Quick Thinking Is A Worthless Mod

[Shanicus]

...Considering my Loki with no shields or Health but maxed flow could sit in the middle of a giant pack of level 50 infested and melee them without invsibility and not dying thanks to Quick Thinking + Rage and a Medium Team Energy Restore, I totally understand the nerf to QT to break it's synergy with Rage. Even worse when it was on something big like a Saryn, because then you'd never die to even the bulkiest of enemy packs.

With the nerf to it though, I do agree that it shouldn't stun-lock you - I imagine (or hope) that might be a bug, as otherwise there's no reason to really run QT. The energy=HP thing still works for escaping a bad situation, but not if you're locked down the entire time.

[Toom1275]

This was fix to the "fix" that I came up with: make QT work more with shields

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/139491-smart-thinking/

[Sophronius]

...Considering my Loki with no shields or Health but maxed flow could sit in the middle of a giant pack of level 50 infested and melee them without invsibility and not dying thanks to Quick Thinking + Rage and a Medium Team Energy Restore, I totally understand the nerf to QT to break it's synergy with Rage. Even worse when it was on something big like a Saryn, because then you'd never die to even the bulkiest of enemy packs.

With the nerf to it though, I do agree that it shouldn't stun-lock you - I imagine (or hope) that might be a bug, as otherwise there's no reason to really run QT. The energy=HP thing still works for escaping a bad situation, but not if you're locked down the entire time.

But sir... Now that you have taken cover, you have 2hp to work with. Should your shields go down you have no health to cover you and must rely on energy that you didn't spend. This also defeats to purpose of having the mod. Why not save 15 points for something else?

 

Efficiency of QT should be dropped from 240% to 200% to "fix" it's Godmode. Quick thinking has been completely reworked. It used to upon death convert 240% of your remaining energy back in to health. Now it uses energy as health when you run out of health. This is not an "efficiency fix" it is a total rework. The mod's description does not match what it does.

 

This was fix to the "fix" that I came up with: make QT work more with shields

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/139491-smart-thinking/

This could also work. But I still ask, why would you give us a mod that does one thing and then completely change what it does all together? Does this mean that one day in the future Serration or Split Chamber won't do the same thing it does today? Why would you want to play a game like this?

[Xandis]

I did a Nightmare defense just before this update hit. I ended up with 150 health and 50 energy. It was no GodMode, that is a fact. In fact... Mathematically speaking... ehem.. (I'm no mathematician but I will give this a shot) If you have exactly 720 health, rage converts that in to 288 energy. Which becomes 691.2 health. (240%) You will die.

 

If your energy cap is 300 it will be converted to 720 health but use all of your energy. What ensures that you die is actually the rage mod. To have GodMode would require that Rage convert 41.7% damage. This would get you 300 energy. The efficiency of QT+Rage is likely about 99%. Indeed this is too high, but still not GodMode. If you changed QT down to 200% instead of 240% then it would only give you 600 health back instead of 691.2. That's a difference of 90 health, which is rather large.

 

No matter how you try to do it you cannot exceed a 99% efficiency with R+QT. That is because the root problem is in the percentages of R+QT themselves. No matter how much health or energy you get, it will not work. (That is unless some math Wizard proves me otherwise)

 

This is why I believe you should drop the QT to 200%. It is still enough to be powerful, but not have an insane 99% efficiency.

 

Also for PvP, why not ban the mod or just make it have a conclave rating of 200?

 

These two would be the best option, I'm not much of a Pvper, but even then, I never use QT+R combo.

[MJ12]

The simplest fix for Quick Thinking would have been to boost its efficiency (yes, you heard me, boost its efficiency) and make it have a significant cooldown that leveling it up enhances. That way it's like an extra life you can use if you get careless, but it can't make up for being significantly undergeared/underskilled.

 

For example, "Quick Thinking: When killed, converts remaining energy into health at 300% efficiency. Cooldown: 300 seconds (-30 seconds/level)."

 

So your rage + QT combo would be still viable, just not persistent invulnerability, and it'd legitimately play differently from Redirection/Vitality stacking.

Edited November 28, 2013 by MJ12

[xethier]

The simplest fix for Quick Thinking would have been to boost its efficiency (yes, you heard me, boost its efficiency) and make it have a significant cooldown that leveling it up enhances. That way it's like an extra life you can use if you get careless, but it can't make up for being significantly undergeared/underskilled.

 

For example, "Quick Thinking: When killed, converts remaining energy into health at 300% efficiency. Cooldown: 300 seconds (-30 seconds/level)."

 

So your rage + QT combo would be still viable, just not persistent invulnerability, and it'd legitimately play differently from Redirection/Vitality stacking.

 

this is, by far, the best solution to the problem i've seen yet.

i would MUCH rather have this than the slow-mo-staggerfest-death-animation that is the new QT.

[Toom1275]

The simplest fix for Quick Thinking would have been to boost its efficiency (yes, you heard me, boost its efficiency) and make it have a significant cooldown that leveling it up enhances. That way it's like an extra life you can use if you get careless, but it can't make up for being significantly undergeared/underskilled.

 

For example, "Quick Thinking: When killed, converts remaining energy into health at 300% efficiency. Cooldown: 300 seconds (-30 seconds/level)."

 

So your rage + QT combo would be still viable, just not persistent invulnerability, and it'd legitimately play differently from Redirection/Vitality stacking.

Also a sound suggestion.

 

Too bad DE didn't think of either of our ideas.

[fatpig84]

Thankfully I found my own QT and Rage.

[iexzel13]

RIP QT+R build TY DE...i never got this disappointed before...

to my poor Saryn i feel bad for you...

[Sophronius]

RIP QT+R build TY DE...i never got this disappointed before...

to my poor Saryn i feel bad for you...

QT+R was the only viable way I had of keeping Valkyr alive.

 

Armor sucks on Warframes right now, so the design of Valkyr is therefore terrible. How to fix? QT+R.

 

My new build for Valkyr is... Vigor, Vitality, Fortitude, Redirection, Rage.   Constitution, Continuity, Hysteria.

 

Yes, 1 ability.

 

 

You want to know what's OP DE? How about a Trinity with just Rage? Yep, you can never die that way. Tell you what, just remove both mods from Warframe entirely, they obviously weren't meant to be.

 

I do not understand how we ended up with this... QT+R is OP and you never die! Something must be done! IDEA, Let's rework how the mod works entirely! Good? Great! Done.

 

Wat? Why not just drop 40% off of the QT? Or better yet, don't come up with such stupid ideas as 240% energy back in to health in the first place? You set yourself up for this kind of thing that way. It is best to be avoided. Instead of nerfing the mod in to oblivion to fix your own mistake, just do only what is necessary. Seriously, who's idea was it to completely change how the mod works? Why is just changing the percentage not a better idea?

 

I wouldn't be too concerned about this atm if one of two things were to happen.

 

1: Armor gets fixed.

2: There is some way to get significant health back without the obvious things. (Trinity, Nekros, etc.) Maybe some new mod that makes health drop from enemies?

Edited November 28, 2013 by Sophronius

[theammostore]

It's probably a bug. Give it time. It's thankgiving tomorrow for all of us in the US and I'm sure bits of Canada. Seriously. It's pointless now, it'll get fixed.

[Nicocat]

It's probably a bug. Give it time. It's thankgiving tomorrow for all of us in the US and I'm sure bits of Canada. Seriously. It's pointless now, it'll get fixed.

Canadian Thanksgiving was last month.

 

Also, did anyone think that maybe they nerfed it so people wouldn't be invincible in PvE?  It's not a PvP balance thing, it's a "this combo makes the game dull" balance thing.  They may have overnerfed it, but too many people are whining about PvP factoring into this.  It already didn't work fully in PvP.

[Empiren]

I can just imagine this with grineer or corpus.

 

It will just stunlock you and drain all your energy till you inevitably die.

[Nicocat]

I can just imagine this with grineer or corpus.

 

It will just stunlock you and drain all your energy till you inevitably die.

So don't use it.  Use Frost, use cover, kill them faster, pull them around with Mag, use Blast weapons to stunlock THEM instead, use the block and parry mods, use the dodge moves, do anything but thinking you can sit there facetanking like an idiot because your little invincibility cheat just got nuked.

[Sophronius]

I can just imagine this with grineer or corpus.

 

It will just stunlock you and drain all your energy till you inevitably die.

That's what happened to me on my first mission after the last update. I immediately proceeded to un-equip it.

 

Why does this mod still take up 15 slot points and has a Conclave of 70?

 

Also, I was incorrect. The description has been changed. It now says, Drains energy to stop lethal damage with 240% efficiency. If efficiency was 240% then it would be giving back energy, not using it. Obviously a quick change.

 

Because the description has been changed as well, I think this is a permanent change.

 

So now everyone is selling their Quick Thinking. For pretty cheap too.

 

 

Yes, without stagger you can go run and hide in a corner until your shields come back up. But now you have 2hp. You might as well just go into bleedout so your allies can revive you and...GASP! Have full health again. Ermahgerd... Who would've thought that going in to bleedout was more useful than Quick Thinking? Hell, I'd say that going in to bleedout instead is smarter thinking. At least you keep all your energy after being "revived" from bleedout, and you recover 100% of your health!

 

I think DE needs to nerf bleedout revives next.   :|      Indeed, we are not allowed to gain health in Warframe. This is how we will be forced to use "support" 'frames.

 

I suppose I am just rambling now. But what else to do? I logged to Warframe because of Valkyr, but then noticed that armor is broken so she is almost unplayable. So I used QT+R to compensate. Now that is broken. Warframe is officially boring now. Can't enjoy the new 'frame. Already played the living hell out of Warfame with almost every weapon. I have also played every 'frame and only enjoy a few of them. =\

 

At least...can we get an armor fix? Seriously, I don't care about QT if we get armor fixed.

[LisRestall]

proposed fix to quick thinking:

 

when you lose all of your health, you use all of your energy, with a minimum of 100 energy, to cover yourself on a shield against all damage for X seconds.

 

for each level, you get an extra second.

 

 

TADA! fixed.

This would also be nice. Since I mostly use QT+Rage only to save myself from dying in just a matter of secs not TANKING throughout a whole run.

[Empiren]

So don't use it.  Use Frost, use cover, kill them faster, pull them around with Mag, use Blast weapons to stunlock THEM instead, use the block and parry mods, use the dodge moves, do anything but thinking you can sit there facetanking like an idiot because your little invincibility cheat just got nuked.

 

 

Aka, it is just a worthless mod now.

 

Just proved the thread, thanks.

[Tenzek]

It was quick to demonstrate with PvP, but the result is exactly the same in PvE. After receiving the update I immediately went to kill Alad V. Death was swift and happened exactly like you see in the video for PvP.

 

 

Also, mods should never change due to PvP. Almost the entire community doesn't care about PvP. Mod changes should be focused around PvE experience, not PvP.

 

I am wondering what your total armor is.

 

I have been running this on a Valkyr with a rank 7 or 8 steel fiber, and it has still been very effective.

 

I get down to 2 HP, and then nearly nothing can kill me. I did start dying to high level grineer napalms in endless defense, but I also managed to tank a stalker while being shot by a room full of corpus in that Darvo alert going on today.

 

I think it may be that the new QT is balanced around an average armor value that makes it still god-like for Valk, but weak for the squishier frames.

[Sophronius]

I have not been using Steel Fiber because armor does not work properly.

 

I wish I had included it in the video, but a single shot from an Ogris will kill you instantly even with QT+R. If enough overkill damage is applied, you will die and QT will do nothing to save you.

 

 

I will retry this with a rank 9 steel fiber and see what happens.

 

 

 

 

[EDIT] Nope, still die just as fast under the same conditions as my original video. If you would like I can submit a video, otherwise if you do not feel that is necessary then you can take my word for it.

Edited November 28, 2013 by Sophronius

[Brimir]

This just seems.... utterly $&*&*#(%&. It stunlocks you to death now?

[KvotheTheArcane1]

simple +1, what was going on over in DE's heads if this isn't a bug? Did they even bother checking to see if lowering the amount of HP you get back from QT would work? Or lower the energy you get from rage?

[Sophronius]

simple +1, what was going on over in DE's heads if this isn't a bug? Did they even bother checking to see if lowering the amount of HP you get back from QT would work? Or lower the energy you get from rage?

My earlier post states that Rage was actually what broke the "Godmode" efficiency of the two mods. QT+R used to have a 99% efficiency, making it seem as if you were invincible.

 

 

I did a Nightmare defense just before this update hit. I ended up with 150 health and 50 energy. It was no GodMode, that is a fact. In fact... Mathematically speaking... ehem.. (I'm no mathematician but I will give this a shot) If you have exactly 720 health, rage converts that in to 288 energy. Which becomes 691.2 health. (240%) You will die.

 

If your energy cap is 300 it will be converted to 720 health but use all of your energy. What ensures that you die is actually the rage mod. To have GodMode would require that Rage convert 41.7% damage. This would get you 300 energy. The efficiency of QT+Rage is likely about 99%. Indeed this is too high, but still not GodMode. If you changed QT down to 200% instead of 240% then it would only give you 600 health back instead of 691.2. That's a difference of 90 health, which is rather large.

 

No matter how you try to do it you cannot exceed a 99% efficiency with R+QT. That is because the root problem is in the percentages of R+QT themselves. No matter how much health or energy you get, it will not work. (That is unless some math Wizard proves me otherwise)

[KvotheTheArcane1]

My earlier post states that Rage was actually what broke the "Godmode" efficiency of the two mods. QT+R used to have a 99% efficiency, making it seem as if you were invincible.

Yup, and that's what my post was getting at, if this isn't a bug, then clearly DE didn't even bother to try changing any numbers, because it does make a person's survivability shoot through the roof, to the point where a 300HP frame has roughly 25k effective HP before they go down (with a maxed vitality and vigor), and a 150 HP frame has roughly 53k effective HP (maxed vitality and vigor again), and that's before armor.

Edited November 28, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Shanicus]

But sir... Now that you have taken cover, you have 2hp to work with. Should your shields go down you have no health to cover you and must rely on energy that you didn't spend. This also defeats to purpose of having the mod. Why not save 15 points for something else?

 

Efficiency of QT should be dropped from 240% to 200% to "fix" it's Godmode. Quick thinking has been completely reworked. It used to upon death convert 240% of your remaining energy back in to health. Now it uses energy as health when you run out of health. This is not an "efficiency fix" it is a total rework. The mod's description does not match what it does.

I highly doubt it'll be set back to the normal way, but I do see your point of that 2 hp - maybe have QT activate earlier when you have a larger HP pool, or regenerate a bigger chunk of HP and then use your energy as a 'shield' of sorts for a period of time. Cutting it's cost from 15 to something like 8-10 would be nicer too - lord knows the 15 points was what stopped me from using QT when the QT/R combo was a thing, so using it now over something like Vigor/Redirection is not really that appealing.

[Loubbo]

Hell, I used it because most frames completely rely on red orbs for health, this was a way to not simply die of attrition with fighting Toxic Ancients and now from enemy bleed procs. I'm actually just thinking of taking a break from Warframe for a little while. The past new items have been very lackluster, events are still the same map forced to be played over and over, and more breaking of items then seems necessary and not enough fixing some other glaring issues (Armor/ Ults one shotting entire rooms). Xcom sounds like fun.