Room Nukes vs uh... everything else.

[voltocitygel]

5 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

Actually there is no meta here. because content isn't there for that. I can play with ancient nekros and boltor prime just like from 2013/2014 and will master almost all of the content.
Even now I still don't play with the most effective builds, weapons etc. because the sounds, gameplay and appearance of the weapons are more important to me than performance

There is and probably always will be a meta, be it in general or for a specific mission. But it is also true that you can get by and complete much of the game without worrying about it- which is what I prefer to do, and hope the game will continue to allow.
I haven’t had the time to run deep archimedia yet, but archon hunts are something I can run solo with little issue, using just gear that I find fun. I wasn’t able to before they dropped the damage attenuation- which was crazy high, to be fair. 

Given the way you choose your gear for duviri, and the many ways / game modes we are encouraged to use other gear from our inventory, it would be even better for the health of the game to make sure “off meta” gear doesn’t become unusable.
It’s an unpopular opinion, but as someone who spent 11 years trying new gear and deciding what I liked (to keep and upgrade) and what I didn’t, the encouragement to use and diversify my builds has been quite fun, and helped me make use of by massive toolbox full of all the gear I’ve ever liked. 

[_Anise_]

On 2024-04-12 at 3:58 PM, NineChameleon said:

t's why frames such as Mesa and Saryn have stayed such main stays

and as much as they are main stays, I run into a bunch of rev even got in a group with 3 of them! I still see some wukongs still even post nerf, a bunch of dante, some volts, a decent amount of octavia dispite her being lower played frame, for some reason I hardly run into mesa or saryn? I think maybe mesa isn't mobile enough to use her 4, saryn not sure why? maybe she also needs to be stationary for her spaws?

[NineChameleon]

7 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

and as much as they are main stays, I run into a bunch of rev even got in a group with 3 of them! I still see some wukongs still even post nerf, a bunch of dante, some volts, a decent amount of octavia dispite her being lower played frame, for some reason I hardly run into mesa or saryn? I think maybe mesa isn't mobile enough to use her 4, saryn not sure why? maybe she also needs to be stationary for her spaws?

I see a lot of revenant. He's probably the easiest frame to use as an entry into end game content. Especially if your damage isn't there yet since that's important for maintaining resources and staying alive on most other frames. 

I think I've seen a Wukong maybe once in the last 6 months in a public group? And that was on an archon hunt since they could just zip to the deacons with cloudwalk. 

I see a lot of Volt in his Eidolon hunt niche. Less outside of it but he does crop up more often than some other frames. 

Octavia, Mesa and Saryn I run into quite frequently and see quite often in Netracell. I'm sure it does fluctuate. I was going off of my personal experience for that statement. I do think Mesa has an augment that lets her move during her 4 tho. 

But Mesa and Saryn are almost always the frames I see recommended when people say they're struggling with x y z. I've never personally enjoyed either of them. Mesa had me for a while but she just got boring to me. 

Edited April 13 by NineChameleon

[PollexMessier]

6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

This is actually an excellent example. Megiddo is a great scene! But not because "ooh, look how strong slime is!" After all, there's like, a dozen such examples throughout. And usually the anime moves on from them in fairly short order because they're not that important.

Megiddo is a great scene because it acknowledges the monstrousness at play in war. Whilst all the secondary characters are visibly angry and experiencing sadistic glee in revenge, Rimuru (who generally is noted for his empathy and kindness and who consistently tries to avoid killing sentient beings up to this point) has his face hidden behind a mask and is silent, listening to the count of the number of lives he's ending. The whole thing is framed as a pointless tragedy caused by the greed of a handful, extending the suffering thousandfold.

But a lot of people just see "Wow! Slime is so powerful!" 

Far be it to suggest that Warframe should characterise missions like this - but the point I'm making is that room clearing is a pretty shallow form of gameplay and power fantasy. A game needs much more to be great.

That really depends on your perspective of the game. Cus "a pointless tragedy caused by the greed of a handful" Is exactly how I would characterize... pretty much the entire story of warframe. But also nearly every individual mission against anything other than the Infested or Murmur.

One stupid little interaction I had with the game that really stuck with me is when I rushed through a door and immediately fired off my plasmor just on reflex. And the wave blasted straight through a corpus crewman that was just, sitting there. I had never even noticed enemies sitting down in the game up to that point. Dude was probably just on his lunch break or something, completely unaware of any danger, and within fraction of a second a rampaging war machine barrels through the nearest door and vaporizes him. Felt kindof similar to that scene in Arcane (if you know, you know). That moment really changed my perspective on the enemies in the game. Most of them are just, doing their job, working under some tyrant they have no choice in. And we're just running around slaughtering them for reasons we haven't even really been fully given.

Every time a warframe vaporizes a room of enemies it's a horrifying tragedy caused by both the greed of the enemy leaders they're fighting against, and the Tenno themselves.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

7 hours ago, NineChameleon said:

I wish I could give you more likes. The original post was lost on me because i'd never seen the show. 

But yes. I know people enjoy aoe nuking. As I've said multiple times Im not here to hate on the playstyle or try and say its wrong. Just that its only one style. And there are other ways we could be playing that just inherently are not longer as valuable because DE themselves seem to be leaning into the AoE damage crowd. Or, since people have tried to be pedantic, the dps crowd in general. 

 

EDIT: For context because I feel a lot of people are misunderstanding why I made this thread.

I made this thread after doing a netracell run with a Dante, A nezha using the new augment, and a max range protea who was stacking massive slash grenade aoes as large the room. I was on Baruuk and, while I did find a corridor that was out of line of sight of all of them and hold that because their skills couldn't quite reach it. It gave me time to think. 

Because its not the first all aoe group i've been in. 

That time to think is why I made this. Because i was looking at the weapons I like to use. (And that I have made work on Steelpath) and realised that only really the Grimoire is aoe. And I realised that those weapons are never spoken about, never really used by others. Often condemned as "bad" even though my grimoire build shreds in steel path. So I made this thread, I wanted to ask people why they prefered AoE while also raising the question of "are things too similar now?" 

I think this issue begins and ends the exact same way as all modern great things. Content creators spoil and set the pace of every downside you're discussing, and then blast any type of correction. The majority of the playerbase view those vids and formulate their thoughts and reactions based on the content creator. This has been going on for years and it has been a struggle for DE to deal with. 

AoE is the faster means to an end as well as the safest way. It's all about getting to the reward fastest, which is why pub play is such a difficult crapshoot to deal with. The only real fix is for us to simply play our own way, find a like minded team, and have fun. 

[WindShadow970]

14 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

And the wave blasted straight through a corpus crewman that was just, sitting there. I had never even noticed enemies sitting down in the game up to that point. Dude was probably just on his lunch break or something, completely unaware of any danger, and within fraction of a second a rampaging war machine barrels through the nearest door and vaporizes him.

Grineer workers on Ceres, "First time?"

[Xzorn]

7 hours ago, Loza03 said:

This one was so frustrating, because it was supposedly DE finally addressing the longstanding issue of armoured enemies being so much tankier than everything else (which makes options that aren't aimed at armour much less useful).

And then they just kind of didn't.

Like they showed that whole 'S-curve graph' that still showed that armour scaling was immensely better than everything else, just slightly less immensely, acted like that was fixed, and then didn't adjust anything else to the new standard which still wasn't a good standard.

 

Yep. It's actually what made me quit playing for 5 years. I was an endurance runner, mostly solo towards the end. Just my thing to stay entertained.
Instead of balancing offense vs defense to get far in levels as you could it's now simplified to just don't die.

Players were obsessed with Armor scaling and really it didn't need to scale to remain cumbersome. Give an enemy 500 Armor and it's still 62% DR. Options against Armor didn't change. We gained Heat but lost Pure Physical Bleed for certain weapons. We also lost Blast, Gas, Viral + Electric, Gas + Cold also.

In the previous status system I managed to find value in every damage type except Magnetic.
Now it's generally just Corrosive, Viral, Heat, Toxic, Bleed. I find it mechanically inferior and they solved nothing.

[PR1D3]

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

In the previous status system I managed to find value in every damage type except Magnetic.
Now it's generally just Corrosive, Viral, Heat, Toxic, Bleed. I find it mechanically inferior and they solved nothing.

Status effects are kind of in a weird spot imo. I do love them and I do want to note that there have been small occurrences where DE "messed" with them, Boreal's Contempt and some of the Status Intensity stuff with Dante/Ruvox. Even though I do think a good bit are good there are certain effects I wondered if it would had been better to just relegate it to an effect that WF abilities should only inflict. I am saying that as someone who spent lots of time playing SMT games, so they do color my opinions on Debuff and Buffing. They play a vital role in tougher difficulties. Cause I like how puncture now gives you a tiny bit extra crit chance but I still don't understand the reasoning behind putting the "weakening" effect to them. I can see that effect being really good for support if you were inflicting it on groups in an aoe and it had a decent duration. But having it be a part of the weapon status effect RNG that you'll mostly be applying it in a limited fashion, not to mention the low duration of all the Status Effects you won't get much millage out of it, makes the usage of it not as optimal as it could be. The same could be said to something like Blast's lowered accuracy effect as well.

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

I don't really understand the argument that if DE changes something, they no longer respect your time. If this was the case, you inherently don't respect your time because a live service game is doomed to shut down at some point in the future. You talk as if these nerfs devalue your stock in the company or something, like you've lost an investment. From this stance, you're doomed to lose no matter what DE does.

[Roble_Viejo]

I want CC Warframes to be usable again

Now strong, not even good, just usable

[Venus-Venera]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb Ghastly-Ghoul:

I don't really understand the argument that if DE changes something, they no longer respect your time. If this was the case, you inherently don't respect your time because a live service game is doomed to shut down at some point in the future. You talk as if these nerfs devalue your stock in the company or something, like you've lost an investment. From this stance, you're doomed to lose no matter what DE does.

You have to think like the company employees. then you will understand them too and not otherwise.
They're all about maximum profit. So about maximum real life cash at the end of the month.
Other goals are secondary and even absolutely irrelevant.

[NineChameleon]

46 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

I don't really understand the argument that if DE changes something, they no longer respect your time. If this was the case, you inherently don't respect your time because a live service game is doomed to shut down at some point in the future. You talk as if these nerfs devalue your stock in the company or something, like you've lost an investment. From this stance, you're doomed to lose no matter what DE does.

To clear up confusion when I said that, I mean that is the argument that'll be made if they reduce the effectiveness of the current most time-efficient method of playing at end game.

I dont personally believe that. The fastest most time efficient method on anything other than Eidolons and Profit Taker doesn't really interest me as a way of playing. But I know people who do enjoy that play style will make that argument even if they dont wholly believe it as it strengthens their case for maintaining things as they are now. 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

1 hour ago, Roble_Viejo said:

I want CC Warframes to be usable again

Now strong, not even good, just usable

How are they not usable? None of the other arguments are strong enough to back up your statement, so maybe you can offer a good explanation and set of examples where CC frames aren't usable. 

Also, which CC frames are you referring to?

 

[Xzorn]

CC frames aren't unusable. They just aren't worth using. Similar for most.

5 years back stat smashing problems away had already started to lead the pack. Orb of Vallis with bubbles everywhere. SP Corpus bubbles everywhere. Overguard just insured there was little reason. If you're stat smashing you hardly notice Overguard. If you're a CC frame you very much notice it.

With DR stacking like Citrine + Trinity you can get millions of eHP which will serve you well into level 4k range. Shield Gating for offensive casters.
A room of enemies dies in 1-2 seconds, Why bother to control them?

[Venus-Venera]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb Xzorn:

CC frames aren't unusable. They just aren't worth using. Similar for most.

5 years back stat smashing problems away had already started to lead the pack. Orb of Vallis with bubbles everywhere. SP Corpus bubbles everywhere. Overguard just insured there was little reason. If you're stat smashing you hardly notice Overguard. If you're a CC frame you very much notice it.

With DR stacking like Citrine + Trinity you can get millions of eHP which will serve you well into level 4k range. Shield Gating for offensive casters.
A room of enemies dies in 1-2 seconds, Why bother to control them?

cc only makes sense if there were really hard content. This could theoretically be the case with the new missions in lab. Unfortunately there is too much randomness involved.
and many Warframe skill synergies are still rarely used. in SP Circuit I would always like to have at least one khora in it so that we can play longer. But here too, randomness is involved. and is not okay in my opinion.

[Xzorn]

12 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

cc only makes sense if there were really hard content. This could theoretically be the case with the new missions in lab. Unfortunately there is too much randomness involved.
and many Warframe skill synergies are still rarely used. in SP Circuit I would always like to have at least one khora in it so that we can play longer. But here too, randomness is involved. and is not okay in my opinion.

 

Unless it's like this week where a mission had 50% HP as Overguard. I ran my Night Equinox. Very good Slow, Sleep and Enemy Damage Reduction. Totally useless in that mission. Decent in the others. Just shows how destructive Overguard is to both CC and protection frames.

"Here's Nyx, Equinox and Vauban with a full Overguard mission. Oh and a middle finger". #Difficulty.

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

The funny thing is, the reason we see them as so weak is that they're Overturned, resulting in us having to quickly overkill them to the point we THINK that they're pushovers. 

Since they're abilities are so goddamn powerful with like zero counter play for most of them, we just have to One Shot Kill them otherwise the same happens to us. Making it a game of tag.

Like I'm surprised that Malice's Mag Bubble can be rolled out of, when Misery's Acolyte Shadows are Uninterruptable, Violence Silence can't be cut short except with another Silence (Or Nekros Nullifiers, fun fact), Malice's uncancellable Turbulence and his Rag Doll stun lock (That goes through Invincible abilities by the way, learned that from using Wukong's Defy) , Tempest's 'Screw You who cares if I'M rooted I'll still use my abilities!' Tidal Surge, and Angst'... Well she's there.

Since there's no real interaction to really be Had with them, you just have to DPS and kill them down before they can really do anything or else they'll just have free roam.

Yeah their design is problematic, no denying that. But even so, killing them with a few ability based slash stacks in seconds just doesnt feel right. Though I'm fairly sure that is also a fault due to damage attenuation.

[Trollocaustic]

On 2024-04-12 at 1:45 PM, PublikDomain said:

With Incarnons it feels like the "place" for these kinds of weapons is to just turn them into AoE.

With Heat damage no less for the same boring Viral+Heat+Slash meta everyone and their grandma uses.

Here's your "build diversity", bro. Say something nice about it....

[PublikDomain]

9 minutes ago, Trollocaustic said:

With Heat damage no less for the same boring Viral+Heat+Slash meta everyone and their grandma uses.

Here's your "build diversity", bro. Say something nice about it....

You get an armor strip! And you get an armor strip!

[Trollocaustic]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

You get an armor strip! And you get an armor strip!

So I've been experimenting with Cold + Impact + Puncture as an attempt to provide alternatives to the HVS combo and so far, the only weapon that comes close is my Quellor with riven. Specifically its alt fire mode. With the right setup you can hit 30 mil with headshots but thats against non-ferrite armored enemies.

Edited April 15 by Trollocaustic
Addendum

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, Trollocaustic said:

So I've been experimenting with Cold + Impact + Puncture as an attempt to provide alternatives to the HVS combo and so far, the only weapon that comes close is my Quellor with riven. Specifically its alt fire mode. With the right setup you can hit 30 mil with headshots but thats against non-ferrite armored enemies.

Quellor's great, what a wonderful gun. But I like mine with a ton of fire rate so I lose out on strict DPS, but it's ultimately just another Slash/Viral thing :( Toxin + Metamag Gorgon, though. Chef's kiss. Not really sure what the heck it is but tons of fire rate and multishot so I can just dump Toxin procs which helps along Primary Blight, plus Metamag for the unique petrification. I can turn things to stone in like a second? It's super goofy. And it works on a lot of things you wouldn't expect! The Incarnon mode is boring and stupid (just make single-target into AoE duh), but the Heat turns into Gas at least which I'm a big fan of.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Trollocaustic:

With Heat damage no less for the same boring Viral+Heat+Slash meta everyone and their grandma uses.

Here's your "build diversity", bro. Say something nice about it....

There are already weapons that don't need anything like that. Example would be Zakti Prime and Dual Ichor etc.
the damage is brutal. And with many Incarnon weapons, slash is not important because the whole enemy group quickly falls over.

And the reason for this combo with Slash is that too many waste weapons were produced and apparently no thought was given to design. The whole thing is like junk food... the main thing is some kind of trash food and keeping people "happy" somehow. And most weapons make you laugh. How are you supposed to kill anything with that? and then you run almost the entire mission without ammo.

[Genitive]

The aoe damage meta and the recent changes to overguard that basically killed crowd control are anything but healthy for the game. Sure, nuking rooms is fun, but when every new warframe is a room nuke with some support, why would I choose Nyx or Loki, when their most useful cc abilities don't work on those enemies that need cc the most?

There is a lot I'd like to see changed, which probably won't happen, ever.

[Xzorn]

10 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

And the reason for this combo with Slash is that too many waste weapons were produced and apparently no thought was given to design. The whole thing is like junk food... the main thing is some kind of trash food and keeping people "happy" somehow.

 

In the previous status /scaling system many weapons seen as waste were actually useful in different situations.

Weapons like Serro or Lacera enhanced by ability damage amps would shred armor. I had a War Riven unveiled as %Weapon Damage, %Crit Dmg, %Toxic, -%Impact. Pretty much a perfect roll before the status changes and by adding Puncture / Slash to the previous 90% Impact weapon.

There were a lot more conditionally optimal builds before. Like Viral + Electric out scaling pure Toxic unless it was a x3 base CD weapon.
Viral + Slash was out scaled by pure physical bleed long as you were hitting high enough level targets and the weapon was 70%+ Slash weight.

Level and status behavior made a notable difference in what you'd pick as a weapon and elemental combos.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Xzorn:

 

In the previous status /scaling system many weapons seen as waste were actually useful in different situations.

Weapons like Serro or Lacera enhanced by ability damage amps would shred armor. I had a War Riven unveiled as %Weapon Damage, %Crit Dmg, %Toxic, -%Impact. Pretty much a perfect roll before the status changes and by adding Puncture / Slash to the previous 90% Impact weapon.

There were a lot more conditionally optimal builds before. Like Viral + Electric out scaling pure Toxic unless it was a x3 base CD weapon.
Viral + Slash was out scaled by pure physical bleed long as you were hitting high enough level targets and the weapon was 70%+ Slash weight.

Level and status behavior made a notable difference in what you'd pick as a weapon and elemental combos.

It depends on the content. Apparently this is a general case? and it doesn't work everywhere.
As with eidolons, I prefer to use volt+sniper.
for hardcore sp corpus speedruns I prefer to use volt+dual ichor.

Or the weapon simply doesn't matter because everything falls over so quickly in SP run in public?

and even Saryn with 3 weapon buffs becomes a monster. augment for first skill, replace second skill with dmg buff. and then take a mele weapon that benefits from the 3 buffs and supplements the primary + secondary weapon with status or, like furax, with a mod buff.

and at lab weekly there was khora and angstrum to choose from. my khora has max cc with ash shuriken + augment. 1-2 shuriken and health bar turns red and angstrum incarnon kills enemy instantly. und my angstrum has no slash...
and in the end there was disruption. The weapon hardly plays a role, because Khora declares checkmate on the mechs with 2nd skill.