players complaning about randomized loadouts for deep archamidea

[Drachnyn]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Kainosh:

What if everyone has their own "3 frames" ?  You get Hydroid, Khora, Nidus.  I get Mag, Loki, Chroma.    Same with guns.

Yea that's how it works right now?

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Kainosh:

Coz "carrying" is real tbh.  Its possible now to unlock all rewards while getting "carried" by someone who will not.   Kinda unfair imo.

If you like getting carried then get carried. If you dont like getting carried then contribute. Warframe players need understand that there can be a possible middleground between "you solo'd the mission and carried 3 people" and "you got hard carried".

[kadlis12]

1 hour ago, Stormandreas said:

If you think no difficulty feature should allow personalised gear/equipment/loadouts, and everything hard should just be compeltely randomized, then you're very out of touch with how almost every other game handles difficulty.

Rougelikes are what DE are trying to go for with Circuit and Deep archimedian. Warframe is not a Rougelike.

If you've played any Soulslike, you aren't just given random equipment and told "no, you can't do this boss with a Claymore like you want to" or if you go play FFVII, the game doesn't go "no, you can't use this materia at all for this section of the game".

Difficulty is not tied to just randomizing what people use. Even Rougelikes have a level of personal choice when starting off, usually with a character selection. The randomization comes in item drops, which often times, those games have ways to swap or sacrifice those items in some way in favour of others.

Deep Archimedian does not have this. It is just "use this randomized stuff or lose out. Too bad".

Was that really meant to be a reaction to me? I have no idea what are you trying to explain to me.

...the previous discussion was: If random, then the same draft for everyone and no opt-outs. - But that would be even worse! - Yes, but fair.

So, what did you want to say by your reaction? I somehow fail to see any connection.

Edited April 22 by kadlis12

[Rathalio]

I mean a lot of people are frustrated to see they can't do it and claim all the rewards. Although at the same time they are not missing any special loot, they can do 2 more netracells instead, same rewards. Of course, it's a bit better to do deep archimedea, but the game mode needs to have a reason to exist too. It's still the same rewards though, and I think this reality is really overlooked in the complaints unfortunately.

[Mr.Holyroller]

2 hours ago, C11H22O1 said:

I don't mind it but it's definitely not hard at all just makes things more tedious, putting restrictions on us seems to be the way they handle difficulty instead of creating some balance

So... You're saying it's hard

[MutoManiac]

1 hour ago, Stormandreas said:

The rewards in Deep archi are both more numerous for less runs, and higher quality.

5 Rewards, 2 of which are exactly the same as the 2 netracell runs you'd do that you sacrifice to do it, and then 2 more with higher chances for Tauforged shards, and 1 more with no melee adaptor, and only the Legendary arcanes or a Tauforged shard.

Deep archi rewards are far better, especially when you consider there's 3 more Netracells you can do after that for a total of 8 rewards instead of 5

I guess I just had bad luck then with rewards and I swear it felt longer than three Netracell runs. Will do it next week and actually pay more attention to the time and rewards then.

[Kainosh]

25 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Yea that's how it works right now?

Oh, then its fine.   I thought its same 3 for everyone....coz in those 3 runs I did I saw people using frames i had in my selection. 

Makes sense now....it would be 4 frames to choose from otherwise....

[-ShadowRadiance-]

2 hours ago, spider_enigma said:

Its meant to be hard by forcing you out of your comfort zone,

Well. Its failing to do that HARD.

We got one flex. Revenant exists. Or if we get a good frame matching randomizer debuffs we can flex a weapon. 

So far. Eda has failed to be a challange every week. I just flex one of two slots. If i get a decent frame. Il flex a weapon. If i dont. I flex a frame.

Eda has failed it mark.

[SneakyErvin]

48 minutes ago, Rathalio said:

I mean a lot of people are frustrated to see they can't do it and claim all the rewards. Although at the same time they are not missing any special loot, they can do 2 more netracells instead, same rewards. Of course, it's a bit better to do deep archimedea, but the game mode needs to have a reason to exist too. It's still the same rewards though, and I think this reality is really overlooked in the complaints unfortunately.

But it isnt the same rewards.

5x Netracell = 5 rewards.

1x EDA = 5 rewards

3x Netracell = 3 rewards

3+5 = 8

3+5 =/= 5

In 3 weeks that woul be 24 vs 15 rewards, 6 weeks 48vs30, 12 weeks 96vs60 and in a year 416vs260 rewards. And that is just rewards in general with us ignoring the increased rate that EDA provides tau and arcanes.

[Rathalio]

52 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But it isnt the same rewards.

5x Netracell = 5 rewards.

1x EDA = 5 rewards

3x Netracell = 3 rewards

3+5 = 8

3+5 =/= 5

In 3 weeks that woul be 24 vs 15 rewards, 6 weeks 48vs30, 12 weeks 96vs60 and in a year 416vs260 rewards. And that is just rewards in general with us ignoring the increased rate that EDA provides tau and arcanes.

It's not the same quantities but still the same rewards. DA isn't gatekeeping anything. DA also needs a reason to exist. It's normal that it's more efficient to do the more difficult mission. Just like when you built a good and efficient farming warframe & weapons and get your stuff overall faster than the average player. Being able to complete archimedea is more efficient and faster when you are ready to do it. Yet you can still access to everything from this game mode without even playing it. (Apart from a one time funky ship decoration, yes.)

[Karyst]

3 hours ago, C11H22O1 said:

I don't mind it but it's definitely not hard at all just makes things more tedious, putting restrictions on us seems to be the way they handle difficulty instead of creating some balance

It's hard on those who thought they'd get away with shameless leeching forever. Time to be humble

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I like the mode so far. Done all the weeks, had some different experiences, all mostly positive except for one attempt where people progressively quit, leading to multiple host migrations, in the first round. Sort of understandable since team wasn't working well together, someone died far away, I wanted to revive them via Angel, succeeded, but one of the others alive died, and was host and they left annoyed at the other player... Anyway, regardless I think the mode is great. You can get lucky with your RNG, or alternatively may have to lean a little more on team work and team synergy. 

So far my "hardest load out" had Mag, and Paris as my only decent weapon. Hard in the sense while I use Mag a lot, my Mag build is really squishy. Also the weeks conditions weren't great for my load out either, and I consider the Paris Incarnon really strong, its less effective with the set up I was using and the KPM needed against the enemies and how I had to use it in regards to the rest of my loadout. It was also the where above happened with the people leaving. The next attempt went way smoother, since I wasn't trying to carry a disorganised team who were spread out. This time our team work was much tighter and people were even communicating in chat, and we had to coordinate a little, and use team synergy and rely on each other, which isn't something I usually have to do in Warframe, but I had fun and enjoyed the three quests. 

That all being said, I really do think its fine if people complain, criticise and expression dislike or frustration with the mode. I can't see the mode changing too dramatically, but I am not against adjustments either, and just expressing ones thoughts, preferences, likes and dislikes is just really basic and important. You never really want to deny peoples options to do so, otherwise that can be used against you as well. Its fine to have more nuanced and interesting takes, views, opinions and preferences than just liking and agreeing with everything or being critical and against everything. 

Personally I think the randomised load outs is an important and necessary aspect in the mode, because the way Warframe is set up... Like subjective some could find it artificial, boring, forced, tedious, sure, but the way Warframe is set up with so many tools, is that challenge can often by bypassed and trivialises just by a player being willing to flex and select tools that are strong against the scenario, situation, quest etc. Which also means, those that do not want to flex, either because they can't or don't want to, may struggle in ways they may dislike. Thing is, it would be hard for DE to so specifically tailor make challenge/difficulty for a Protea player who likes using the Cedo, compared to a Xaku player who likes using the Boar Incarnon, compared to a Saryn player who likes using the Hate to a Vauban player who likes using the Daikyu. A lot of their strengths and weaknesses are so different that it makes that sort of balancing tricky, and thats before we even include Operator tools, Arcanes, gear wheel, so on. Even for some players, the ability to forgo one reward and getting to choose to exclude one variable, can make EDA, pretty comfortable, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but sometimes it can be a nice experience when a player experiences good cohesive team work, and the feelings it can result in. 

Regardless of all that though, good to express when you enjoy and like something, but don't feel too distressed or annoyed if people have different takes, preferences and so on. Its fine. You can even have friendly and chill conversations with people even if you disagree about stuff too. 

[ominumi]

Not sure why people think choose a specific loadout is difficult.

[Stormandreas]

5 hours ago, MutoManiac said:

I guess I just had bad luck then with rewards and I swear it felt longer than three Netracell runs. Will do it next week and actually pay more attention to the time and rewards then.

It is longer than 3 netracell runs, but you only sacrifice 2 netracell runs to do Deep archi, and get the equivalent of 5 netracell runs out of it.

Then you still have 3 netracell runs after that you can also do, for the total of 8 rewards

[Stormandreas]

6 hours ago, Numerounius said:

There are some threads about people pleased the DA difficultly and stuff it has to offer. You might be more suited for those types of threads instead of ones complaining about the loadout randomizer and other stuff that you disagree with.

I'm not playing it because I know I can do it and don't want to risk getting a mission fail but rather because it would be very tedious if 5x Netracells wasn't already. I am still following discussions to see what sort of tweaks DE can glean from it, both on the positive side and negative side.

Wait so... you don't do deep archimedian because:

• Because doing 5 netracells is tedious? (and doing deep archi would mean 1 deep archi run and 3 netracells...)

and not because

• You know you can do it
• Don't want to risk a mission fail (despite knowing you can do it and despite that mission fail not effecting your rewards)

Huh?

[Kaiga]

8 hours ago, Chewarette said:

I'm on the "random loadout is OK" side, but your post is just flaming tbh, not sure any constructive discussion can emerge out of that

This. 

We've already discussed this to death, and this thread is just unconstructive flame about telling other people how the OP wants them to play.

[Lord_Drod]

30 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

Wait so... you don't do deep archimedian because:

• Because doing 5 netracells is tedious? (and doing deep archi would mean 1 deep archi run and 3 netracells...)

and not because

• You know you can do it
• Don't want to risk a mission fail (despite knowing you can do it and despite that mission fail not effecting your rewards)

Huh?

Apparently they have some sort of weird pride with low failure rate of missions, while not caring about very high quitting numbers or I also misunderstand.  Maybe, it will take more time if you fail missions and end up not being worth it from a time standpoint. 

 

As for people wondering if its worth it.  Well that depends on the struggle you have completing and the time it takes.  Here is my loot for comparisons sake to two netracell runs:

 

[Enxchiol]

8 hours ago, C11H22O1 said:

I don't mind it but it's definitely not hard at all just makes things more tedious, putting restrictions on us seems to be the way they handle difficulty instead of creating some balance

Balancing things would require nerfs. A lot of HEAVY nerfs. Considering how the community loses their S#&$ over any minor nerf, I sadly don't see this happening anytime soon.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

8 hours ago, C11H22O1 said:

I don't mind it but it's definitely not hard at all just makes things more tedious, putting restrictions on us seems to be the way they handle difficulty instead of creating some balance

What type of balancing are we talking about though. Warframe's gameplay and longevity puts it in uncharted territory. It doesn't really have an equal that could be used for a balancing reference, especially when the theme is power fantasy. What could be used to create, and maintain, that balance without upsetting the playerbase?

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

9 hours ago, Aruquae said:

I took that excuse in Duviri, but clearly they are going to be adding that stupid randomized to more modes. This poor excuse doesn’t work anymore. Also “just play anything else” is a poor excuse in itself

This is the only complaint I really dislike. A video game offering a type of game mode that asks you to use what we claim we have mastered is perfectly acceptable and is a standard type of challenge since video games began. Just because you don't like it does not mean it's stupid or a "poor excuse". What's even worse is that the complaints are based on a 100% optional method to claiming the rewards. Why wouldn't the most challenging situation also be the most rewarding? I don't get the complaints about this.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

8 hours ago, Stormandreas said:

The rewards in Deep archi are both more numerous for less runs, and higher quality.

5 Rewards, 2 of which are exactly the same as the 2 netracell runs you'd do that you sacrifice to do it, and then 2 more with higher chances for Tauforged shards, and 1 more with no melee adaptor, and only the Legendary arcanes or a Tauforged shard.

Deep archi rewards are far better, especially when you consider there's 3 more Netracells you can do after that for a total of 8 rewards instead of 5

Agreed, and this is why I like the optional challenges associated with DA and EDA. To be able to get things faster should come with a consequence to push through. Whether that consequence is beneficial or not is as subjective as it gets, but the fact we can't use our comfort setups to get the rewards from this single, high end game mode is cool. 

[Aruquae]

35 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

This is the only complaint I really dislike. A video game offering a type of game mode that asks you to use what we claim we have mastered is perfectly acceptable and is a standard type of challenge since video games began. Just because you don't like it does not mean it's stupid or a "poor excuse". What's even worse is that the complaints are based on a 100% optional method to claiming the rewards. Why wouldn't the most challenging situation also be the most rewarding? I don't get the complaints about this.

Hmmm, this is true my post was more so venting from Duviri, rather than the newest game mode. I’m glad you can still get the main rewards. 
I guess, building off of my poor claim… how is random considered challenging? That’s what I truly dislike about it. Random is not challenging… 

[UnstarPrime]

OP, you've got 2 active topics in General Discussion right now, and both of them are you telling other people not to express opinions that are different than yours.  Don't be that guy.

If other people have different opinions about a video game than you do...that's perfectly fine, friend.

And if for whatever reason you can no longer stand reading those opinions, that's probably a sign that you're in too deep and could use a break.  Rather than trying to police what others express, just take care of yourself by taking a breather and building yourself back up.  By taking the chance to come up for air when you need it, you'll be able to recover until you can once again tolerate reading that someone feels differently than you about a video game.  And when that happens, everyone wins.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

10 hours ago, spider_enigma said:

Can you not? Thanks.

Its meant to be hard by forcing you out of your comfort zone, its not a mandatory game mode, you can go play literally anything else in the game. If we made it only stuff you owned people would sell everything they had if they could to optimize the hell out of the mode. People just want to cheese the mode rather then do the intended and collect everything for mastery

Go back to complaining about line of sight OR start building weapons.

No. 

Because all randomization does is decide how tedious the activity is going to be. It isnt "challenging" to use outdated or trash equipment, just annoying.

[Xzorn]

Ah yes.

Nyx, Vauban and Equinox with a mission that has every enemy with Overguard. Being entirely useless. Perfect comfort zone.

I actually used to play many many frames and use far more weapon variety. That isn't the issue. The issue is where DE has gone with design insuring certain things just don't work or aren't worth using. My Quanta V could strip armor in literally 1.5 seconds. Now Corrosive caps so it can't anymore. Lesion and Serro could do the same but they scuffed up melee both in terms of stances and IPS. They've done a very good job of making sure we have less good options than ever.

As result the randomization of 80% trash in the pool feels really bad.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

59 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

This is the only complaint I really dislike. A video game offering a type of game mode that asks you to use what we claim we have mastered is perfectly acceptable and is a standard type of challenge since video games began. Just because you don't like it does not mean it's stupid or a "poor excuse". What's even worse is that the complaints are based on a 100% optional method to claiming the rewards. Why wouldn't the most challenging situation also be the most rewarding? I don't get the complaints about this.

>perfectly acceptable

To you, maybe.