Some power drecreeping would be greatly welcomed

[KitMeHarder]

On 2024-04-14 at 11:51 AM, kerozen666 said:

except power fantasy isn't unlimited powercreep. it's still something you got to balance lest it becomes extremly boring, on top or an enormous problem for future devellopment.

Balance is important to a degree, I'm not denying that. But I think you and I have very different understandings of this point, and your OP also makes me think that you don't have sufficient experience to make the claims you have. (Not trying to offend, but my first post already pointed out the issues I have.)

On 2024-04-14 at 11:51 AM, kerozen666 said:

Like, look at how many frames are pointed at for reworks, and it even include some of pablo's work

How many frames that have been reworked are Pablo's original creation? Nothing is 100% concrete, but it has been inferred that Pablo made Protea, Garuda, rework Saryn, rework Nezha, etc... None of these frames/reworks have been reworked, nor is the community asking for one? This isn't something I religiously keep track of, so if you have an example and the source it's Pablo's creation, I'd appreciate it.

[KitMeHarder]

On 2024-04-14 at 9:41 AM, Lichformed said:

Gauss is meta? Sure designed well but for a reason I said meta frames are not, he's definitely better than Caliban but isn't outright invinsible or immune to mechanics straight out of the box without a good mod set to back him up like Revenant and Dante and definitely isn't bringing anything to the group on a similar level either

And if helminth is too convenient to apply, you could scrutinize sunder as a an inefficient group debuffing and stripping tool when you could just Tharros instead

There are plenty of frames that outshine others in the middle-class of frames, but meta wouldn't be just "A-S tiers" as a whole

I never said meta. You said meta.

Kit - "You're not going to convince me that Caliban is good by demonizing frames that actually have good designs. "Caliban is good, it's just other frames are too good." Everything is relative."

Kit - "We can keep going down the looong list, but why is a frame like Gauss "not designed well"?"

• Caliban sucks, and it's not just because of whatever frames you think are "meta".
• There are countless "non-meta" frames that you can compare Caliban to that would still make him suck on a relative scale.
• You think a 12-33.6m armor strip that goes through walls, has a 360° AoE, doesn't need any strength to 100% strip, and has other extremely powerful mechanics is "inefficient"? (You don't even need to be battery drain immune to use it.) Yet you're gonna try and tell me Caliban's 10-28m strip that does basically nothing else is "good"?
• Just to put it out there, Gauss is stronger than Dante as an individual frame.
  • Rev also isn't that strong, he's largely just easily immortal. And his use cases have been indirectly nerfed as of late.

On 2024-04-14 at 8:30 AM, Lichformed said:

just ignoring core balance mechanics like self-stagger he does "suck"

One of your points in an exilus mod any frame can equip? (Gauss is also innately immune as well). And I could say armor is a "core balance mechanic", yet Caliban is allow to circumvent it? Doesn't that mean he doesn't "play fair" by your own definition? 

And you don't really know what you're talking about. RPGs like WF are always completely filled with both players and enemies alike ignoring "core mechanics" in order for both to feel powerful.

Edited April 17 by KitMeHarder

[GandlingNecrolord]

Drecreeping? Like the rapper?

Everyone forgot about Dre.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

I don't think power decreeping would be too great.

In present day Warframe, you can quite clearly see the difference between a starter mod setup and an endgame mod setup.

Having a clear gap between when you start fresh and when you're pretty much done gives a clear sense of progression, and the results clearly show when even something as mastery fodder as prisma twin gremlins can shred some steel path content with relative ease, granted you're on a full endgame setup.

 

I can totally understand the fear of "well, they're going to run out of interesting new things to make", but it's not exactly a source of uninspired design. It makes balancing things around a little more difficult though, if you fine tune content to be challenging to new players it's baby content for veterans, if you do challenging content even for vets, new players deem it impossible. DE's goal is to please as much as the playerbase as they can, they couldn't really make much profit otherwise, if they can't keep you engaged to the content and you lose interest then you're unlikely going to spend anything on the game and eventually quit.

What I mean to say is that it's not that simple, you can't compact down the numbers and expect significant results.

[kerozen666]

15 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Balance is important to a degree, I'm not denying that. But I think you and I have very different understandings of this point, and your OP also makes me think that you don't have sufficient experience to make the claims you have. (Not trying to offend, but my first post already pointed out the issues I have.)

How many frames that have been reworked are Pablo's original creation? Nothing is 100% concrete, but it has been inferred that Pablo made Protea, Garuda, rework Saryn, rework Nezha, etc... None of these frames/reworks have been reworked, nor is the community asking for one? This isn't something I religiously keep track of, so if you have an example and the source it's Pablo's creation, I'd appreciate it.

so you forgot the Vauban rework? the thing that literally got the community calling him "Saint Pablo" when it came out? People have been saying vauban is trash for a while due to to CC becoming less relevant and his damage not being steel path viable. 

[Fred_Avant_2019]

il y a 22 minutes, kerozen666 a dit :

so you forgot the Vauban rework? the thing that literally got the community calling him "Saint Pablo" when it came out? People have been saying vauban is trash for a while due to to CC becoming less relevant and his damage not being steel path viable. 

Except it's not.

People building him wrong is the main source of damage loss. Now that Precision Intensify is a thing, you can armor strip faster than ever before with Bastille, Flechette Orbs and Photon Strike deal damage scaling with enemy level, so as long as you remove enemy defenses, you're good to go. Going high range on Vauban is a complete bait, as his biggest strength comes from locking down choke points, same with Duration, once enemies are already fully stripped, it's best the Bastilles transform into a short term Vortex to group up enemies that you should finish with Photon Strike, neutral range and duration is plenty good, Tesla Nervos augments when used properly will ensure that armor stripped armors that are grouped up in a vortex will all die. Not only that, but Bastille doesn't require to CC enemies to apply the strip.

 

Vauban is plenty good for everything the game throws at you, but crappy builds that do not serve his main gameplay loop are everywhere. Tether orbs are still very questionable, as they don't really manage to pull enemies into a zone (or don't seem to be doing much of anything), but other than that, it's alright. Maybe a little energy hungry, but nothing Streamline and a Zenurik energy regen can't solve. He scales.

[KitMeHarder]

7 hours ago, kerozen666 said:

so you forgot the Vauban rework? the thing that literally got the community calling him "Saint Pablo" when it came out?

IIRC that was a rework Scott headed, not Pablo. But if you have a source, I'd be happy to look at it.

I also believe it was Saryn's rework that put Pablo's name on the map IIRC. But it was really Nezha's that got the community fawning over him. (I will say I started in 2018, and both of these reworks happened in 2018. (Vauban was late 2019.))

7 hours ago, kerozen666 said:

and his damage not being steel path viable

I mean... they scale infinitely. His 2, his 3, and his 1's augment all scale with enemy level or their total health.

Edited April 17 by KitMeHarder