is this finally the time to get rid of crafting time?

[(MOB)drakefrost]

8 hours ago, LittleLeoniePrime said:

That's by far not enough to even reach mr5 - which you need to clear earth in it's entirety...

Meanwhile, completed MR9 without buying slots.
While I agree that 50 starter plat is too few, they do give some free slots (alerts, “Nightwave”), which  is generous enough.

As for crafting, I’m split between yes and no.
I mean, long crafting time for “end products” such as Warframe, Weapons, or even Orokin Catalyst and Orokin Reactor (last 2 are rather gated by how hard to get the blueprint though) is understandable.

What I disagree is some crafted ingredients with excessively long crafting time, while the said ingredient (err, I’m starting to talk as if it’s single, but it clear which one is it) is used in too many things, much more than simple QoL stuff.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Friendly and respectful reminder that its really rare that something in such contexts, have "no need", because unless you have the internal data associated, or such data is made completely transparent by the developer, there may be some reasons such systems are designed as such. 

Which also, to be clear, isn't myself personally endorsing or agreeing that such systems need to be a thing, just that there is a difference between someones outside subjective view concluding there is "no need", and internal data that shows a developer that there are strong incentives to employ such systems. Likewise understanding and acknowledging the reasons, also doesn't mean you have to like or agree with them, but disliking and disagreeing with a reason/need is different than believing no reason or need exists. Its a bit like Chesterton's Fence. 

Also  I was recommended and watched that Legendary Drops Warframe video on the day it was released, so my memory is a bit hazy, but IIRC even though they were critical of the Foundry timer, they also supposed/guessed the reasons why it may exist, they were also generally pretty positive overall. They are still ultimately just one person (I liked their vid, for clarity), and I don't say that to be dismissive of their views, or yours, or even my own, but perspectives will often be very different when your on the inside, with important internal data that we usually don't get access to, when their livelihoods and careers are on the line. Again, not that it invalidates fans preferences or desires to see changes, just... we aren't monoliths, or hive minds and our behaviours as a whole will often inform devs of patterns and trends that may not match what some of us, view as the "majority viewpoint". 

Also sometimes such systems whilst seeming like they are discouraging people from playing, whilst what I say next may seem odd, sometimes its more about being a filter or training people on what to expect a bit. For example, I also have a small circle of friends that all pretty much rejected and don't want to play Warframe. Why? Well its a free to play that had grind/farming. They mostly prefer games you pay an upfront price for, that are more story significant, and usually if you beat a boss once, thats it. Warframe can't really change in ways to accomodate them. Not without dramatically changing whats appealing to others or its core structure. The friends I had would rather just pay a bigger upfront price. Many of Warframes early systems are basically previews and explanations of why and how its a free to play, and why how, premium currencies can make for a lot of convenience and circumventing of certain systems, that may be a tiny bit frustrating, unless.... you put in time and energy to grind, and be patient. 

Again a lot of these systems are relative and they can always be fine tuned, refined, adjusted, but one persons foundry timer, is another persons forma issues, is another persons issue with Prime cosmetics being so expensive, is someone else's issue with RNG, is someone else's issue with Nightwave timers, like... There are a lot of systems/practices in Warframe that are designed to incentivise A. Using real money. B. Playing so much you can carve out a trading path to get currency that way. C. Engaging and spending time in the game to boost its playerbase. 

Whilst the game doesn't want to encourage potential players to leave, the game also needs to make sure potential players start to recognise and understand what the game is, and to slowly acclimatise to such systems. Like there are a lot of systems in Warframe, that people wouldn't be sad to see go, but they also sort of get why they exist, and are apathetic or only marginally bothered by. 

Like I personally wouldn't be bothered if the crafting timers went, just like I would like Forma system to be overhauled to be more user friendly, and for Eidolon cycles to be changed so people could hunt Eidolons anytime, but... Forma as it is, is one of the best and most consistent ways DE makes money and, just other reasons for both. 

Also to be clear, I think its good to ask this as a question and for it to be brought up. Its something DE should reflect on time to time, but they will also usually have data we aren't privy to, and know the habits of those that stay and those that bounce and why/how that can be, and what potential changes to make to offset those numbers in ways that work for them. 

[-MElHiOR-]

10 часов назад, SmokinDice сказал:

 

You forgot something important...

Warframe doesn`t restrict you with single warframe/waepon/sentient craft time...

IF you have enough resources AND have all the neaded blueprints, you just start ALL of them at once... And then POOF you got bunch of ready to go warframes/weapons/and everything else to play with.

And again. If you dont wanna wait, you allways can skip it via platinum. 50 plat is nothing and cast little. So don`t be a pus and don`t pretend to be a great genius... The game has way MORE serious problems than what you are complaining about.

[PollexMessier]

48 minutes ago, -MElHiOR- said:

You forgot something important...

Warframe doesn`t restrict you with single warframe/waepon/sentient craft time...

IF you have enough resources AND have all the neaded blueprints, you just start ALL of them at once... And then POOF you got bunch of ready to go warframes/weapons/and everything else to play with.

And again. If you dont wanna wait, you allways can skip it via platinum. 50 plat is nothing and cast little. So don`t be a pus and don`t pretend to be a great genius... The game has way MORE serious problems than what you are complaining about.

This is what I did pretty early in the game. And how slots quickly became my most hated predatory practice the game employs

Pretty early on you can practically just craft every single thing available as a blueprint on the market. You barely even notice the timers when you're claiming handfulls of gear a day.

And later once you actually start needing to put forma on gear, you're also beholden to the forma crafting timer, so it barely even matters how long it takes your gear to craft if it's gonna be shooting peas until you get 2-3 forma on it anyways. And they ain't removing the forma crafting time for anything that's for damn sure.

[Zakkhar]

9 hours ago, quxier said:

Yes, because creating habit that makes you check game even you don't want to play is very healthy.

If you do not want to play you do not play. I do not see how the game creates that habit to you. I have experience with games that go on 24/7 whether you are at the computer or not (Ogame, Travian) and have a hindsight how destructful they were on my actual life. When I do not want to play I simply do not play and do not even think about it. I lose nothing by not playing.

It is not the game that creates habit, it is the person. Whether it is drugs, alcohol or gaming. It is always the person. And until the person stops blaming the drugs, alcohol and games, the habit will keep going.

Edited April 21 by Zakkhar

[(MOB)drakefrost]

3 hours ago, -MElHiOR- said:

Warframe doesn`t restrict you with single warframe/waepon/sentient craft time...

This makes sense if Forma is limited to QoL items (a.k.a Dojo / Upgrades only), while current forma is used in many blueprints as well.
The longer you play, the more Formas you can accumulates. Due to this nature, this is more painful for new players than veterans

By this I don’t mean I agree to abolish waiting time for Forma completely. Just make it less painful for new players (e.g. Removing Forma from blueprint, increase daily Forma production, add a way to grind built Forma)

 

[quxier]

24 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

9 hours ago, quxier said:

Yes, because creating habit that makes you check game even you don't want to play is very healthy.

If you do not want to play you do not play. I do not see how the game creates that habit to you. I have experience with games that go on 24/7 whether you are at the computer or not (Ogame, Travian) and have a hindsight how destructful they were on my actual life. When I do not want to play I simply do not play and do not even think about it. I lose nothing by not playing.

> have experience with games that go on 24/7 whether you are at the computer or not (Ogame, Travian) and have a hindsight how destructful they were on my actual life.

>When I do not want to play I simply do not play and do not even think about it. I lose nothing by not playing.

Pick one

Seriously, if you yourself deny in next sentence then something is wrong. Do you have split personality or something? Unless you want destroy your life then you wouldn't want do "24/7 games" if you have 100% conscious responsible over your actions.

1 hour ago, Zakkhar said:

It is not the game that creates habit, it is the person. Whether it is drugs, alcohol or gaming. It is always the person. And until the person stops blaming the drugs, alcohol and games, the habit will keep going.

People create habits based on previous experiences and stimulus. Creations of habits is not always conscious decision. Habits are not bad or good. Habits just serves some purpose.

I like sweet food. Probably lots of people have food that they like but it's not the healthiest food (but not dangerous). It's ok. If you eat it in moderation it won't damage your life (at least "not too much", and you can counter it with exercise, more later). The thing is I started to eat more and more. Lack of exercise made it even worse. I got fat (not to the point "super obesity" like you could watch in yt but I got much less stamina, my heart hurt sometimes, afair). Do I like being fat? NOPE. Have I made conscious decision to be fat? NOPE. It "just happened". Nowadays I'm much more healthier. I still eat sweet food. However I started to do at least little exercise daily (I woke up. I do some situps & pushups. 3 times per week get harder routine).

Starting to exercise & eating less was conscious decision. I created some habits around that "healthier" lifestyle. However eating more & more food wasn't conscious decision. I know nowadays about stimuli. For example I know that when I have sweet food near me (where I can reach it with my hand without standing up) it's much easier to overeat. I put it out of my "sit reach". Games wants something opposite. It wants you to engage with it more on a regular basis. For example login rewards is to make you wait for the rewards. (semi)FOMO is another thing. There are probably many methods that I don't even know names for them.

 

ps. if you have finished my rambling about myself then here is *high five* for you.

 

 

[Zakkhar]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

> have experience with games that go on 24/7 whether you are at the computer or not (Ogame, Travian) and have a hindsight how destructful they were on my actual life.

>When I do not want to play I simply do not play and do not even think about it. I lose nothing by not playing.

Pick one

Seriously, if you yourself deny in next sentence then something is wrong. Do you have split personality or something? Unless you want destroy your life then you wouldn't want do "24/7 games" if you have 100% conscious responsible over your actions.

Guess you do not understand how experience works. Let me explain in simple words. I used to play those games 18 years ago. I do not play them any more. Warframe is not like that, if you log off, you lose nothing. There is nobody attacking you while you are not online. You do not have to think about the game every living hour, you can stop playing for however long you want till you fancy again and you come back to the state you left off. All in all it is always the person who chooses the game, not the game which chooses the person. 

1 hour ago, quxier said:

People create habits based on previous experiences and stimulus. Creations of habits is not always conscious decision. Habits are not bad or good. Habits just serves some purpose.

Yes, but it is all people agency. Not the games. Sure, developers of certain Pay2win mechanics are surely taking a page ouf of psychology book, but it only works in weak minded people with low life experience (or in low places in their lifes, when they are vulnerable for that kind of thing). They gotta get that experience somewhere. Creations of habits may be not concious, but the impact those habits have on the rest of the life, should.

Edited April 21 by Zakkhar

[Zakkhar]

2 hours ago, (MOB)drakefrost said:

By this I don’t mean I agree to abolish waiting time for Forma completely. Just make it less painful for new players (e.g. Removing Forma from blueprint, increase daily Forma production, add a way to grind built Forma)

You can buy 3 prebuilt forma for 35 plat or for Pathos Clamps from Duviri shop. These sure take less than 24 hours to farm.

Also, you really do not have to put forma in every new shiny weapon your favourite youtuber is promoting this week.

Edited April 21 by Zakkhar

[(MOB)drakefrost]

39 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

You can buy 3 prebuilt forma for 35 plat or for Pathos Clamps from Duviri shop. These sure take less than 24 hours to farm.

Also, you really do not have to put forma in every new shiny weapon your favourite youtuber is promoting this week.

Duviri is broken in my case (instant crash on the 1st stage).

On the 2nd, I was talking about Forma as blueprint requirement, not as Upgrade material.
If it’s left alone as upgrade material, I won’t care as upgrade material equals QoL item.

FYI, I’m only using Forma (as upgrade) on my main equipments anyway.

[quxier]

43 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

People create habits based on previous experiences and stimulus. Creations of habits is not always conscious decision. Habits are not bad or good. Habits just serves some purpose.

Yes, but it is all people agency. Not the games. Sure, developers of certain Pay2win mechanics are surely taking a page ouf of psychology book, but it only works in weak minded people with low life experience (or in low places in their lifes, when they are vulnerable for that kind of thing).

So, every decision you make, every move you make, everything you buy is your conscious decision? I guess you can be "master of your life" but majority of people aren't. You say like there is only 2 kind of people: weak and strong. There are many people in between. It's a spectrum of "mastery".

53 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

> have experience with games that go on 24/7 whether you are at the computer or not (Ogame, Travian) and have a hindsight how destructful they were on my actual life.

>When I do not want to play I simply do not play and do not even think about it. I lose nothing by not playing.

Pick one

Seriously, if you yourself deny in next sentence then something is wrong. Do you have split personality or something? Unless you want destroy your life then you wouldn't want do "24/7 games" if you have 100% conscious responsible over your actions.

Guess you do not understand how experience works. Let me explain in simple words. I used to play those games 18 years ago. I do not play them any more. Warframe is not like that, if you log off, you lose nothing. There is nobody attacking you while you are not online. You do not have to think about the game every living hour, you can stop playing for however long you want till you fancy again and you come back to the state you left off. All in all it is always the person who chooses the game, not the game which chooses the person. 

Sure, game is not like those '24/7' games you mentioned. That's good thing. However calling those timegates "healthy" (for player) is just wrong. Those timegates are not "very dangerous" but they are not made for player health in mind. It's not like player don't have to farm certain parts. Say you get frame's parts from boss. You farm it for e.g 1 hour. What does the 3 days makes more healthier? You can rest in 1 day. Why 3? Sure, you can farm other frames but you still have to wait. So what you are doing is playing one mission again and again. Is it healthy? No. 

So on and so forth. It's not very bad, especially for older player. It's still about they making money and much less about our health.

[SmokinDice]

15 hours ago, quxier said:

How about Duviri? It's far from perfect but it lets you farm frame (and its augments!) and try different gear that you don't own.

Duviri might actually be a good mention here, it definitly is a way to play the game, lets you farm some cool stuff early on, and has some decent gameplay variety.

Sadly the train already left the station for my friendgroup, so I can never find out myself if a new player might enjoy this mode during the wait time.

[SmokinDice]

8 hours ago, -MElHiOR- said:

You forgot something important...

Warframe doesn`t restrict you with single warframe/waepon/sentient craft time...

IF you have enough resources AND have all the neaded blueprints, you just start ALL of them at once... And then POOF you got bunch of ready to go warframes/weapons/and everything else to play with.

And again. If you dont wanna wait, you allways can skip it via platinum. 50 plat is nothing and cast little. So don`t be a pus and don`t pretend to be a great genius... The game has way MORE serious problems than what you are complaining about.

first of all whataboutism never solves anything, we can talk about multiple issues at once. do I agree there are more serious problems? ofcourse. but this is still sadly a huge issue, at least from what I have observed myself, and statistics say that my friends are probably not the only ones turned down by this from the game.

also, crafting multiple things really doesnt solve anything.. yes you can have multiple things beeing crafted and then enjoy them and the wait doesn't feel as long and you have multiple options.. but thats still AFTER the inital wait of 24 hours for a weapon or a wopping 3 days for a warframe (which is the biggest issue I can tell) even if you get 10 new warframes after your first three days, you still have to wait three days AFTER you started building it.. many people nowadays just dont have the patience for this kind of predatory time gating. they see this and hop out of the game. I wouldn't want to wait 3 days for no reason nowadays when I start a new game just to play with a cool new thing.
 

I have two seperate exact same examples happing at diffrent times.

I had a friend who watched me, and wanted to play and he wanted ember, we played the game, we got to farm ember, we started building his ember.. we played the next day, and he was unhappy with his warframe and wanted to play with ember, but he couldn't he still had to wait for 2 days.. so we stopped palying that day, and he never played again, because the next day he didn't wanted to start the game because he knew he couldnt play ember anyway.. and that was the moment that the game lost a player.. he moved on.

And the EXACT same thing happaned with another friend who wanted to play saryn, and it played out nearly identical.

 

ofcourse I told them you can all get them for free but it takes some time, and they enjoyed the game, but when you start playing for a reason and you get it, but you still cant have it, this is just demoralising.

Edited April 21 by SmokinDice

[-MElHiOR-]

2 часа назад, SmokinDice сказал:

 

No... It`s just childish: "I WANT THAT RIGHT NOW!" 

Players have 3 options. Shortest way. Short way. Long way.

 

Shortest: player just buys whatever he wants and plays with it.

Short: player farm needed parts and resources, start to craft and skip craft time via plats.

Long: player farm needed parts and resources, start to craft and do something else. In warframe OR in any other game OR in real live. Working or pursuing a hobby or paying attention to family.

 

All your examples are an exemple of weeding out an impatient/disinterested/not clear person in a hurry, who, if there is no timer for creating pieces of equipment, will no linger be interested in game after a couple of weeks. Warframe is F2P game and it needed something to motivate player to come back again and again. If you/your friends not interested in it then this game is not for you. Simple.

[SmokinDice]

6 hours ago, -MElHiOR- said:

No... It`s just childish: "I WANT THAT RIGHT NOW!" 

Players have 3 options. Shortest way. Short way. Long way.

 

Shortest: player just buys whatever he wants and plays with it.

Short: player farm needed parts and resources, start to craft and skip craft time via plats.

Long: player farm needed parts and resources, start to craft and do something else. In warframe OR in any other game OR in real live. Working or pursuing a hobby or paying attention to family.

 

All your examples are an exemple of weeding out an impatient/disinterested/not clear person in a hurry, who, if there is no timer for creating pieces of equipment, will no linger be interested in game after a couple of weeks. Warframe is F2P game and it needed something to motivate player to come back again and again. If you/your friends not interested in it then this game is not for you. Simple.

 

I dont think that

option 1: pay money

option 2: pay money

option 3: leave

is a healthy state for motivating new players to give your game a shot. If you honestly think that, than you are already lost in the deep swamp of predatory financial systems.

 

I dont think anyone needs to argue that warframe is one of THE fairest games when it comes to monetization. BUT there are still some old fashioned predatory systems still in game, that maybe were acceptable 10 years ago, but that is no longer the case for the new audience nowadays, that just a fact when you look at all the other games, old or new and what they have changed.
Even the most predatory games on the market literally BOMBARD new players with free stuff over and over again in their first few weeks or even month so they keep playing.
And only later reveal their true ugly face.
Some other guy mentioned Black Dessert for example, I can play that game right now and get to an incredibly high level with the absolut best gear you can have in a month or just a couple of weeks for free, where 5-6 years ago it took you months or years to get a character to the same level. They hook you first, and THEN want you to pay.

Warframe right now, even though we are a loyal fanbase, fails to capture a new audience.. and again, one of the biggest issues are the many roadblocks you get thrown into your face right at the start of your gaming experience with the game, when I start a new game and I love it, I want to play it, but when the game tells me no, go play something else now for 3 days, thats just a bad decission.
And I also dont care how much money DE actually makes by people beeing stupid enough to pay for this speed up, heck I think even I did that once or twice, but no one can tell me in their right mind that having people beeing literally paywalled on their first 3 days of playing is a good idea.
people spend money on skins, all the costumezation options, just warframe and weapon slots as I learned, I bet even forma, potatoes, just plat to trade with.. so many good and okay and fair things. But for time? no, thats just not cool, and especially so in the beginning.

There is a reason why so many games and mmos have catch up mechanics that let you bypass some old restrictions later on so you can more comfortably get to the same level as others players, and to think people would then faster lose interested in just such a huge misconseption.. let the player play the game at their own pace, not be restrcted by how long the company wants you to play your game..
Not only is there enough content that these restrictions dont make any sense anymore, but also just from a finacial point of view I can not believe that so many people buy these speed ups that this makes more money that 20% or whatever more players would have brought if they would have been playing for a month instead of 2 days.
Obviously I could just be flat out wrong about this, but thats just what I believe, and unless DE says something about it we will never know...

I am even okay with DE time gating NEW content since they dont want you to rush through their new cool thing in a day and be frustrated that they have to wait another 3 month for the next cool thing, I get that.. but time gating the first 3 days of a 10 year old game is just unheard of.

and even IF you want to keep build times, at least make some mechanism that allows new players to bypass the first couple of build times, that way they can at least hook new players into the game instead of just losing them..
For example Ordis could maybe have a new smart-ass line of dialouge.. some thing like: "hey operator! I see you are building your first new warfame, how.. EXCITING(creepy ordis voice).. normally it take some time to build a warframe, but since this is your first one, I overloaded some.. UNNECESSARY.. systems so you can try it out right now! oh and dont worry the ship will be... FIIIINE.." with a quick rumbling and flicker of light for fun. And BOOM problem solved.

[-MElHiOR-]

15 часов назад, SmokinDice сказал:

is a healthy state for motivating new players to give your game a shot. If you honestly think that, than you are already lost in the deep swamp of predatory financial systems.

If you think so....

Тогда попробуй подумать ещё раз, про болото финансовой системы, дружок пирожок. Я уже два года как не могу донатить в варфрейм и играю абсолютно бесплатно.

I repeat more than once. Craft time is nothing more than a filter. And if it scares you away, then the game is not for you. Easy. Even if DE is given the opportunity to skip craft time of two/three warframes and 4/6 weapons, this will no give the player any advantage. if you don`t have the necessary mods and arcanes any warframe, with exeption of couple of two/three that are inaccessible to farming from the very beginning, will useles garbage and the player`s wet dreams will be crushed by harsh reality.

Even no, a lot of high rank players come to Steel Path and simply cannot do anything other than die endlessly.

[Tsukinoki]

18 hours ago, SmokinDice said:

And I also dont care how much money DE actually makes by people beeing stupid enough to pay for this speed up, heck I think even I did that once or twice, but no one can tell me in their right mind that having people beeing literally paywalled on their first 3 days of playing is a good idea.
people spend money on skins, all the costumezation options, just warframe and weapon slots as I learned, I bet even forma, potatoes, just plat to trade with.. so many good and okay and fair things. But for time? no, thats just not cool, and especially so in the beginning.

Without actual knowledge about warframes financials you can't just disregard points because you don't like them.  You can't just go "I don't like this system so they shouldn't have it and I don't think it should matter how much money it makes!"
It just makes it out to be you're whinging instead of having actual points to use....

 

Further you're missing a very important piece of why crafting time is a thing and is in a 12/24/etc. pattern instead of just an hour or something like that:
Player retention.

Crafting times force the player to come back the next day, and the day after that, and the day after that, and the day after that, etc.
After all you want your new weapon?  New frame?  Forma to make your stuff better?  Come back tomorrow and continue playing then.

Do that for long enough and the game starts to become a habit.
Once the game becomes a habit you are far less likely to drop the game and far more likely to continue to sign into the game day after day after day, even if you don't have anything crafting in the foundry, simply because the game has become a habit to do that by that point.

The building of items gives you a new goal, a new point to focus and wait on, as you do other stuff in the game and end up with a massive backlog of items that are waiting to be built and claimed.
It gives you something to look forwards to and go "Oh yeah, in just a few days I'll have something completely new to try out!"

18 hours ago, SmokinDice said:

I want to play it, but when the game tells me no, go play something else now for 3 days, thats just a bad decission.

Except that's not what the game is telling you at all....
And if you're the type of player to go "I'll completely ignore everything that I can do in the game because I only see this frame and nothing else!" then you're not the type of player that would stick around in warframe anyways.

Even if you had a dozen instant craft frames, what would you do?  You would build them, have them leveled.....and then what?
I mean it doesn't seem like you want to actually play the rest of the game, you just wanted to build a few items....and nothing else.

After all if you actually look at the game there is tons of stuff to keep the players busy and doing things while the frame is building.

Having a weapon or frame crafting doesn't lock you out of the game in any way, and there are tons of things that new players need to do in order to actually make the new frame and weapon worth a damn.  After all you have mods and resources and levels and factions and open worlds....and so much more than that.

Especially since you can easily have a weapon or two in the foundry by the time you have your first frame crafting, meaning you have something to come back to tomorrow and likely the day after.  And then guess what happens after that?  Oh yeah, the new frame you were so hyper-fixated on.

 

You're making arguments like the only thing that new players have to do is build some stuff when that can't be further from the truth.
They have so much more to focus on that a crafting time isn't really that noticeable because you have blueprints to buy and farm, weapons to start farming resources for, factions to start leveling, mods to farm, open worlds to explore, missions to do, quests to complete, etc.

And if the players can't see any of that and are turned off of the game because they can't have a Rhino instantly and that's the only thing they can focus on and pay attention to, they won't stick around warframe regardless because they'll get Rhino....and then what?

[magusat999]

On 2024-04-20 at 1:20 PM, TennoPain said:

It is not game is free and we are used to it .. New players aready bypass everything and we need to deal with low MRs in Steel path enough is enough. DE have to live from something.

Who is "we"? You cannot speak for yourself? Ive been playing since 2013 - Im not part of this "we". I don't think DE needs us waiting 3 days to "survive". Its an arbitrary amount of time, and WAY too long. 24 hours MAX on anything, and no additional time to others wont hurt DE.

[ToastyGrimlock98]

Is the game no longer Free to play?

[SmokinDice]

18 hours ago, -MElHiOR- said:

If you think so....

Тогда попробуй подумать ещё раз, про болото финансовой системы, дружок пирожок. Я уже два года как не могу донатить в варфрейм и играю абсолютно бесплатно.

I repeat more than once. Craft time is nothing more than a filter. And if it scares you away, then the game is not for you. Easy. Even if DE is given the opportunity to skip craft time of two/three warframes and 4/6 weapons, this will no give the player any advantage. if you don`t have the necessary mods and arcanes any warframe, with exeption of couple of two/three that are inaccessible to farming from the very beginning, will useles garbage and the player`s wet dreams will be crushed by harsh reality.

Even no, a lot of high rank players come to Steel Path and simply cannot do anything other than die endlessly.

you are missing the point completely, who talks about any advantages? it is not about any ingame advantage, its about discovery. A new player wants to discover the game and try out many new things, this is the most exciting time for a new player, and the simple fact that they are restricted to a single frame for 3-4 days is just absurd, thats all. that is literally my only point.

people quit because playing only a single frame when there are over 50 just may become boring even if the rest of the game is amazing, since you simply WANT to try out other stuff.

 

16 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Without actual knowledge about warframes financials you can't just disregard points because you don't like them.  You can't just go "I don't like this system so they shouldn't have it and I don't think it should matter how much money it makes!"
It just makes it out to be you're whinging instead of having actual points to use....

 

Further you're missing a very important piece of why crafting time is a thing and is in a 12/24/etc. pattern instead of just an hour or something like that:
Player retention.

Crafting times force the player to come back the next day, and the day after that, and the day after that, and the day after that, etc.
After all you want your new weapon?  New frame?  Forma to make your stuff better?  Come back tomorrow and continue playing then.

Do that for long enough and the game starts to become a habit.
Once the game becomes a habit you are far less likely to drop the game and far more likely to continue to sign into the game day after day after day, even if you don't have anything crafting in the foundry, simply because the game has become a habit to do that by that point.

The building of items gives you a new goal, a new point to focus and wait on, as you do other stuff in the game and end up with a massive backlog of items that are waiting to be built and claimed.
It gives you something to look forwards to and go "Oh yeah, in just a few days I'll have something completely new to try out!"

 

Ofcourse I understand why it is here, but if you can not see how this is manipulative then I dont know what I can tell you. It really isn't a big deal, I agree completely, BUT it is a really really big deal in the first week of playing, thats all

and to your first point, as I said I dont know the numbers, and I dont claim I know, but just because I dont know I cant bring up a point that is a valid argument against predatory practice? what are we talking about here? it is obviously just a nefarious system and a relic of old times, it simply should not exists in the first place, we just tolerate it because everything else is so fair.

this is simply a very bad thing. 

 

16 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

After all if you actually look at the game there is tons of stuff to keep the players busy and doing things while the frame is building.

Having a weapon or frame crafting doesn't lock you out of the game in any way, and there are tons of things that new players need to do in order to actually make the new frame and weapon worth a damn.  After all you have mods and resources and levels and factions and open worlds....and so much more than that.

Especially since you can easily have a weapon or two in the foundry by the time you have your first frame crafting, meaning you have something to come back to tomorrow and likely the day after.  And then guess what happens after that?  Oh yeah, the new frame you were so hyper-fixated on.

You're making arguments like the only thing that new players have to do is build some stuff when that can't be further from the truth.
They have so much more to focus on that a crafting time isn't really that noticeable because you have blueprints to buy and farm, weapons to start farming resources for, factions to start leveling, mods to farm, open worlds to explore, missions to do, quests to complete, etc.

And if the players can't see any of that and are turned off of the game because they can't have a Rhino instantly and that's the only thing they can focus on and pay attention to, they won't stick around warframe regardless because they'll get Rhino....and then what?

(As to the guy above, you are completely missing the point. It has nothing to do to with all the things you need and want to do, please read what I wrote first here.)

...

and then, they get rhino, and they have 2 diffrent warframes they can play and switch up the gameplay, that is my only point. Playing the same character over and over where the main drive of the game is that there are 50+ diffrent ones a player wants to play with diffrent characters early on, a game nowadays doesn't have 3-4 days to captivate a player.

OFCOURSE the game has a lot to offer, but the frame you play during all this plays a huge role in the enjoyment of the game. And a new weapon doesn't feel as impactful as a whole new frame, especially the early weapons you just buy to level. The content is great, but the character you traverse this content with needs to be the one the person wants to play or work towards, and when they get there, and are happy and then need to wait 3 days is JUST simply disappointing, espeically if that warframe is not rhino and something that might come up a little later. you did all that work for nothing and have to wait 3 days instead of beeing able to paly your new cool thing.

 

Personally I often log in nowadays and dont play more than one mission with a single frame, I constantly switch them up, try out new things and stuff, thats why I love the game.
All I ever do nowadays is log on, buy or craft the cool new thing, play with it for an hour, go "heh cool" and go back out.. so yeah, all I do is "build new thing".

 

 

I think I made my point pretty clear now, and I guess thats all I have to say about this topic, alot of you seem to disagree, thats fine for you guys, I just hope that DE at some point will see how bad this is. Or maybe it isn't I dont know.

[magusat999]

5 hours ago, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

Is the game no longer Free to play?

Well by that logic, since its free lets EXPAND the wait time! You can optionally buy more time, or wait for one year for your item to finish cooking! Its a free game, right? So why complain? Why even have feedback? Its free, why are people whining? Or is it only the whining you agree with that gets a pass? The game might be "free to play", but it still has to be enjoyable or it will be DOA. There are lots if f2p games that are or have failed. F2P is not a pass to do some outlandish things. And it IS making money, from us, despite the f2p status. Waframe may be the most successful f2p games ever. Just because you dont put money into it, doesnt mean I dont either. F2P is an OPTION. Do you think DE is turning down purchases? Is regal aya free? Lets not excuse bad game design with this "But its f2p" excuse. Its not even logical to argue that QoL should be impacted by a game's monetary system.

Edited April 23 by magusat999

[ToastyGrimlock98]

10 hours ago, magusat999 said:

Well by that logic, since it’s free let’s EXPAND the wait time! You can optionally buy more time, or wait for one year for your item to finish cooking! It’s a free game, right? So why complain? Why even have feedback? It’s free, why are people whining? Or is it only the whining you agree with that gets a pass? The game might be "free to play", but it still has to be enjoyable or it will be DOA. There are lots if f2p games that are or have failed. F2P is not a pass to do some outlandish things. And it IS making money, from us, despite the f2p status. Waframe may be the most successful f2p games ever. Just because you dont put money into it, doesnt mean I dont either. F2P is an OPTION. Do you think DE is turning down purchases? Is regal aya free? Let’s not excuse bad game design with this "But it’s f2p" excuse. It’s not even logical to argue that QoL should be impacted by a game's monetary system.

That doesn’t make any sense. The only logical excuse to increase build times would be to make the game even more free. But you can’t make a free thing freer.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

On 2024-04-24 at 1:25 AM, SmokinDice said:

Ofcourse I understand why it is here, but if you can not see how this is manipulative then I dont know what I can tell you. It really isn't a big deal, I agree completely, BUT it is a really really big deal in the first week of playing, thats all

and to your first point, as I said I dont know the numbers, and I dont claim I know, but just because I dont know I cant bring up a point that is a valid argument against predatory practice? what are we talking about here? it is obviously just a nefarious system and a relic of old times, it simply should not exists in the first place, we just tolerate it because everything else is so fair.

this is simply a very bad thing. 

 

Hello. 

You should feel free to and you are correct in that its okay to make and bring up points and ideas about predatory practices in games and in Warframe. but validity has to do with sound basis of logic and fact. So you are dealing with reason, understanding and knowledge here. So knowledge about numbers and why and how they exist in the first place, and continue so, and how the model exists and operates compared to other models, and how people and players engage with them, all give context to positions and determine the validity (or lack of validity), around certain claims, arguments or observations. The person you are responding to, was making pretty reasonable points, but a lot of your counter points rely on subjective, relative rhetorical points that strictly don't have simple single answers. I'll explain below. 

Right now I am playing Dark Souls III (for the first time), even though I played Demon Souls and Dark Souls 1 on their original releases. My favourite weapon type are Ultra Great Swords. If you are unfamiliar with these games, well you don't start off with any Ultra Great Swords being available, and even if they were, your characters starting stats would generally be insufficient. Its going to probably take a few hours, maybe days depending how much I play, and getting through a few different areas before I get my hands on an Ultra Great Sword... is that fair? Well, depends, a lot of people already don't like Dark Souls games, for a variety of reasons. or they don't play or buy the games, or they criticise them, but its not like they really changed the specific point I brought up (I haven't played Elden Ring yet, so maybe you can start off with an UGS in that). 

For myself, its not really a matter of fairness or not, since I am accustomed to those games general design and philosophy, and am okay with them, even enjoy that sort of style. There is intended progression scale, some weapons they want you to work for them, in time, in stats, in progression. That being said, you also can't pay real money to skip the time, stats and progression right? How does that effect the element of fairness? If you could, would that then make the process unfair and being predatory, or is unlocking stuff behind time, stats and progression inherently bad? See if this was a fighting game, well most of the characters are unlocked right at the start? Why don't Dark Souls and Warframe follow suit? 

Additionally Dark Souls games usually aren't FTP either. They do have premium DLC... but you pay an upfront price for the game. Now is it predatory to make people buy a game before they can play it, and also locking behind certain gear behind progression? Or is that just pretty normal for some video games? 

See if your friends also said "I don't want to play Warframe, because I can't play Ember RIGHT NOW, and I don't want to play Dark Souls because I can't use an Ultra Great Sword RIGHT NOW" thats totally valid and fair for their personal preferences and tastes... and you can also argue its predatory and manipulative, but you do have to be careful, because there are things you are going to personally be okay with, that are also manipulative and predatory to some extent, buy you will likely overlook it, or not really mind, because thats almost literally everything, especially under capitalism, especially in the video games industry, outside indie fan made passion projects that are completely free. 

Dark Souls monetisation model, being upfront/standard, means that it doesn't need to incentivise or monetise systems like short cuts to items or play styles or bypass what some may consider "annoying or frustrating" mechanics. Warframes monetisation model, being FTP, means it has to find ways to incentivise and monetise convenience. 

Then for a lot of people, but not your friends, it really isn't an issue. I personally thought/think Excalibur isn't that fun, but I planned on playing Warframe for a few days/weeks potentially, and I could also learn about several different systems when playing as Excalibur, like bullet jumping, parkour, admire the levels, and design, soak in the atmosphere, and scenery, appreciate the sound design, search for collectibles, progress the story etc. There was a lot i could do and enjoy waiting for a few Warframes to build. Then I unlocked them, and that was super fun. I started to find ways to enjoy the game, even if some other ideas or design choices, I was a bit critical of or disliked. Plus since I never paid for the game, I could walk always walk away. Except eventually I spent so long enjoying the game, net positive over all, I eventually started to spend money on the game, feeling they had earned it, and because I know with a FTP model, some players have to support it, if you want to see it continue. 

Again, to be crystal clear, its totally fine if your friends are different, and they don't enjoy the game or have the patience or desire or will to occupy themselves within Warframe until 3 days passes. Except would they have honestly been okay grinding the same bosses until all the parts dropped for those Warframes? Since some people aren't. A few months ago, there was a person who thought that all bosses should drop all Warframe parts, so you should only have to fight them a max of 3 or 4 times. So remove all the RNG. Do you agree or disagree? What about someone whose friends doesn't want to fight bosses, since many of these bosses require progression... like its not so fast for a new player to get to Sedna or Eris... why not just offer every single Warframe from the beginning like a fighting game? Thats also a totally fair and valid stance to have, its just unrealistic and incredibly unlikely to ever happen under a FTP model. At that point DE might was well make Warframe a full price game or subscription, do you agree or disagree? See if enough players agree, the game Warframe wouldn't exist anymore, but enough people were fine with it, its carved out its own niche. 

See back to my friend group, there are some of them, that would actually probably just prefer that. Pay full price game value, get everything unlocked, all Warframes, all weapons, all cosmetics, and then start from there... Just Warframe isn't really designed to be played that way. It started 10 years ago, and 10 years ago, it wouldn't have been able to justify such a price tag. These days it potentially could, but only because of years of refinement and investment and pumping out newer content, remaking old content and so on... 

Again, I totally empathise with your frustration as far as having friends bounce off the game, and games do generally have a lot of predatory and manipulative practices. Warframe is a FTP though, so in some ways its more manipulative and predatory than say... older school games from 20 years ago, but even those games, you usually had people research and learn about whether they would enjoy and like a game before buying it. With FTP games, players should be even more careful, considerate and educated, and in that sense, and with some knowledge, many consider Warframe one of the best for that sort of thing. Which goes back to Legendary Drops general take on Warframe. Plus they are only at 20 hours in, they haven't seen how lavish and grand the games plot and tile sets and systems and features are. All of which is possible to experience free (not that I personally would recommend a player go complete FTP with the game, unless they wanted to deal with other players and trading, which eh...)

With my own friend group, and changes to Warframe so they would play it? Eh, game is pretty successful (objectively I mean), it doesn't really have. anew player problem, as far as I understand it, they have more of a "retention problem,"because a free to play model means low barrier to entry, and new players are pretty easy to entice, but getting them to necessarily stay, and in such a way where they want to develop habits in keeping around, thats tougher, and so you could potentially argue timers based on that merit, but I also already covered that in my first post, about why and how the FTP model also wants to encourage certain understandings and lessons to the player. Timers is probably a tried and tested method that helps support the game. Since again, they don't get upfront money. 

So whist it might be a bit personally frustrating that some of my friends aren't interested, there are literally thousands of other games out there, and there are like many games I personally don't care for as well. I don't care about Fortnite, Diablo 4, Overwatch 2, but I don't necessarily think those games should change to appease my preferences and tastes. Not that there is anything wrong with me criticising them either, to be clear, just that it might not be realistic or potentially reasonable to expect that. 

Frustration with game systems and generalised issues with predatory and manipulative practices aren't the same as good valid arguments and understanding around why Devs implement systems designed for retention, like timers in FTP modelled games. Its fine to criticise it, and be against it, but then you are also criticising and arguing against larger structures, like FTP models in general. Potentially broader, like advertising by definition, is trying to manipulate you. Just in ways, most people find relatively acceptable, and ideally there are laws and regulations to keep them in check as well. Personally I like to encourage everyone to be super critical of everything, advertising, FTP models, Capitalism, Warframe, foundry timers, Regal Aya, lol, but good criticism also requires good understanding, and good understanding is demonstrable. 

(I hope none of this comes off as aggressive or argumentative. I just thought the person you were replying to, was making good reasonable points, and I think you make some good points as well, but a lot of your points seem more to do with personal frustrations and personal experiences you had with the game and your friends, and less to do with the nature of why and how FTP models often utilise such designs, and why they still persist and exist despite your claims of them being "outdated". Since to my own understanding, games have only become worse on the whole as far as such monetisation tactics, and as far as FTP models specifically, Warframe is one of the best, relatively speaking. Like a few months ago, Mortal Kombat started selling Fatalities as DLC. Back when Mortal Kombat started, you didn't have any of that. Just paid once, and got everything, including secret characters/unlockables (well I can't actually remember the OG game that well if it had secret things, like characters you could play as, or whether they were just brief cameos/opponents but I am sure the point is made). 

Cheers. 

[SmokinDice]

11 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Right now I am playing Dark Souls III (for the first time), even though I played Demon Souls and Dark Souls 1 on their original releases. My favourite weapon type are Ultra Great Swords. If you are unfamiliar with these games, well you don't start off with any Ultra Great Swords being available, and even if they were, your characters starting stats would generally be insufficient. Its going to probably take a few hours, maybe days depending how much I play, and getting through a few different areas before I get my hands on an Ultra Great Sword... is that fair? Well, depends, a lot of people already don't like Dark Souls games, for a variety of reasons. or they don't play or buy the games, or they criticise them, but its not like they really changed the specific point I brought up (I haven't played Elden Ring yet, so maybe you can start off with an UGS in that). 

For myself, its not really a matter of fairness or not, since I am accustomed to those games general design and philosophy, and am okay with them, even enjoy that sort of style. There is intended progression scale, some weapons they want you to work for them, in time, in stats, in progression. That being said, you also can't pay real money to skip the time, stats and progression right? How does that effect the element of fairness? If you could, would that then make the process unfair and being predatory, or is unlocking stuff behind time, stats and progression inherently bad? See if this was a fighting game, well most of the characters are unlocked right at the start? Why don't Dark Souls and Warframe follow suit? 

Additionally Dark Souls games usually aren't FTP either. They do have premium DLC... but you pay an upfront price for the game. Now is it predatory to make people buy a game before they can play it, and also locking behind certain gear behind progression? Or is that just pretty normal for some video games? 

See if your friends also said "I don't want to play Warframe, because I can't play Ember RIGHT NOW, and I don't want to play Dark Souls because I can't use an Ultra Great Sword RIGHT NOW" thats totally valid and fair for their personal preferences and tastes... and you can also argue its predatory and manipulative, but you do have to be careful, because there are things you are going to personally be okay with, that are also manipulative and predatory to some extent, buy you will likely overlook it, or not really mind, because thats almost literally everything, especially under capitalism, especially in the video games industry, outside indie fan made passion projects that are completely free. 

Dark Souls monetisation model, being upfront/standard, means that it doesn't need to incentivise or monetise systems like short cuts to items or play styles or bypass what some may consider "annoying or frustrating" mechanics. Warframes monetisation model, being FTP, means it has to find ways to incentivise and monetise convenience. 

 

(no aggression was taken, it is just very very upsetting when people set up strawman arguments, and argue against points you dont even make)

So there are 2 options here,

- either, I am beeing trolled very hard by you.

- or I am trapped in a parallel dimension where people literally can not understand what I am saying.

Im getting the feeling that I am stupid. like literally so dumb that I cant write english well enough so people can comprehend what I am writing down.

Are you really telling me you dont understand my point? am I that bad at english?

 

Literally everything you wrote here has NOTHING to do with what I was talking about..

"I can't play Ember RIGHT NOW, and I don't want to play Dark Souls because I can't use an Ultra Great Sword RIGHT NOW" when did I ever say that I or my friend want to START the game of warframe with ember? never once.

but let me try one desperate final last time, using your example... and then one last final time try to insert the same logic into warframe.

When you play darksouls, and you play the game and you finally after some time get to your Ultra great sword, AND THEN the game tells you, ah, sorry bro, you have to wait for 3 days before you can use it. THAT is the situation in warframe. 

It doesn't matter what game, it doesn't matter which monetization, nothing of what you have said in anyway affects anything of what my point is. and I dont want to hold a debate of what monetization system is fair or isn't.
You are also Implying SO many things into what I am saying to fit a narrative no one is talking about, not me at least..
"Its fine to criticise it, and be against it, but then you are also criticising and arguing against larger structures, like FTP models in general."
Just simply NO, just because you say I am also criticising whaterever you say doesn't make it true in any way, I was criticising exactly the thing I was talking about, nothing more, nothing less.
It is simply a bad feeling, when you finally get your ultra greatsword and you are happy because you finally achieved a goal you set yourself and then the game just tells you wait 3 days. And now go ahead and tell a player in darksouls that he can just play on and finish content first and just use it in 3 days, why would he want to use the weapon he got right now, he can just keep playing and eventually use the greatsword in 3 days, it'll be alright.

So how is it somehow in any way necessary that when you play darksoulsWarframe, and you play the game and you finally after some time get to your Ultra greatsword Ember, AND THEN the game tells you, ah, sorry bro, you have to wait for 3 days before you can use it.
You did the work, you got there, you even farmed the materials, the gameplay loop of aquiring the cool thing is finished, yet you cannot use it. And my only entire point now is, that THIS simply is disheartening for a new player, and many new players quit because of that exact reason. Now you can argue what "many" is, but in my case alone it is 8 potential players lost.

I'm done, I am never opening this thread again..

Edited April 25 by SmokinDice

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

2 hours ago, SmokinDice said:

(no aggression was taken, it is just very very upsetting when people set up strawman arguments, and argue against points you dont even make) So there are 2 options here, - either, I am beeing trolled very hard by you.- or I am trapped in a parallel dimension where people literally can not understand what I am saying.

Im getting the feeling that I am stupid. like literally so dumb that I cant write english well enough so people can comprehend what I am writing down. Are you really telling me you dont understand my point? am I that bad at english?

 

Thats good to hear about the aggression. I don't think you should be upset though, and I apologise that you feel that way. The reason I don't think you should be upset, is because you are overlooking several options. Also to clarify, I am not trolling you, which, you know, I realise is something a troll would probably say as well, but I don't think you are a troll either, because I value good faith with my interactions with others. 

So by your point here, that would only leave one other option, the one about the parallel dimension, but like i said before, there are more options, like knowledgable, intelligent, articulate, people have small understandings all the time. People aren't mind readers, and ideas and concepts can have a lot of nuance and depth that can lead to how we interact with them being tied with assumptions, which can lead to conflict, competition with others, when we set points and arguments against each other. 

Like I know that though various broad and specific means, I am decently intelligent, and knowledgable. That being said I still encounter misunderstandings frequently, but misunderstandings do not reflect an individuals brightness, comprehension, or anything of the like. So you shouldn't question or entertain that in regards to yourself. 

I am also not telling you I don't understand your point. Its possible that I am misunderstanding, sure, that is something thats always possible. That being said, do you think its also possible, that myself and others are actually grasping your point, just we aren't necessarily communicating to you that we do, and it might be possible that you aren't quite understanding our points? Not for any lack of, but I'll get to that below. 

 

2 hours ago, SmokinDice said:

Literally everything you wrote here has NOTHING to do with what I was talking about..

"I can't play Ember RIGHT NOW, and I don't want to play Dark Souls because I can't use an Ultra Great Sword RIGHT NOW" when did I ever say that I or my friend want to START the game of warframe with ember? never once.

but let me try one desperate final last time, using your example... and then one last final time try to insert the same logic into warframe.

When you play darksouls, and you play the game and you finally after some time get to your Ultra great sword, AND THEN the game tells you, ah, sorry bro, you have to wait for 3 days before you can use it. THAT is the situation in warframe. 

 

Based on you saying that you were upset earlier, I can understand why you would start to use hyperbole, and use more exaggerated terms, and I know the fun of using literally, not so literally, but I want to talk to you quickly about how people can interact with each other and understand each other. A person (lets call them Person A) can understand another person, but when making their own points in relation to the other (lets call them Person B), Person A may not try to address Person B's examples or points in an exact 1:1 way, especially if a persons point overlap or run into similar issues, ideas, concepts that can be applied to other situations. 

Do we have common ground on that so far? 

Yes, there may be variables in Person B's points and arguments that lean on very specific issues, that aren't relevant in scenarios or situations that Person A starts to discuss, but you really genuinely believe that you can't at least see where other peoples points overlap and address what you are trying to say? Even if you may ultimately disagree why its not as pressing or relevant to your more specific issue? 

For example, you could say "I get why you might talk about another example, but that example, doesn't actually do or touch on this, my original point the same way. I will reemphasis it" as opposed to doing it the way you did. Do you understand what I mean and generally agree?

The reason why I think you might also not be understanding my points accurately is.. because you seem to imply that I was trying to make my example similar to your example... Except I wasn't. My example with Dark Souls was expressly meant to be different to your example, in a lot of ways. For a very specific reason. There are some similarities, that were also intentional, but not to imply the examples were the same, but to touch on the ideas of delayed player activity/reward, and potential player frustration or negativity involved with such systems. Then the intended deviation was to compare standard game models with upfront pricing and FTP models. 

I genuinely believe I understand your point, and agree that Dark Souls doesn't wait until you get the weapon and then tell you to wait three days, but my point, whilst acknowledging your point, is that one can argue or acknowledge that the timer is largely superficial, in the sense, that people who start both games, will have to wait before necessarily acquiring an item, that they perceive will bring them enjoyment in some broad way, or not necessarily even that, but just that there is some sort of negative sense or feeling towards being delayed. Like if you want to more specifically argue that its strictly the UI Foundry Timer popping up thats more the specific gripe, sure... Just that the "sorry bro you have to wait 3 days" is already implicit in a lot of games already apart from the actual in game execution and style and manner of presentation. Just that in a lot of games where you pay money upfront in, where they already have your money, they presentation will often be different. That and in a lot of game, like FTP or games that want a lot of micro transactions, the other alternative, is to not have any timers at all, and just have items locked behind a payment, or bundle. Or some combination, a bit like Warframe. 

Based on what I described above, do you still think I am not understanding your points? Totally feel free to say I am too, my ego and my points aren't conflated. I really do sincerely want to know if you think I am not understanding your point, and do actually want to know it, if thats the case, if you are willing to express it. 

 

3 hours ago, SmokinDice said:

It doesn't matter what game, it doesn't matter which monetization, nothing of what you have said in anyway affects anything of what my point is. and I dont want to hold a debate of what monetization system is fair or isn't.

 

See I disagree here, because nothing takes place in a vacuum. It may not be your personal direct point or issue, but you implicitly ask a few different questions with your points like "why is this a thing, why are some okay with it, how can the game be successful by doing stuff like this" and even if you may not personally care about the answers or the relevancy, thats what a lot of people including myself will address because it is related and relevant, to such implicit questions/criticisms. 

 

3 hours ago, SmokinDice said:

You are also Implying SO many things into what I am saying to fit a narrative no one is talking about, not me at least..
"Its fine to criticise it, and be against it, but then you are also criticising and arguing against larger structures, like FTP models in general."
Just simply NO, just because you say I am also criticising whaterever you say doesn't make it true in any way, I was criticising exactly the thing I was talking about, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Sure, because of what I pointed at above. Its okay that you aren't talking about it, but its still relevant and implicit with some of your points. and the topic overall. You also aren't the first person to have such issues, specific or broad, and so the ways people address and tackle such issues carries with it a lot of understanding and nuance as far as clashes of ideas and perspectives.

Its also totally fine if you do not personally care for them too, just you shouldn't believe that just because you don't personally care for more of the nuance or context that they are non factors or relevant. Again to you subjectively, sure, but not in a broader, generalised way. 

Like do you see my claiming simply yes? I am not trying to force or impose points onto you and insisting that you conform to my personal beliefs. So when you say "simply no", you do seem a little upset and frustrated, because this is usually the sort of point frustrated people use, where they argue from insistence. As in "I am frustrated, I will just tell the other person No!". Which to be clear, isn't an attempt to invalidate such frustrations, i am just going off your opening paragraph. There are also other reasons that type of rhetoric can be employed outside of frustration too, of course. 

 

3 hours ago, SmokinDice said:

It is simply a bad feeling, when you finally get your ultra greatsword and you are happy because you finally achieved a goal you set yourself and then the game just tells you wait 3 days. And now go ahead and tell a player in darksouls that he can just play on and finish content first and just use it in 3 days, why would he want to use the weapon he got right now, he can just keep playing and eventually use the greatsword in 3 days, it'll be alright.

 

I mean my example was that since Dark Souls is a game that gets most of its money from you upfront before the start screen, it doesn't need to have a foundry timer. The delay system it implements is a bit similar outside of that. You need progression, you need time investment, you sometimes even need some crafting materials. It also functions similarly in that the games want you to suffer a little, and experience struggles, and they want you to lean on patience, persistence, observation, determination, and skill, to overcome such challenges and struggles. to be able to get new weapons, (among other reasons), and then often when you get such weapons, wanting more, or being satisfied with one of them. So the player gets motivated more and more by progression, so that they might reach a point of satisfaction. Whether that be 50 hours in and stopping at a wall, or beating the game. Then hopefully having enough of a good experience to feel good about the purchase and also maybe more likely to buy future games from that studio. 

Warframe is similar and different. Similar as far as wanting you to invest some time into the game, and having lines of progression. Experiencing struggles, but getting by them with patience, skill. Though in Warframes case, there are some differences here, like there is more emphasis on collection. that being said, one very big difference is the monetisation strategy. Since they haven't gotten any money at all from you upfront, they do need to lean on ways to try and incentivise spending. Also in ways that can be bypassed/ignored by those remaining FTP. Hence. 

Also, for some, it is a bad feeling that they do not start the game with a weapon that determines their entire play style, for lots of different people, there are a lot of bad feelings, around different game systems, monetisation strategies, game progression paths, game systems, gameplay mechanics. Bad feelings existing, requires context though. You can't just lean on the abstract idea of bad feelings, over the issues you personally feel strongly about, without understanding and considering the rest of the context. So again, its like you interpreted my example, as just randomly being brought up to yours because you think, that I think they are similar? When it was actually just to use to talk and describe differences in monetisation models. Like your own example, works better for my point, in that you can go and tell Warframe players that if they want a Warframe, they are going to have to wait 3 days, and most will shrug. Then you can emphasis new players because "many Warframe players get used to it", but many new players will also shrug when they realise its a FTP game. For those who bounce or are deterred, thats also fine as well, because enough new players come aboard and enough established players return, to support the current larger system. Yes it can also be improved potentially, but it needs to, in ways that make sense for a FTP, especially using as much objective internal data as possible. Plenty of people bounce and are deterred by many games as a default. Game devs aren't necessarily trying to literally appeal to everyone, just enough whose tastes may align with the strategy they roll out. 

 

3 hours ago, SmokinDice said:

And my only entire point now is, that THIS simply is disheartening for a new player,

 

I am aware of your point. I have taken it into consideration with many of my points. You have to understand that right and how people communication. This has been addressed not just by myself but others. Many things, in many games, will be disheartening for players in general and new players. Then we talked about why they can exist in games, and i talked about other scenarios people can feel disheartened, including some of my own friends around Warframe too. 

Some of your responses to this, was to use a larger abstract idea of "that doesn't excuse it:", "don't you see that this is manipulative", "its simply bad" which sure, and explaining systems isn't the same as endorsing or excusing systems, but people find putting things into context important. 

So when you also claim that your point isn't being understood, and that people like myself are talking about other things that are irrelevant, well... Its addressing your points and statements like these. Its like you are doing special pleading for your own very subjective and personal feelings and experiences and whilst at times, acknowledging more objective criteria and nuance, still ultimately dismissing everything else that doesn't just outright agree with you. 

 

4 hours ago, SmokinDice said:

I'm done, I am never opening this thread again..

 

I mean, if you say so, but often thats just what really frustrated people do in slightly tense online forum conversations. Its a bit like the equivalent of slamming a door shut, to send a message. I am just a random anonymous online random person, so of course you may not take me at my word, but either way, I sincerely don't want you to feel upset, frustrated or anything negative. I do sincerely apologise if this conversation has brought you any distress. 

Our ideas and points and arguments aren't tied to our character or person. I don't actually think we disagree about much. Like I think foundry timers are inconvenient, rife for frustration, etc I am just generally more apathetic to why they exist and how much of a deterrence people should find them given the larger context. Which is also inclusive of people being critical of them, and walking away from the game too. Just thats also counter balanced by why the game is likely set up that way too. Warframe is an objectively successful game, with people whose lives involved understanding such monetisation systems in a way to not only sustain the game, but grow it. 

So I think we agree on a lot, but the stuff we do disagree over, that shouldn't be taken personally or result in frustration or being upset. I also sympathise with being misunderstood, but that doesn't need to be personal either. Misunderstandings can happen all the time, even with no ill intent or without being a negative reflection on any of the participants. 

If you happen to see this, I wish you all the best for the future! Cheers.