PC PC Dante Unbound: Hotfix 35.5.6

[Circle_of_Psi]

3 hours ago, AEisenhirn said:

 But it seems to me that on our (the players’) side we need to take much more ambitious measures. Will we do this? I want to believe.

What do you mean by more "ambitious measures"

[Mayhem-Ivory]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Phoenician:

This is all that is responded to? Nothing to address the fact that this thread is once again filled with OVERWHELMING community feedback regarding Dante?

The community should understand at this point that clearly DE Momaw responds to things that can be addressed immediately. Things like "what exactly is the issue", "we have that on our list" or "I just checked and cant replicate it".

Topics that concern the general direction of the game and require a lot of internal consideration can obviously not be responded to by the person who's job is managing the forum.

Case in point: they addressed the Arcan Titron and Nezha Augment without ever responding to any comments regarding them.

The DE design team and DE Momaw are (surprise) different people.

[-ShadowRadiance-]

On 2024-04-10 at 8:05 PM, [DE]Megan said:

Dark Verse:

• Made Dark Verse’s Line of Sight (LoS) checks more reliable to bring it in line with Tragedy. 
  • Following the improvements to Tragedy’s LoS last week, we’ve applied the same logic to Dark Verse to ensure enemies within LoS are properly considered to prevent cases where being only partially visible would not trigger the check. This is part of the greater LoS improvements detailed in the “Line of Sight Improvements” section below. 

Posting this here as well. 

 

Spoiler

 

As seen in the first pic. I have zero visibility on the enemy from my warframe. Which if im not mistaken, Pablo stated would be changed to from the warframe's point in space. Unless this was specifically only for Tragedy. (Which also works with this. btw)

This was not done. At least to Dark verse.

 

Dark verse entirely on your camera. You can stand behind a wall for all the game cares and you can still hit enemies perfectly. As seen in the second pic. 

LoS is a -redacted and censured- type of mechanic that should be deleted. Revert LoS off Dante. 

Cut the range and remove alot if not all of the base dmg from tragedy. 

LoS is bad. Always will be.

 

So. Go find yourself a nice long corridor. Stand behind cover so the enemy cant hit you. Use a energy pad and just spam dark verse. Cause the enemy cant hit you, but you can hit them.

 

Move around however, especially in netracells, there seem to be 'invisible blocks' most likely 'cubes' used in prop creation and placement. (Which there is A LOT of in netracells. If your camera is blocked by -some- of these. Dark verse wont hit. Im still in the middle of testing out examples but without a reliable map without enemies where i want them on demand its taking longer then i'd like to post results.

However, the point being the opposite happens in maps with overlaying props again, assuming these props are placed by invisible cubes as the base. Il need DE to confirm or deny that. The only base i have for assuming this is a friend who also works in game design and using probs for her, means storing the prop in such a cube space which can then be placed and resized as desired.

 

 

 

[Forkac]

I want to say really good job DE. You nailed it. You achieve what you wanted, that nobody will play Dante. In my lobbies there is almost no Dante. Keep up the good work and make it 0. /s

[DarthVZ]

DE can you maybe at least give sone sort of punchthrough to your LoS checks or smth? So it is not blocked by very minuscule things? 

[Misaania]

As contrary to my words in previous chains, I was angry about Dante's changes. Now following these changes, he feels much better, and easier to play. I still would prefer his LoS reverted and exchanged for a shorter range, but I still enjoy playing him, so I'm at least going to tolerate the state he's in and not make it my hill to die on.

But the hill I must continue to do battle on is the current state of crowd control, which means a lot of the current roster of warframes are in a state that means they would need an entire rework, which is not a good use of DE's time. The frames heavily effected by Overguard are as follows; Frost, Khora (strangledome), Nova, Banshee, Mag, Oberon, Vauban, Nyx, Loki, and Limbo. The other frames that have crowd control have some elements they can lean back on to ensure they thrive in the current meta. Overguard is effectively killing any form of crowd control and created a narrower roster of powers you can use for future warframes.

It's obviously never my intent to be needlessly critical, and rather that I intend to provide examples of solutions so you don't see me as only being critical, but never helpful.

Overguard is in a powerful state as it is right now, not only for enemies, but for allies as well, and it is through these two situations that I wish to provide a two pronged approach.

First, allied overguard. As it is right now, it's a far too effective as a defensive option, as it's usually tied to a simple ability only exhausted by damage. It's actually more effective than shields due to its capacity to grow to extremely high values. A solution to this factor is to limit its vulnerability to crowd control from enemies. For example; the overguard is immune to the pulling portion of a scorpion's grappling hook, but it's knockdown will deal increased damage to the overguard. And blitz, and arson eximus have their aoes do increased damage to player overguard. These values should take a percentage of the player's overguard, and will allow players to make a more conscious effort to avoid enemy aoe as opposed to it being even less effective than just taking constant damage from enemy bullets.

Second, enemy overguard. It's capacity to outright nullify crowd control is understandable due to crowd controls ability to run away with a defense, however, the goal should never be to destroy a warframe's kit to make some missions nearly impossible. It's through this I suggest a change similar to that of the player overguard I mentioned above where cc is able to do half the entire overguard's hp, or destroy the overguard. This will make it efficient to just run a crowd control frame to strip overguard, much like that of an armor stripping warframe and it will allow them to crowd control enemies with overguard after they are invulnerable from the crowd control for 2-5 seconds.

I hope this is helpful, and I wish you luck in continuing to design the game.,

[Omega-Shadowblade]

1 hour ago, -ShadowRadiance- said:

Posting this here as well. 

 

 

 

As seen in the first pic. I have zero visibility on the enemy from my warframe. Which if im not mistaken, Pablo stated would be changed to from the warframe's point in space. Unless this was specifically only for Tragedy. (Which also works with this. btw)

This was not done. At least to Dark verse.

 

Dark verse entirely on your camera. You can stand behind a wall for all the game cares and you can still hit enemies perfectly. As seen in the second pic. 

LoS is a -redacted and censured- type of mechanic that should be deleted. Revert LoS off Dante. 

Cut the range and remove alot if not all of the base dmg from tragedy. 

LoS is bad. Always will be.

 

So. Go find yourself a nice long corridor. Stand behind cover so the enemy cant hit you. Use a energy pad and just spam dark verse. Cause the enemy cant hit you, but you can hit them.

 

Move around however, especially in netracells, there seem to be 'invisible blocks' most likely 'cubes' used in prop creation and placement. (Which there is A LOT of in netracells. If your camera is blocked by -some- of these. Dark verse wont hit. Im still in the middle of testing out examples but without a reliable map without enemies where i want them on demand its taking longer then i'd like to post results.

However, the point being the opposite happens in maps with overlaying props again, assuming these props are placed by invisible cubes as the base. Il need DE to confirm or deny that. The only base i have for assuming this is a friend who also works in game design and using probs for her, means storing the prop in such a cube space which can then be placed and resized as desired.

 

 

 

In the original LoS writeup it was mentioned that enemies rendering on screen would be considered in line of sight.

[RavlinWasTaken]

On 2024-04-10 at 8:08 PM, Grimm said:

could you fix it not armor stripping acolytes and demolysts since the inline armor update multiple years ago please 
also banshees base 1/3 armour strip doesnt inline strip (strip more per cast) only works with the augment that makes it increase with power strength, ability also still does not have any wording about its base strip feature.

They formalised that it shouldn't be doing that a couple patches ago

 

On 2024-04-11 at 9:17 AM, Siic07 said:

You say that Dante was too strong so you add LOS to him

 

And they say that he is still very strong with LOS which is a lie Dante is now not put in S-Tier both on Websites and by Content Creators.

 

And why he's no longer in S-Tier because of what's the point of having a lot of damage if the damage doesn't hit almost anyone.

 

That's why now he can't even compete against Saryn, Octavia because of LOS made him turn into a completely bad warframe to play and totally boring.

 

Imagine taking your opinions from Tier Lists TT just the play game

 

On 2024-04-11 at 2:38 AM, FaraTenno said:

Throw the exact same LoS requirement on Saryn's Spores and Miasma and we'll see if your opinion stays the same.
Both abilities are intended to synergize with each other. This change would break that synergy by not allowing Miasma to hit infected enemies, AKA the whole point of the ability.
Doesn't sound very fun to set up and use anymore, does it?

I mean, yeh. Spores LoS from the progenitor spores and then miasma should only hit things that the cloud could spread to. Saryn would still be a beast you would just (god forbid) have to engage in some movement and gameplay. Sounds more fun than standing in a corner spamming 4, occasionally 3, and firing a aoe that pops spores

[MouthfulOJoules]

On 2024-04-11 at 12:07 PM, RavlinWasTaken said:

Imagine taking your opinions from Tier Lists TT just the play game

I think that if you look at it from a perspective of the players that buy frames with plat, it could be considered as non-legally-binding false advertising. They buy the frame based on the hype/videos made at release, and see that it just doesn't work like that anymore, then they later find out that he's a breeze to farm, and come away from it all feeling cheated.
I wouldn't hold it against you to say that it's their fault, but they're part of the reason the game is alive, so maybe he has a point?

 

That being said, I am not a big dante fan, LOS or not. the overguard is nice for oneshottable healthtankers, doesn't matter that much in endurance SP from my limited experience, he's slow to move around with, the only thing you might want to helminth away to avoid breaking his kit is his 1, etc etc.

 

On 2024-04-11 at 12:13 PM, RavlinWasTaken said:

I mean, yeh. Spores LoS from the progenitor spores and then miasma should only hit things that the cloud could spread to. Saryn would still be a beast you would just (god forbid) have to engage in some movement and gameplay. Sounds more fun than standing in a corner spamming 4, occasionally 3, and firing a aoe that pops spores

not really, you'd just need to place a zenistar with your 3 on and spam magus anomaly in a chokepoint. /shrug

[RavlinWasTaken]

4 minutes ago, MouthfulOJoules said:

I think that if you look at it from a perspective of the players that buy frames with plat, it could be considered as non-legally-binding false advertising. They buy the frame based on the hype/videos made at release, and see that it just doesn't work like that anymore, then they later find out that he's a breeze to farm, and come away from it all feeling cheated.
I wouldn't hold it against you to say that it's their fault, but they're part of the reason the game is alive, so maybe he has a point?

 

That being said, I am not a big dante fan, LOS or not. the overguard is nice for oneshottable healthtankers, doesn't matter that much in endurance SP from my limited experience, he's slow to move around with, the only thing you might want to helminth away to avoid breaking his kit is his 1, etc etc.

When huge content creators promote very poorly designed builds it is very difficult to say he has a point. This goes for anything, not even just video games, literally anything in life. "non legally binding false advertising" bestie TT

3 minutes ago, MouthfulOJoules said:

not really, you'd just need to place a zenistar with your 3 on and spam magus anomaly in a chokepoint. /shrug

Yeh, her current play style. A check on her miasma at least would mean that moving around would benefit the spread of spores so they scaled faster.

[ClockworkDirge]

Dante’s once again changed LoS is not hitting enemies within the 5 meter range if they are in these weird wedge shaped dead zones to the left and right of him within camera view. It‘s dog aweful trying to clear an annoying crowd you got stuck in only to have Jimmy the Butt Smacker and his buddy Tommy the Potato Hater hit you in the sides and erase your overguard because they managed to be in this weird cone of no ability effectiveness on your left and right despite being in clear view of the camera that was affected by neither of the two casts of Dark Verse or the following Tragedy.

Please, I’m begging at this point just remove LoS entirely from Dante and reduce the range of Tragedy to be more in line with other frames like Xaku. This is ridiculous at this point. 

Edited April 11 by ClockworkDirge

[StyreRai]

Thank you for the Titron buff.

[Bioskop]

Not sure if it is intended, but in Deep Archimedia Voidrigs Shield ability does not get damaged by the damage aura from those invulnerable enemies.

[Karyst]

On 2024-04-11 at 10:33 AM, -ShadowRadiance- said:

Posting this here as well. 

 

 

 

As seen in the first pic. I have zero visibility on the enemy from my warframe. Which if im not mistaken, Pablo stated would be changed to from the warframe's point in space. Unless this was specifically only for Tragedy. (Which also works with this. btw)

This was not done. At least to Dark verse.

 

Dark verse entirely on your camera. You can stand behind a wall for all the game cares and you can still hit enemies perfectly. As seen in the second pic. 

LoS is a -redacted and censured- type of mechanic that should be deleted. Revert LoS off Dante. 

Cut the range and remove alot if not all of the base dmg from tragedy. 

LoS is bad. Always will be.

 

So. Go find yourself a nice long corridor. Stand behind cover so the enemy cant hit you. Use a energy pad and just spam dark verse. Cause the enemy cant hit you, but you can hit them.

 

Move around however, especially in netracells, there seem to be 'invisible blocks' most likely 'cubes' used in prop creation and placement. (Which there is A LOT of in netracells. If your camera is blocked by -some- of these. Dark verse wont hit. Im still in the middle of testing out examples but without a reliable map without enemies where i want them on demand its taking longer then i'd like to post results.

However, the point being the opposite happens in maps with overlaying props again, assuming these props are placed by invisible cubes as the base. Il need DE to confirm or deny that. The only base i have for assuming this is a friend who also works in game design and using probs for her, means storing the prop in such a cube space which can then be placed and resized as desired.

 

 

This information is correct, the invis props that are getting nuked 24/7 to block and they do not only block dark verse. I am all down for a revert on Los but then I would also welcome Los reverse on Khora's 1

[Siic07]

1 hour ago, RavlinWasTaken said:

Imagine taking your opinions from Tier Lists TT just the play game

it's not a conclusion by tier list, it's a show to them that they only listen to content creators that even they no longer consider Dante extremely strong.

 

 

[Karyst]

I would simply propose a cooldown on Dante's 4 which then forces a strategic playstyle and not spam. 

[Razgris05]

17 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

This still screws with tanky frames that have a slight bit of shields, like Wukong, Valkyr, and Grendel. The easiest fix to this would be to make either Rage or Hunter Adrenaline set your max shields and overshields to zero, turning them into shieldless frames like Inaros and Nidus. All in all though, a nice step in the right direction!

Totally agree with the idea of making the shield and overshield to zero when overguard is active while Rage or Hunter Adrenaline is equipped.

Poor Wukong, Valkyr, Grendel and those with minimal shield frames/builds, have to look for better ways to recover energy, if not using the Zenurik's 
Wellspring or Arcane Energize.

[AEisenhirn]

4 часа назад, Circle_of_Psi сказал:

What do you mean by more "ambitious measures"

Whatever. We need more voices, supporters of the repeal of the Dante nerf, a wider public response. So that more people know about this. Spread the word to even more people. Connect even more streamers on YouTube and Twitch. And after this, let the players not only become aware, but also demand a refund. And what else? This is just what came to my mind. Because the current measures and publicity, it seems to me, are not enough. Otherwise, we, as an audience, will “swallow” all the nerfs in the future every time.

[RainThaBeast]

6 hours ago, _King_Nothing_77 said:

Definitely, I feel like reducing the range of tragedy down to say 25 meters in exchange for reverting line of sight would be fair

No it wouldn't. Full revert or forget it. They released him like that. They let us get a taste. Then they punished us for liking him and now they act like saviors saying they "fixed dante"

[Quintinw]

Yo. Stop asking for nerfs to Tragety in the form of lowering the base Range to compensate for the return of No LoS.

We shouldn't be trying to compromise on a mechanic that SHOULDN'T be implemented with Dante, much less the game as a whole.

Keep his range. Remove LoS checks.

20 minutes ago, Karyst said:

I would simply propose a cooldown on Dante's 4 which then forces a strategic playstyle and not spam. 

No.

Edited April 11 by Quintinw

[Museigen]

55 minutes ago, Quintinw said:

Yo. Stop asking for nerfs to Tragety in the form of lowering the base Range to compensate for the return of No LoS.

We shouldn't be trying to compromise on a mechanic that SHOULDN'T be implemented with Dante, much less the game as a whole.

Keep his range. Remove LoS checks.

No.

If they put a cooldown on Dante, I'm gonna stop playing... warframe altogether lol.

Edited April 11 by Museigen

[RainThaBeast]

6 hours ago, ZeroDusk said:

Thank you for the Nezha base range increase!! I think it's totally reasonable. And wow was not expecting the LoS changes to so many Warframes which is awesome!! Really love you guys and all the feedback you take into consideration 💖

Yeah except the fact they ignored the most important feedback. 

[Gamble]

17 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Tragedy: 

• Because of the return of Pageflight’s Status Damage increase, we have added a 1 billion damage cap to Tragedy, purely as a preventative measure against game errors. This is our highest damage cap in the game, a testament to how powerful Pageflight and Tragedy can be with the right setup. We will monitor feedback and performance over a longer time span before reviewing again.

aww

[MouthfulOJoules]

21 minutes ago, AEisenhirn said:

Otherwise, we, as an audience, will continue to “swallow” all the nerfs in the future every time.

FIFY, it's business as usual, come back in a month, there will be like 15 people left that are disapproving of dante, nezha, da/eda, everyone else will have given up, left the game, or gotten distracted by 1999. Which I'm surprised people are still hyped for.

 

Edited April 11 by MouthfulOJoules
Forum bugged out and multiposted.

[RyllusPurple]

can you let us finish dante's empty leverian?
can you let bonewidows throw eximus into the alchemy machine?

Edited April 11 by RyllusPurple