weak", funny enough, he can do as much dmg as before, but in just a bad and unrewarding way D:

What exactly in your playstyle changed? Did you rely so much on attacking enemies behind walls? Because his LOS currently works near perfectly thanks to the most recent fix that also made DV work properly. Even in the most cluttered places it works without trouble, the only thing that makes it (DV or Trag) not deal damage are sraight up walls or a solid pilar blocking your view/camera angle.

24 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

Tbh, a lot of people lost the hope pretty fast and then just started to spam the general idea "revert Dante", as a way to leave some proof of their discomfort. DE doesn't listen nor care anyway, thats for sure.

That just makes them look even worse in my eyes. I also expect they've barely touched the frame after any of the fixes, and instead live on assumptions and mob mentality.

3 minutes ago, Johnprofit said:

To be clear, im not saying he's weak. He's just very...clunky now. My gripe is that DE had a knee jerk reaction to his usage and Megan replied with "tenets" as to why they nerf things but left other abilities/frames that meet the "tenets" untouched. Some, for years.

 

Overall communication and/or lack thereof has been disappointing. 

To me it is understandable that they adjusted him based on those "tenets". Just because something already exsists it doesnt mean the flood gates need to stay open for future releases. And some of those older frames live and die on that hill, their kits practically have nothing else to compensate a removal of those parts. Most of them also require far higher investments while Dante started out with high stats across the board on every skill.

Tragedy for instance has insane base damage and the largest radius in the game. Even if DE were to nerf the range instead, the abuse at lower levels would be there, since even with neutral strength he'd kill whatever he touches with Tragedy while covering the whole map. Because due to his high base skill stats, he can skip adding duration etc. So an adjustment to make him less disruptive at low levels was to add LoS. Though, moving his base damage over to the detonation on Tragedy would have also worked.

[Gaxxian]

hace 1 minuto, SneakyErvin dijo:

Variable to a minimal extent. If the mobs are strong enough for you to need to use Tragedy you are bound by a limited amount of DVs in either case, since you need the stack to kill the target when you end up detonating. If the target is weaker you can just aswell just skip Tragedy as it is now. 

Well, ofc the variables are finite... after all, too many DVs in different groups and the first one will end losing the DoTs, for example. But clearly you had more to think than just "there are 2 groups so... 334, 334". Before you could add just an extra DV to kill an extra group, or you could kill 2 different groups... You needed to choose independently on the fly. Not big brain tactical strategies, ofc, this is WF after all, but it needed more from you.

hace 5 minutos, SneakyErvin dijo:

But you didnt invest 20 hours into him. Your invested time is the mastery trip, and I very much doubt you leveled him so slowly that it took you 20h.

Well... it depends of what do you mean with "mastery trip". Do you mean +6000 exp (9k, it has a weapon)? Then just like 10 minutes. But, if we are talking about designing his build, making it, testing him, rinse and repeat until i was happy, then yeah, we are getting pretty close to the 20 hours that i played him in total. Maybe 15h.

Its not just about the frame itself, but the weapon loadout, the companion, etc. I did a build that fully sinergized with the gameplay that i wanted from him.

hace 8 minutos, SneakyErvin dijo:

What exactly in your playstyle changed? Did you rely so much on attacking enemies behind walls?

Well, before i remained mobile the full time. Things like casting once 3 to a group while i was jumping above a balcony to cast the second 3 to mark another group there and then casting 4 to kill them both. That was the normal gameplay for me, and the expected one from a frame like that one.

Now you must remain nearly static while you cast the full 334 combo, looking at the same group. So... yeah, it does the same dmg, but its boring af (and thats if a shadow doesnt stop your 4 for no reason -__-).

Its not the dynamism of choosing the numbers of 3s you caster before the 4, but the fact that you were able to move nonstop while you were doing it. All that is lost now.

hace 13 minutos, SneakyErvin dijo:

Even in the most cluttered places it works without trouble, the only thing that makes it (DV or Trag) not deal damage are sraight up walls or a solid pilar blocking your view/camera angle.

It works "perfectly" as a LoS. I tried in necracells several times... you know the high but narrow circular room where there is a big void mirror spinning at the center? I was killing like 4 to 5 enemies for each 334 while i was trying to play him as before.

I was doing way more dmg using Noctua than using abilities... so it was sad to me.

It was like night and day, unsatisfactory, boring... for that tyle of game, i could just pick a Plasmor and do the same with less effort in build and gameplay. Yet i don't pick a frame like Dante to end shoting a Plasmor....

hace 17 minutos, SneakyErvin dijo:

That just makes them look even worse in my eyes. I also expect they've barely touched the frame after any of the fixes, and instead live on assumptions and mob mentality.

🤷‍♂️

I still think that if you want things done, there are better ways. But I will not make assumptions about their experiences, i dont know if they used Dante in low levels or not (i know that i never did xD It was a surprise when i learnt that he did indeed was a problem at low levels), i don't know either if they tried him after the nerfs.

I also dont fault them for losing hope when DE showed us that they don't care at all about what we said. Why writting long ass explanations with detailed feedback when DE will act like you dont exist anyway?

[SneakyErvin]

4 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

Well, ofc the variables are finite... after all, too many DVs in different groups and the first one will end losing the DoTs, for example. But clearly you had more to think than just "there are 2 groups so... 334, 334". Before you could add just an extra DV to kill an extra group, or you could kill 2 different groups... You needed to choose independently on the fly. Not big brain tactical strategies, ofc, this is WF after all, but it needed more from you.

Sure, but you still can, unless you are in very specific situations/areas. Things that are far and few in between.

6 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

Well... it depends of what do you mean with "mastery trip". Do you mean +6000 exp (9k, it has a weapon)? Then just like 10 minutes. But, if we are talking about designing his build, making it, testing him, rinse and repeat until i was happy, then yeah, we are getting pretty close to the 20 hours that i played him in total. Maybe 15h.

Its not just about the frame itself, but the weapon loadout, the companion, etc. I did a build that fully sinergized with the gameplay that i wanted from him.

But that is insanely long. From beginning to having a finished build it took me about 30 minutes to have him ready. He isnt a complex frame to build thanks to his stats and straight forward skills. At that point I practically had two setups I experimented a little with, mostly seeing if I should go with more strength+dura or just add efficiency plus capping it. So say an hour total to figure out which build to actually settle with in the slots I had polarized.

13 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

Well, before i remained mobile the full time. Things like casting once 3 to a group while i was jumping above a balcony to cast the second 3 to mark another group there and then casting 4 to kill them both. That was the normal gameplay for me, and the expected one from a frame like that one.

Now you must remain nearly static while you cast the full 334 combo, looking at the same group. So... yeah, it does the same dmg, but its boring af (and thats if a shadow doesnt stop your 4 for no reason -__-).

Its not the dynamism of choosing the numbers of 3s you caster before the 4, but the fact that you were able to move nonstop while you were doing it. All that is lost now.

You can still do that with LoS. The 360 LoS is reliable in its current state. That you exaggerate to the point where you say shadows stop it makes me wonder how much you've played him after that friday patch or more importantly after the recent DV fix. It's is extremely hard to run into a situation where either of the two skills get blocked by anything. My main issue with him since release was DV failing to mark up until it was fixed.

20 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

It works "perfectly" as a LoS. I tried in necracells several times... you know the high but narrow circular room where there is a big void mirror spinning at the center? I was killing like 4 to 5 enemies for each 334 while i was trying to play him as before.

I was doing way more dmg using Noctua than using abilities... so it was sad to me.

It was like night and day, unsatisfactory, boring... for that tyle of game, i could just pick a Plasmor and do the same with less effort in build and gameplay. Yet i don't pick a frame like Dante to end shoting a Plasmor....

I've done the same room and I've had no issues there with hitting things infront of or behind me. I had some issues with priming in Labs (not just that room) prior to the fix, even across a few simple elevations, but nothing since the DV fix.

27 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

🤷‍♂️

I still think that if you want things done, there are better ways. But I will not make assumptions about their experiences, i dont know if they used Dante in low levels or not (i know that i never did xD It was a surprise when i learnt that he did indeed was a problem at low levels), i don't know either if they tried him after the nerfs.

I also dont fault them for losing hope when DE showed us that they don't care at all about what we said. Why writting long ass explanations with detailed feedback when DE will act like you dont exist anyway?

I think they did, and I think most potential feedback regading him being disruptive came from there. I'm more shocked when DE tests things in high level content.

DE probably saw the LoS problem from the first change and directly saw an opportunity to fix it and several other similar mechanics instead of just doing something else specifically tied to Tragedy. Doing something that can benefit several different parts is likely seen as more beneficial than doing something very narrow that only affects a single thing. That is how I'd look at it, make this one thing better or make all these things better? I'd go option two without a doubt. Not only due to it fixing several things, but because it also paves the way for further similar implementation in a working state right out the door.

[Nero.DMC]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I was just used to it from the start, since I already enjoyed my caster Dagath, which is practically built as a full rotation RPG caster going through 1 to 4 constantly. But yeah I can see how Dante is spammy. Heck, my main gripe with Dante is that they placed his 3 buff icons in the buff bar and not above his tome UI. Resulting in me rebuffing more often than needed, since I follow my Roar duration instead, since it is easy to spot on the skill bar. While tracking the Dante buffs among 2 full lines of buffs all of the same color is nearly impossible.

Yeah it's mostly on the real defense targets, including the living version where it seems to have its own will regarding how long it wants to last. Buffed one up to max together with the group but the next second I turn over to the defense target the OG is gone.

I think the people should get used to live service games instead. Since this is normal where I come from. I also have a very hard time seeing how this would make him less spammy. You'd remove some tragedy casts, but you'd also just replace them with more DV casts. The people that also wave the money card are sadly just exaggerating. They purchsed the frame without knowing anything regarding how the skills would work, so would have purchased him with or without LoS at release just as happily. And the time invested is practically nothing. My total mastery time on him was about 30 minutes. The forma investment might be harsh for some, but not exactly a big investment in the end.

These are also people that act as if he is unplayable, it isnt a playstyle angle like you have, they are literally calling him weak and unplayable, some going to extents of claiming a drop from S tier to D tier etc. These people should not be listened to, since they only talk random crap and have likely barely touched the frame or taken him to anything but low level S#&$. Most likely will also just want the AoE back to keep destroying low level S#&$. Hence why we see all the "remove LoS but reduce range", cos they dont care about priming at all. And they know that even with a 20m range they can dump strength for range mod and still wipe the star chart with neutral strength and low modding investments.

I completely understand your personal angle, since you enjoyed a specific playstyle. And we all grow attached to things. But the exaggerating drooling masses? I have squat sympathy for them.

yah he was only unplayable for like a day before they fixed LoS for tragedy but still a lot of ppl dropped dante b/c he no longer is fun to play for them.

agreed on the icons, that would be like 1000x better like the icons titania has would be really great to have

about spamming abilities beside buffs, before you could mark move mark move and detonate, so for 2-3 groups of enemies you could just do 3-4 cast total, now you need to do 6-9 cast for the same groups, this ofc is worst case scenario where all groups cant see each other, but its more common than one would think, i have played dante a lot from his first day, and cast per kills were much lower when he had no LoS and ofc i had to move in ways that would let me quickly mark and detonate more groups, i dont think i am much slower now (kps wise) but i am much more bored while spamming without having to really think when i should detonate or if i want to risk marking more enemies.

About regular chart problems i have been giving this a lot of tought but honestly there is a bunch of frames that can clear so much of star chart, we are in that moment of powercreep where even a hellminth ability will have similar results of clearing super fast

[Gaxxian]

hace 1 hora, SneakyErvin dijo:

Sure, but you still can, unless you are in very specific situations/areas. Things that are far and few in between.

Nop, its not the same :( You cannot kill "on the run" as before.

hace 1 hora, SneakyErvin dijo:

But that is insanely long. From beginning to having a finished build it took me about 30 minutes to have him ready. He isnt a complex frame to build thanks to his stats and straight forward skills. At that point I practically had two setups I experimented a little with, mostly seeing if I should go with more strength+dura or just add efficiency plus capping it. So say an hour total to figure out which build to actually settle with in the slots I had polarized.

Ik ^^! I had a lots of problems with Noctua... I was wanting to use the weapon's passive to put as many +60% ability buff as i could, and then use it to put extra oomph into the abilities... but... it just wasnt worth it ^^! Maybe if Wordwarden was a better ability, you could recharge Noctua's alt fire more consistently, but isnt, so maintaining all the buffs ended being a little too stressful to my taste, so i made a lot of changes and tests.

Then i did from zero a build for the companions (several, until i found the perfect one to me, Diriga to activate that Archon Reach and giving aoe virals and free ability casts) and the weapon (a Helstrum that added a lot of slashes and viral around the room, using Duplex Bond for extra spread and energy).

And I went like that for every piece of equipment... ^^!

hace 1 hora, SneakyErvin dijo:

You can still do that with LoS. The 360 LoS is reliable in its current state. That you exaggerate to the point where you say shadows stop it makes me wonder how much you've played him after that friday patch or more importantly after the recent DV fix. It's is extremely hard to run into a situation where either of the two skills get blocked by anything. My main issue with him since release was DV failing to mark up until it was fixed.

I'd seen enemies in front of me not receiving Tragedy explosion. Oh, and Dante stopping your own abilities still happens too. I've personally never had any issues with DV (i'd say that it was pretty bearable, at least).

LoS for DV is great, DV NEEDS LoS. And its great that they improved LoS. But its not the same for Tragedy ^^!

hace 1 hora, SneakyErvin dijo:

I've done the same room and I've had no issues there with hitting things infront of or behind me. I had some issues with priming in Labs (not just that room) prior to the fix, even across a few simple elevations, but nothing since the DV fix.

You can hit, and kill, but you need to use x4 times more times 334 than before. Its not agile nor rewarding. I could pick my Inaros with his Exec and kill easier, faster and more dinamically. So, to me, Dante is dead because he is boring to play now.

hace 1 hora, SneakyErvin dijo:

I think they did, and I think most potential feedback regading him being disruptive came from there. I'm more shocked when DE tests things in high level content.

DE probably saw the LoS problem from the first change and directly saw an opportunity to fix it and several other similar mechanics instead of just doing something else specifically tied to Tragedy. Doing something that can benefit several different parts is likely seen as more beneficial than doing something very narrow that only affects a single thing. That is how I'd look at it, make this one thing better or make all these things better? I'd go option two without a doubt. Not only due to it fixing several things, but because it also paves the way for further similar implementation in a working state right out the door.

No, they went to the knee jerk and rushed solution. They could have done a lot of things (removing base dmg from Tragedy as an easier one), but they didnt.

Them improving LoS (and OG interactions) is good (and it was about time, i'd say, they should have done those changes ages ago), but they didn't need to kill Dante's gameplay in the process.

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

yah he was only unplayable for like a day before they fixed LoS for tragedy but still a lot of ppl dropped dante b/c he no longer is fun to play for them.

agreed on the icons, that would be like 1000x better like the icons titania has would be really great to have

about spamming abilities beside buffs, before you could mark move mark move and detonate, so for 2-3 groups of enemies you could just do 3-4 cast total, now you need to do 6-9 cast for the same groups, this ofc is worst case scenario where all groups cant see each other, but its more common than one would think, i have played dante a lot from his first day, and cast per kills were much lower when he had no LoS and ofc i had to move in ways that would let me quickly mark and detonate more groups, i dont think i am much slower now (kps wise) but i am much more bored while spamming without having to really think when i should detonate or if i want to risk marking more enemies.

About regular chart problems i have been giving this a lot of tought but honestly there is a bunch of frames that can clear so much of star chart, we are in that moment of powercreep where even a hellminth ability will have similar results of clearing super fast

I think a big reason why Dante got LoS-nerfed while others can still wipe maps is because DE dont want to add more problems to the pile, and maybe hopefully intend to start cracking down on those aswell.

I'm totally with you on the part that you might feel it is more boring. And I respect that opinion since you dont try to scew it into being an issue of power. Which cant be said when it comes to many others.

19 hours ago, Gaxxian said:

Nop, its not the same :( You cannot kill "on the run" as before.

I most places you can unless you find yourself constantly in areas with alot of solid wall. I have a hard time finding those places myself. But it is likely also due to how I prefer my flow when picking a killing floor. If I need to move DV is enough to kill and move, especially versus armor since it is forced slash.

19 hours ago, Gaxxian said:

Ik ^^! I had a lots of problems with Noctua... I was wanting to use the weapon's passive to put as many +60% ability buff as i could, and then use it to put extra oomph into the abilities... but... it just wasnt worth it ^^! Maybe if Wordwarden was a better ability, you could recharge Noctua's alt fire more consistently, but isnt, so maintaining all the buffs ended being a little too stressful to my taste, so i made a lot of changes and tests.

Then i did from zero a build for the companions (several, until i found the perfect one to me, Diriga to activate that Archon Reach and giving aoe virals and free ability casts) and the weapon (a Helstrum that added a lot of slashes and viral around the room, using Duplex Bond for extra spread and energy).

And I went like that for every piece of equipment... ^^!

Sadly Noctua is counter productive to wordwarden and wordwarden is counter productive to Noctua. And it kinda becomes just another Exalted problem in the end. Since even if Noctua can deal heaps of damage, you are better off modding it for wordwarden and using a regular weapon to pump out the extra damage provided by wordwarden. Since if you mod Noctua to be used you end up with the same damage on wordwarden and recieve less damage from the buff aswell due to "worse" modding. If modded for wordwarden you can get a free extra element or more, along with slash for whatever weapon you otherwise use. And since it is based around the attack rate of your weapon it can pump out alot of extra damage and statuses, which not only deals damage but adds further damage from gundition overload/CO. Which is great if you run Influence, since you need electric on your melee at that point, so you cant slot heat, but wordwarden provides you with that heat instead at a high rate.

And this whole wordwarden thing is also what makes playing a full caster Dante less appealing for me. Why it doesnt trigger on Dark Verse similar to how Fractured Blast directs the crystal on Citrine is beyond me.

19 hours ago, Gaxxian said:

I'd seen enemies in front of me not receiving Tragedy explosion. Oh, and Dante stopping your own abilities still happens too. I've personally never had any issues with DV (i'd say that it was pretty bearable, at least).

LoS for DV is great, DV NEEDS LoS. And its great that they improved LoS. But its not the same for Tragedy ^^!

Never had Dante stop an ability aside from DV and not a single time since the most recent fix to it. I never experienced it with Tragedy since I didnt play him on the thursday that he got the bugged LoS added to Tragedy. I played him again on the saturday, right after that LoS friday fix and have had no issues since aside from a few on DV, which are also gone now. So I wonder what the bug is if some still experience it.

19 hours ago, Gaxxian said:

You can hit, and kill, but you need to use x4 times more times 334 than before. Its not agile nor rewarding. I could pick my Inaros with his Exec and kill easier, faster and more dinamically. So, to me, Dante is dead because he is boring to play now.

I use the same amount as before, in that room I position myself high (or jump detonate) if things are below, since at that point no side is blocked by the center platform supporting the mirror thingy. If I stand lower with the platform blocking the middle I will obviously not expect to hit, since it is a thick concrete structure. If I stand under the stairs looking into the room I'll hit it all, left/right stair, balconies and lower left/right of platform.

19 hours ago, Gaxxian said:

No, they went to the knee jerk and rushed solution. They could have done a lot of things (removing base dmg from Tragedy as an easier one), but they didnt.

Them improving LoS (and OG interactions) is good (and it was about time, i'd say, they should have done those changes ages ago), but they didn't need to kill Dante's gameplay in the process.

They could have, but there is nothing that says it would be better, since it would result in its own issues in other situations. Low levels do play the game aswell. So removing the damage on Tragedy would solve lowbie mapwide nuking, but it wouldnt help newbies that play Dante, since they wouldnt be able to use Tragedy to kill on its own versus a group of enemies in sight either. They dont have the energy management we do, which also needs to be considered.

Edited April 27 by SneakyErvin

[Nero.DMC]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

They could have, but there is nothing that says it would be better, since it would result in its own issues in other situations. Low levels do play the game aswell. So removing the damage on Tragedy would solve lowbie mapwide nuking, but it wouldnt help newbies that play Dante, since they wouldnt be able to use Tragedy to kill on its own versus a group of enemies in sight either. They dont have the energy management we do, which also needs to be considered.

this is an issue tho, you (and to be honest we all) know that depending on the tile he still hit a lot of enemies, so he is still as  disruptive in low level play (conditionally to the tile and settings) that feels like a non fix for the thing that was the biggest issue for dante, being too disruptive on low lvl play

[Gandalf_White]

On 2024-04-26 at 5:16 PM, Johnprofit said:

To be clear, im not saying he's weak. He's just very...clunky now.

This is why people want the LoS on Tragedy reverted, but some just don't get it and go with the "um ackshually he is still one of the strongest warframes ever 🤓" and completely miss the point.

Edited April 28 by Gandalf_White

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

I'm still crossing my fingers that DE will reexamine how Overguard works with armor and DR abilities. Right now, Dante just shuts off any need for defensive play or abilities from other support frames, which is pretty disruptive. Not certain how they'd go about fixing the issue without further nerfs, but hopefully there's a solution out there somewhere.

And I see some people still can't figure out why the strongest support frame in the game having the strongest nuke in the game might just be an issue.

I know Warframe is a game that doesn't require a master's degree to play or understand, but on the forums it really shows.

[DogeManX]

8 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

I'm still crossing my fingers that DE will reexamine how Overguard works with armor and DR abilities. Right now, Dante just shuts off any need for defensive play or abilities from other support frames, which is pretty disruptive. Not certain how they'd go about fixing the issue without further nerfs, but hopefully there's a solution out there somewhere.

And I see some people still can't figure out why the strongest support frame in the game having the strongest nuke in the game might just be an issue.

I know Warframe is a game that doesn't require a master's degree to play or understand, but on the forums it really shows.

If Dante gets touched again, I'm touching you.

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

51 minutes ago, DogeManX said:

If Dante gets touched again, I'm touching you.

I accept full responsibility for any further nerfs! 🫥

[Nero.DMC]

8 hours ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

I'm still crossing my fingers that DE will reexamine how Overguard works with armor and DR abilities. Right now, Dante just shuts off any need for defensive play or abilities from other support frames, which is pretty disruptive. Not certain how they'd go about fixing the issue without further nerfs, but hopefully there's a solution out there somewhere.

And I see some people still can't figure out why the strongest support frame in the game having the strongest nuke in the game might just be an issue.

I know Warframe is a game that doesn't require a master's degree to play or understand, but on the forums it really shows.

Dante is not even close to being a strong support frame, he actually is pretty bad at supporting, survability is easy af in warframe... if that's what you are looking for in support frames you are clearly playing a completely different game... he gives party a book (wich is minimal damage in any kind of high level play and he buff status damage on a few enemies)

Meanwhile Wisp make you incredible strong and fast/ Harrow makes you incredible strong and invulnerable from time to time also regens your energy/Citrine/Trinity/Nekros/ETC all are much more desirable supports, having a Dante in your party is a non factor players already have ways to become immortal in any kind of high level play only in low level OG is really that strong, i think every way of immortality should be removed tbh but that requieres way too many changes from DE

Even Hildrin is a better support than Dante, she can armor strip 100% in a huge area, and she can be built to give energy to everyone every few seconds.

SO no Dante is not a particularly good support, his main support ability is giving OG that is very strong on low level but get shreded on any kind of high level play, i agree tho OG is not a good mechanic in general not in styanax not in Dante specially b/c both can regenerate it fast enough to OG shieldgate

[SneakyErvin]

On 2024-04-27 at 6:02 PM, Nero.DMC said:

this is an issue tho, you (and to be honest we all) know that depending on the tile he still hit a lot of enemies, so he is still as  disruptive in low level play (conditionally to the tile and settings) that feels like a non fix for the thing that was the biggest issue for dante, being too disruptive on low lvl play

To a point yeah but it is now confined to "just" a room if the room is open enough. Previously he could stand in the middle of a defense and hit a whole map without actually moving, or just blow his DV as he moved through other tiles and nuke like Enox in 3 simple button presses. If we compare that to Enox she needs either others to do something or need to do something herself with her weapons. Limiting the nuke since it requires build up for map wide nuke. And Lavos that also reaches far is tied to a long CD that also depends on enemy density in order to refil at a rather acceptable rate.

The main difference now is that others in the group can get away from him and do something. You cant really run away from a 50m+ nuke, you can move to another room when that 50m+ nuke has LoS.

9 hours ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

I'm still crossing my fingers that DE will reexamine how Overguard works with armor and DR abilities. Right now, Dante just shuts off any need for defensive play or abilities from other support frames, which is pretty disruptive. Not certain how they'd go about fixing the issue without further nerfs, but hopefully there's a solution out there somewhere.

And I see some people still can't figure out why the strongest support frame in the game having the strongest nuke in the game might just be an issue.

I know Warframe is a game that doesn't require a master's degree to play or understand, but on the forums it really shows.

Honestly at that point they need to change all skills or well damage avoiding effects. Since one will always override the need of another in a group, including two of the same frame. And if you start to change OG you also need to account for solo play exsisting, so if you change it to cater to other DR effects in groups you also need to keep it reliable for solo play without those effects included. So I'd say at that point make all OG skills personal, then others can take care of their own survival.

The only real problem with OG/Mesmer Skin is that it was/is intrusive on builds that require a condition. DR and Armor are not required conditions, it doesnt matter if you dont get to benefit from them, so OG is fixed and the thing that needs fixing is the #*!%ing Mesmer Skin augment. Outside of that a person picking a DR frame instead of OG had no interest to bring the best defense buffing in the game when they entered the group, so shouldnt be catered to either incase their defense gets outshined by another. And people doing premades likely have a perfectly working brain to figure out which defenses they need/want to bring.

If they wanna change OG they should do so if they simply find it too good as a defensive option, not to cater to other skills. Unless you say you wanna allow DR and armor to sync with OG, which would just be ridiculous.

12 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

Dante is not even close to being a strong support frame, he actually is pretty bad at supporting

13 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

he gives party a book (wich is minimal damage in any kind of high level play

14 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

Meanwhile Wisp make you incredible strong and fast/ Harrow makes you incredible strong and invulnerable from time to time also regens your energy/Citrine/Trinity/Nekros/ETC all are much more desirable supports, having a Dante in your party is a non factor players already have ways to become immortal in any kind of high level play only in low level OG is really that strong, i think every way of immortality should be removed tbh but that requieres way too many changes from DE

Even Hildrin is a better support than Dante, she can armor strip 100% in a huge area, and she can be built to give energy to everyone every few seconds.

Ok I'm starting to question your Dante experience again. I mean, these are some serious exaggerations. He practically brings a 45sec baseline Mesmer Skin effect. He has one of the best damage buffs for groups, since he is the only one that provides others with slash (outside of direct targets hit by Seeking Talons), it also deals damage based on how fast you deal damage. Even his specter grants a reasonable boost to damage in its unmodded state.

The others arent really coming close. Wisp bring unwanted speed for many, since people have likely already built enough to their needs, and more can break things, plus it does not provide reload speed. Her health is just health along with poor regen. OG will outshine that no matter the frame that provides it. Trinity has been worthless for years, Citrine while great "only" provides DR and Orbs. Nekros practically does nothing worthwhile since he does what a pet can do, add health orbs. Oh and he clutters up the screen with shadows, that sometimes block friendly projectiles etc due to bubbles.

Harrow is pointless in groups and rarely has the time to get his crit up in a group since while he tries to stack damage, others are killing things. And in this day and age of the game energy is already a trivialized things in any proper build, so those benefits arent really high on the list. Most people even tend to replace Harrows energy reg buff since it is his weakest skill in the kit. And then for Hildryn, who needs a dedicated armor stripper when everyone in the group gets access to slash on their weapons?

 

Edited April 29 by SneakyErvin

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Honestly at that point they need to change all skills or well damage avoiding effects. Since one will always override the need of another in a group, including two of the same frame. And if you start to change OG you also need to account for solo play exsisting, so if you change it to cater to other DR effects in groups you also need to keep it reliable for solo play without those effects included. So I'd say at that point make all OG skills personal, then others can take care of their own survival.

DE tends to dig holes for themselves, and I think OG is one such pit. It being made available to our frames in limited quantities was fine, since it has no DR and can get wiped pretty quickly without sufficient generation; DR abilities still had a place because OG going down was pretty much inevitable as enemy damage ramped up. Dante changes the game on that through sheer volume of OG generated.

As I said, I don't have any specific solutions to the problem, but that's certainly one way to go about it. Ideally, there's a solution out there that doesn't entail further nerfs to Dante's OG generation, or restricting OG entirely, but at this point I haven't done enough brainstorming on the subject and don't want to get touched.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The only real problem with OG/Mesmer Skin is that it was/is intrusive on builds that require a condition. DR and Armor are not required conditions, it doesnt matter if you dont get to benefit from them, so OG is fixed and the thing that needs fixing is the #*!%ing Mesmer Skin augment. Outside of that a person picking a DR frame instead of OG had no interest to bring the best defense buffing in the game when they entered the group, so shouldnt be catered to either incase their defense gets outshined by another.

Well, to look at it another way, why was the AOE meta bad? Why was Dante having a non-LOS nuke with 70 meters range bad? Why do people complain about Thermal Sunder Titanias or even Saryns at lower levels? It's not like you need enemies alive to use your abilities or play the game, after all. Heck, if everything is instantly dead before you can get a shot off, that's good, right? You don't have to worry about dying, or shooting, or doing much of anything besides sitting there and watching the mission timer go up. That's fun, right? It's not invalidating how you play, after all. You can just do some parkour while you wait, or maybe spend some time on the forums arguing about who is the best frame.

DR stacks, so having more isn't a detriment to existing DR abilities. If a Trinity and a Citrine both join a mission, Trin's 4 and Citrine's 2 don't invalidate each other; they enhance each other. If a Dante joins, however, suddenly both of their DR abilities have zero utility unless Dante isn't paying attention to OG bars or goes AFK, or runs out of energy if the Trin REALLY isn't paying attention. Obviously this falls off at higher levels, but the point remains that OG as an extra layer on top of everything else invalidates other DRs entirely until it's removed through damage or expiry.

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And people doing premades likely have a perfectly working brain to figure out which defenses they need/want to bring.

Premades are non-disruptive pretty much by definition, since everyone going in has prior knowledge/coordination to work with. That's very much not the case for pubs, which is where most of the complaints around disruptive styles and abilities come into play.

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Outside of that a person picking a DR frame instead of OG had no interest to bring the best defense buffing in the game when they entered the group, so shouldnt be catered to either incase their defense gets outshined by another.

Why should anyone play anything other than Revenant with Mesmer Skin's augment at that point, if their goal is to provide the best defensive buffs? I completely agree with the Mesmer Skin issues, but I don't think that catering to a specific DR meta damage invalidation meta like that is the way to go. If someone is interested in playing frames that don't generate Overguard, or rather, interested in playing something other than Dante/Styanax/Frost or even Revenant, I don't think they should be getting shafted for it as the meta shifts further into OG. Finding some way for OG and DR to synergize or at least not invalidate one in favor of the other is the ideal, imo.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

If they wanna change OG they should do so if they simply find it too good as a defensive option, not to cater to other skills. Unless you say you wanna allow DR and armor to sync with OG, which would just be ridiculous.

OG syncing with armor/DR would be broken unless there was some reduction to OG generation or efficacy of DR applying to OG. Like I said, I don't have any proposed solutions at the moment, but awareness of the problem can get minds greater than mine thinking on it.

 

[Nero.DMC]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Ok I'm starting to question your Dante experience again. I mean, these are some serious exaggerations. He practically brings a 45sec baseline Mesmer Skin effect. He has one of the best damage buffs for groups, since he is the only one that provides others with slash (outside of direct targets hit by Seeking Talons), it also deals damage based on how fast you deal damage. Even his specter grants a reasonable boost to damage in its unmodded state.

OG is good but lets be honest anywhere you go over 100 ppl already solved surviving on their own, you are just making their immortality easier to keep, but people is not really dying on high level play, maybe i am disconnected from lower level play but i dont see anyone dying much all frames can survive on their own and anyone building them right will make any frame immortal for the most part.

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The others arent really coming close. Wisp bring unwanted speed for many, since people have likely already built enough to their needs, and more can break things, plus it does not provide reload speed. Her health is just health along with poor regen. OG will outshine that no matter the frame that provides it. Trinity has been worthless for years, Citrine while great "only" provides DR and Orbs. Nekros practically does nothing worthwhile since he does what a pet can do, add health orbs. Oh and he clutters up the screen with shadows, that sometimes block friendly projectiles etc due to bubbles.

Wisp gives you extra fire rate/melee atk speed and fire rate (with how strong weapons are this is pretty dam strong) Health regen and health that is pretty irrelevant for most frames and shock that is great as an aoe CC for all team, for team utility wisp is very good. and yeah OG is better than the defensive buff wisp gives but defence is already solved on most ppl, ppl dont die, offensive buffs let you do stuff faster and even tho sometimes unwanted the speed buff on wisp help you finish stuff faster wich is what most high level players want (i personally would rather have a wisp on my team than a dante is just a faster mision with wisp than it will be with dante, i dont need anyone giving me OG i can survive on my own as everyone playing SP should).

Nekros gives extra drop  (so energy + life drops) full armor strip in a huge area, you dont use his shadows. just for the extra drop alone i would take Nekros over Dante.

Trinity fair enough, but her kit is more support focused than Dante she is just outdated

Citrine provides status chance and status duration (on a status heavy meta) so i disagree, she provides more than Dante, and again i dont need defensive buffs from my party to survive.

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Honestly at that point they need to change all skills or well damage avoiding effects.

Its even worse than that, they would need to change the game as a whole, we have little to no control on how much damage we take, the meta is always invulneravility or absurd amount of damage reduction, in order to make the game enjoyable they need to give us counterplay and ways to avoid being damaged in the first place then remove immortality from us but without the first step it would be awful, rn every frame is practically immortal by design they have to be that way (shield gate, OG Gate, Mesmer Skin or super high armor/avoidance/DR) because lets be honest you are not going to go around dodging bullets or taking cover xD

Edited April 29 by Nero.DMC

[SneakyErvin]

On 2024-04-29 at 7:03 PM, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

DE tends to dig holes for themselves, and I think OG is one such pit. It being made available to our frames in limited quantities was fine, since it has no DR and can get wiped pretty quickly without sufficient generation; DR abilities still had a place because OG going down was pretty much inevitable as enemy damage ramped up. Dante changes the game on that through sheer volume of OG generated.

As I said, I don't have any specific solutions to the problem, but that's certainly one way to go about it. Ideally, there's a solution out there that doesn't entail further nerfs to Dante's OG generation, or restricting OG entirely, but at this point I haven't done enough brainstorming on the subject and don't want to get touched.

Dante didnt change much since we already had both Frost and Styanax. He just got a slightly better version since he is the first frame with innate group OG.

 

On 2024-04-29 at 7:03 PM, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

Well, to look at it another way, why was the AOE meta bad? Why was Dante having a non-LOS nuke with 70 meters range bad? Why do people complain about Thermal Sunder Titanias or even Saryns at lower levels? It's not like you need enemies alive to use your abilities or play the game, after all. Heck, if everything is instantly dead before you can get a shot off, that's good, right? You don't have to worry about dying, or shooting, or doing much of anything besides sitting there and watching the mission timer go up. That's fun, right? It's not invalidating how you play, after all. You can just do some parkour while you wait, or maybe spend some time on the forums arguing about who is the best frame.

DR stacks, so having more isn't a detriment to existing DR abilities. If a Trinity and a Citrine both join a mission, Trin's 4 and Citrine's 2 don't invalidate each other; they enhance each other. If a Dante joins, however, suddenly both of their DR abilities have zero utility unless Dante isn't paying attention to OG bars or goes AFK, or runs out of energy if the Trin REALLY isn't paying attention. Obviously this falls off at higher levels, but the point remains that OG as an extra layer on top of everything else invalidates other DRs entirely until it's removed through damage or expiry.

The first part leaves you with nothing to do, although people that complain about AoE guns are severely exaggerating their impact on what they get to do in a mission.

The second part however doesnt alienate anyone. It makes 1 part of a kit less useful in specific group combinations. Which can be avoided in order to get 100% use and sync out of the kit by doing pre-mades. OG is in the end just a layer of defense ontop of another, if it falls off the other pieces are there to protect. It would really just be an issue if it blocked some important effect people would rely on. And in the end it comes down to what would happen in PuGs and the design intent of a whole frame. Change OG like I mentioned so it is personal, then all of a sudden Dante would no longer be a support frame, and it would only be relevant to make other support frame players happy in PuGs. It is not a class based game where we suddenly got another mandatory class for a group invalidating others, since you wont end up with a Dante while playing Citrine or Trin often enough for this to be an issue, since we have 56 different frames that may end up in your PuGs. And in a premade it shouldnt be a problem, since if you for some reason must see guaranteed use of every single skill, then you simply just dont stack different defense options or include frames that cannot benefit from whatever defense you bring.

On 2024-04-29 at 7:03 PM, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

Premades are non-disruptive pretty much by definition, since everyone going in has prior knowledge/coordination to work with. That's very much not the case for pubs, which is where most of the complaints around disruptive styles and abilities come into play.

And OG isnt disruptive. It is just a defense option. It would be just as disruptive if it turns into a personal buff for every frame, since that poor Citrine that needs to see her Shell do something at all times would be equally heartbroken and pissy if she ended up with a Rhino, Dante and Styanax after an OG change, since none of those would benefit from her welfare Shell, because they'd all be under the effects of OG 24/7. It is a mind ghost the idea that OG is dusruptive, because your skills are just still in effect incase the OG breaks.

On 2024-04-29 at 7:03 PM, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

Why should anyone play anything other than Revenant with Mesmer Skin's augment at that point, if their goal is to provide the best defensive buffs? I completely agree with the Mesmer Skin issues, but I don't think that catering to a specific DR meta damage invalidation meta like that is the way to go. If someone is interested in playing frames that don't generate Overguard, or rather, interested in playing something other than Dante/Styanax/Frost or even Revenant, I don't think they should be getting shafted for it as the meta shifts further into OG. Finding some way for OG and DR to synergize or at least not invalidate one in favor of the other is the ideal, imo.

Why? Because goes into it. Rev has MS with the augment, that is it. His kit is overall just bad otherwise. It is also a disruptive skill in its current state since it practically ruins whole builds, which can result in the group overall dealing less damage simply because Rev brought augmented Mesmer. All of the other support frames just bring so much more than Rev can ever do. The skill also needs constant upkeep compared to many others due to only having 5 charges for group memebers, it also does jack S#&$ for companions and specters etc. Also, no one is catered to atm, frames just work as they work. What we look at is the "issues" of PuG, where you sign up fully aware of how things might be and that not all of your skills may be useful among the 3 other random people you decide to play with. 

On 2024-04-29 at 7:03 PM, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

OG syncing with armor/DR would be broken unless there was some reduction to OG generation or efficacy of DR applying to OG. Like I said, I don't have any proposed solutions at the moment, but awareness of the problem can get minds greater than mine thinking on it.

And if you want OG changed you should also consider every other skill that doesnt work together with another or itself. Since this is an old "issues" in the game not just connected to OG and DR skills. 2x Wisp, 2x Saryn, 2x Dante, 2x Oberon, 2x Rev, 2x Rhino etc. where one is invalidated by the other since the skills do not stack. So getting a Dante and a Citrine in the same group is really no different from getting 2x or more of other frames in the same group. Atleast with a Citrnine and a Dante the Citrine Shell is there incase OG drops.

On 2024-04-29 at 7:06 PM, Nero.DMC said:

OG is good but lets be honest anywhere you go over 100 ppl already solved surviving on their own, you are just making their immortality easier to keep, but people is not really dying on high level play, maybe i am disconnected from lower level play but i dont see anyone dying much all frames can survive on their own and anyone building them right will make any frame immortal for the most part.

Which applies to every other form of group survival improvement aswell. OG doesnt go from being the best to worse than those worse than it just because the need isnt really there, since the need isnt really there for those worse options either, so they remain worse than OG still.

On 2024-04-29 at 7:06 PM, Nero.DMC said:

Wisp gives you extra fire rate/melee atk speed and fire rate (with how strong weapons are this is pretty dam strong) Health regen and health that is pretty irrelevant for most frames and shock that is great as an aoe CC for all team, for team utility wisp is very good. and yeah OG is better than the defensive buff wisp gives but defence is already solved on most ppl, ppl dont die, offensive buffs let you do stuff faster and even tho sometimes unwanted the speed buff on wisp help you finish stuff faster wich is what most high level players want (i personally would rather have a wisp on my team than a dante is just a faster mision with wisp than it will be with dante, i dont need anyone giving me OG i can survive on my own as everyone playing SP should).

Nekros gives extra drop  (so energy + life drops) full armor strip in a huge area, you dont use his shadows. just for the extra drop alone i would take Nekros over Dante.

Trinity fair enough, but her kit is more support focused than Dante she is just outdated

Citrine provides status chance and status duration (on a status heavy meta) so i disagree, she provides more than Dante, and again i dont need defensive buffs from my party to survive.

Speed is just speed though and sometimes ends up making things perform worse than their modded intended state. Dante still provides simple pure extra damage and status effects that do not interfear with any of your modded intent. A Noctua modded for heat will simply provide a bunch of extra slash and heat damage along with extra individual heat and slash procs as you attack. And "finish stuff faster" only applies to the one-off missions where you dont really care about anything anyways. Places where I wouldnt even consider which frame might have the best support and I likely take something that is simply fast to clear the mission with overall, with little thought on the others in the group. In missions where you stay, the shear output from Dante along with his buffs and TTL support makes him a better choice than Wisp, since he doesnt have a single skill that interrupts the flow or builds of others. Shock motes are one of those skills in the game that really gets my eye twitching. Even playing solo I mostly use health mote since it is the only way to allow me to build for high health without screwing up my weapons modding or sprint speed aswell. And shock mote I wouldnt wanna really touch even with a ten foot pole.

But if you dont need OG you dont need the extra orbs either most likely. And Terrify is probably the second skill in the game that makes my eye twitch due to the massive range and forced fear scattering enemies all over and slowing down the flow and pace of missions. Used to use it on Gyre, but quickly got mostly annoyed by the skill, even if used with augment so enemies scatter less. And on Nekros when I actually play him I go "nooooo!" when I butterfinger my way to a Terrify and see enemies run off like they were in Home Alone.

Citrine status is bad in comparison to Dante. They work in two different ways. Citrine is additive. So if your weapon has 20% SC it gives 20% additional SC at baseline (100%). Dante has a multiplicative version in his status weakness along with the increased status damage.

Citrine modded to reach 100% status with a 20% status weapon means she'd end up with 120% SC on the weapon with her buff active.

Dante modded to reach 100% status with a 20% status weapon means he'd end up with 150% SC on the weapon with the debuff active.

Add +100% strength per frame and you'd get 140% SC for Citrine and 200% SC for Dante with the same weapon.