Do players get the implications of the Armor , resistance and status changes ?

[kadlis12]

3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Pretty sure meta is not ambiguous , it's a pretty common game terminology. It may of course have slight variations between different games.

Oh god, I will just try to rephrase my claim once again - if the "most efficient" is detached from what the user would like to do or has to do, it is just a reference point without any substance. Usually, a point pushed by a streamer.

3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Also not sure what you mean by dismissing a partial strip , the numbers are right there for you to verify.

I was referencing the recent edit: "developer" stream about which changes are on the horizon and why they intend to implement them. If you did not base your topic on that, my bad.

3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I am also not sure why I am getting this agression from you , and what do you mean by not mentioning the original state ? We are as of now playing in the original state before the changes. Anyone can do the testing.

There was no aggression, really - till you came with "I am saying whatever the current META is will rollover due to these changes." Then I became rather irritated because you settled to something like... DE intends to apply some changes, but did you realize it can bring some changes? Till then, I tried to point out which changes are coming and if that has the potential to affect something or how. But your backing to "changes can bring changes and I did not say anything"... yep, that deserved some adequate response.

Edited April 27 by kadlis12

[FiveN9ne]

28 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Yeah? 

The current Viral that came about due to them changing the initial scaling of armor while at the same time deleting how Corrosive worked, going from full stripn to partial strip, and Viral, which went from halving your health to increasing damage.

This cascaded into the current state of armor being so overturned that other options are ignored, because even with the scaling dropping off, it still had more EHP that people shifting from Corrosive to Viral because that was the new Anti-Armor.

"Cascaded into the current state of armor being overtuned" - You must not remember old enemy scaling if you think this is a current thing. The game has been like that since its inception, it's nothing new so lets stop pretending this is a recent "problem". 

Not sure what your point is anyway? Armor is not overtuned at all unless you do endurance. Most players live in starchart and base SP, where armor is a non-issue. Is your goal to diversify elemental usage? That's not gonna happen because something will always come out on top, be it due to armor or other factors.

Old viral was better than current viral as HP scales up and as armor becomes higher. Enemy has 10mil HP? 1 viral proc and voila 5mil HP now. 

What about them bringing back Corrosive full strip through shards, what was the point of that? 

[0_The_F00l]

33 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

 

I'm surprised you're saying this when my first post:

Was specifically made to call out the current version of the Armor EHP dwarfing everything and people saying that removing this would remove diversity. 

My point was always about how currently armor was so strong that it overshadowed every thing else and trying to say that it's okay, just homogenized your builds to always have anti armor, reduces gaming diversity. 

I never brought up that they were going to change it. It's always been about the current state and how people say that right now it's fine and encourages diversity instead of the opposite. 

Do YOU get it? 

Can't say I get it cause you are not really maintaining a coherent line of reasoning. Or I am misunderstanding or not able to follow it well enough. I am not even sure if you are in support of the future  changes , complaining about existing Armor dominance or angry at DE for not doing things earlier.

 

One one side you are claiming we still need to build things for Armor mitigation for all factions in a mocking example , which I think is partially untrue once the changes happen and also complaining about the homoginised loadouts.

My point of view has , for this discussion atleast , always been from their proposed changes and how they impact the existing setups.

I am trying to understand your pov.

[Stormandreas]

I think you miss what these changes are actually going to do.

They aren't going the change the meta they are going to boost it.

By making enemies have more health, that means we have even more incentive to use Viral, the meta element.
By making enemies have less armour, that means we Corrosive now has a bigger impact on their DR
By making enemies have less armour, that means we Heat now has a bigger impact on their DR and will do more damage in general because of it.

DE have tried to seperate the concept of Elemental Damage and Elemenetal Effect, which is a fools errand. They are one and the same.

While less armour does mean other raw elemental damage types can do a little more damage, that means nothing when Viral is getting +325% to all health types in the game, and Corrosive and heat are stripping down armour on their own to get effectively similar results.
Slash effects also get boosted by Viral, so again, further compounding that combo considering how much more prevalent Viral will be.

No other elements are doing these kinds of effects, and their effects are not strong enough to remotely compete either.
Sure, Cold giving more CD is nice. You know whats nicer? Flatout bonus damage with a stronger, more diverse element type. I introduce to you, Viral.

Then when we look at shields... Toxin exists. Why do more damage to shields when you can just ignore them.

[(PSN)rexis12]

2 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

complaining about existing Armor dominanc

Literally just this, I'm not sure how you managed to think I'm complaining about the future changes when my posts was always about the current state. 

4 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

One one side you are claiming we still need to build things for Armor mitigation

For now, we still do. 

With both those faction specific armor and Acolytes, due to their EHP dwarfing the rest of the faction. 

Again I've said it before and I'll say it again. 

"Why am I building for Anti-Armor in the Shield and Health faction?"

 

[0_The_F00l]

52 minutes ago, kadlis12 said:

Oh god, I will just try to rephrase my claim once again - if the "most efficient" is detached from what the user would like to do or has to do, it is just a reference point without any substance. Usually, a point pushed by a streamer.

Ok , I don't think i said anything to the contrary , individual players are ofcourse free to have a playstyle that they enjoy that is not meta.

52 minutes ago, kadlis12 said:

I was referencing the recent stream about which changes are on the horizon and why they intend to implement them. If you did not base your topic on that, my bad.

The only stream worth referencing is the devstream 179 (and that also has a disclaimer of it being subject to change) Anything else by random youtubers is just opinions , I don't waste my time with those for purpose of having discussions.

53 minutes ago, kadlis12 said:

 

There was no aggression, really - till you came with "I am saying whatever the current META is will rollover due to these changes." Then I became rather irritated because you settled to something like... DE intends to apply some changes, but did you realize it can bring some changes? Till then, I tried to point out which changes are coming and if that has the potential to affect something or how. But your backing to "changes can bring changes and I did not say anything"... yep, that deserved some adequate response.

The meta will rollover , I stand by that. But we will see how much.

Not sure I understand the changes can bring change , part. I may have to check for some grammar.

[0_The_F00l]

27 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Literally just this, I'm not sure how you managed to think I'm complaining about the future changes when my posts was always about the current state. 

For now, we still do. 

With both those faction specific armor and Acolytes, due to their EHP dwarfing the rest of the faction. 

Again I've said it before and I'll say it again. 

"Why am I building for Anti-Armor in the Shield and Health faction?"

 

Ah , i guess issue was on my end in understanding. Thanks for clarifying it's about the existing setup.

[helioth137]

2 hours ago, Snowbluff said:

So what they said is TTK will be similar, but if that's the case you sample grineer would be getting like 10x the HP. This isn't an improvement, this is just making armor stripping less good and basically giving you less tools for dealing with their absurdly high EHP.

So nothing will change. If an enemy had 99% DR and 5000 hp, it would have  500,000 effective HP. So with these changes the DR would be 90% and 50,000 HP to compensate, with the same EHP. So nothing would change, your gas elec strategy would be the same effectiveness even if the numbers would look bigger. This would mostly mean that armor strip is being nerfed, since enemies are going to be tankier without their armor.

actually they specifically said health would NOT equal what the old armour value was. 

armour is simply being reduced and lowered in effectiveness for NPC's as a total, making it effective if you don't completely strip armour, instead of giving you only +5/ 10% dmg.

They never said "everything will have the same ehp as now", that was your speculation my snowy friend

[Snowbluff]

21 minutes ago, helioth137 said:

actually they specifically said health would NOT equal what the old armour value was. 

armour is simply being reduced and lowered in effectiveness for NPC's as a total, making it effective if you don't completely strip armour, instead of giving you only +5/ 10% dmg.

They never said "everything will have the same ehp as now", that was your speculation my snowy friend

Only half correct. HP is being increase, and they did say to the point where TTK would be the same. So either way enemies will have a lot more HP.

[helioth137]

3 minutes ago, Snowbluff said:

Only half correct. HP is being increase, and they did say to the point where TTK would be the same. So either way enemies will have a lot more HP.

Hp is being increased but they specifically said not the equivalent amount as armour value now. 
I listened to the dev stream and they didn't say t-t-k would be equal :| where did you get that from? 

Depending on if you fight endgame enemies (9999) you absolutely have to
have complete armour reduction OR slash, they're changing the meta with this change so the other elements are useful,
of course they have to compensate a bit. 

Perhaps you don't do those hour + long void cascade runs or whatever, but
it's nice they open up diversity for more frames now with this change. 

Good move. 

(sry for slightly hostile tone, but sick of all the downers in forum, never satisfied with anything, finding a new thing to complain about instead of for once being grateful + happy... i guess that makes me a downer myself, getting down about the downers :P )

Edited April 27 by helioth137

[Snowbluff]

6 minutes ago, helioth137 said:

Hp is being increased but they specifically said not the equivalent amount as armour value now. 
I listened to the dev stream and they didn't say t-t-k would be equal :| where did you get that from? 

"Health scaling of Grineer enemies will be re-aligned, to an extent, to help compensate for the loss in Damage Reduction and to try and maintain a similar time-to-kill feel."

For this to not be the case, they will have to not significantly change the HP of the grineer, but at the same time it sounds like the opposite of what they are trying to do.

[SneakyErvin]

I can see a few nice combos from the changes.

Since we'll face more health and less armor I might go nourish on my current Roar using frames and then mod ranged weapons for corrosive+heat and melee with Blast+Electric for influence. That is if Blast becomes something good. Otherwise I'll just stay with Roar and change guns to corrosive+heat and continue running viral+electric on influence melee.

Guns modded for heat will likely also have HM removed in order to utilize more heat.

Edited April 27 by SneakyErvin

[Kaotyke]

8 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Did they really say they will NOT do changes to any other things i

I don't think they mentioned anything and just gave a few examples like the Corrosion being the main one.

But you know what this means: They PROMISED to never touch the other elements!!!!11!?@321!!

[0_The_F00l]

30 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

I don't think they mentioned anything and just gave a few examples like the Corrosion being the main one.

But you know what this means: They PROMISED to never touch the other elements!!!!11!?@321!!

Hah , DE tries, but i wouldnt take their promises any more seriously than those of a child claiming he will be president of the moon.

They more often than not change things either due to limitations they were unaware of before or because it would be too much effort.

[Kaotyke]

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

But I am overall looking forward to these changes eagerly. It's going to be a very significant change that will affect a lot of things. Would lovbe to discuss views and opinions on how this will (or not) impact you.

To put this into perspective, do you remember how Status chance on Shotguns used to work? The difference from 99% to 100% was from "99% one pellet will proc" to "ALL pellets will proc".

When they showed the graphs of Corrosive Stacks, I saw the funny number again. The sheer difference between 80% Armor reduced to 100% when you have a Green Archon Shards, is the same situation as the old shotguns, but for Armor.

[0_The_F00l]

16 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

To put this into perspective, do you remember how Status chance on Shotguns used to work? The difference from 99% to 100% was from "99% one pellet will proc" to "ALL pellets will proc".

When they showed the graphs of Corrosive Stacks, I saw the funny number again. The sheer difference between 80% Armor reduced to 100% when you have a Green Archon Shards, is the same situation as the old shotguns, but for Armor.

I do remember , this was at a time when status on shotguns had a cap due to available mods and some shotguns (and their rivens) pushed them into 100% status territory per pellet due to some calculation logic, i never liked that shoehorn tactic , and am glad its per pellet now,

Yes as regard to the corrosive shards, i saw this coming from a mile away when they introduced it, I actually saw it coming when they made armor strip abilities permanent and able to stack,

If they are going to make it easy to remove armor now , they will be making armor less relevant soon.

So it was a matter of when for me.

Thats why i believe its a step amongst many towards a more holistic change in small increments. Mark my words , there will be changes to our damage output too.

[trst]

10 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

You do know that it's because of armor that only a fraction of our damage types get considered right? 

Like before Viral was Meta, it was Corrosive and Corrosive Projection that was the Meta.

And it was due to Armor. 

Makes no difference. As I said players will pick what's best for the "most difficult" faction then brute force everything else with that same typing.

Like if DE made shields the strongest defensive typing and they do something like make Toxic effective vs shields instead of bypassing it then we'd likely see Magnetic + Toxic as the meta elements on all builds. Or if armor is still just troublesome enough then nothing changes other than bothering to build anti-armor goes from optional to pointless if you just throw enough damage on. 

 

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I like to look at it as the next step for more things to come.

I think the first step happened with the ammo rework.

Historically DE has never taken enough steps with things like this. Just like the ammo/AOE changes which didn't actually stop spam due to all the ways we have to restore ammo. It also did next to nothing in relation to the automation of gameplay as there's still other automation methods DE didn't touch.

Which is why the whole thing sounds like a bad idea. If DE does the same thing and stops half-way (or right out the gate again) then we might be sitting in a far worse system. One where your choices matter a lot less due to it being even easier to brute force past resistances/typing. Or nothing actually changes and we get things shifted around, again, to just having another tiny set of meta elements.

If DE doesn't commit to fixing the system then we'll just be waiting for Damage 4.0 to eventually roll around in another attempt to fix the mess they left for us.

Edited April 27 by trst

[0_The_F00l]

9 minutes ago, trst said:

Makes no difference. As I said players will pick what's best for the "most difficult" faction then brute force everything else with that same typing.

Like if DE made shields the strongest defensive typing and they do something like make Toxic effective vs shields instead of bypassing it then we'd likely see Magnetic + Toxic as the meta elements on all builds. Or if armor is still just troublesome enough then nothing changes other than bothering to build anti-armor goes from optional to pointless if you just throw enough damage on.

Thats assuming the difference between "most difficult" and "next best difficult" and "third best difficult" faction is a lot. We currently dont know how it will work out.

10 minutes ago, trst said:

Historically DE has never taken enough steps with things like this. Just like the ammo/AOE changes which didn't actually stop spam due to all the ways we have to restore ammo. It also did next to nothing in relation to the automation of gameplay as there's still other automation methods DE didn't touch.

Which is why the whole thing sounds like a bad idea. If DE does the same thing and stops half-way (or right out the gate again) then we might be sitting in a far worse system. One where your choices matter a lot less due to it being even easier to brute force past resistances/typing. Or nothing actually changes and we get things shifted around, again, to just having another tiny set of meta elements.

If DE doesn't commit to fixing the system then we'll just be waiting for Damage 4.0 to eventually roll around in another attempt to fix the mess they left for us.

I think Ammo changes did enough by themselves , i dont get blinded by aoe explosions in my face as often as i used to and i see fewer players with a bramma or zarr in my squads,

i think it was a great change cause you can still see players use them. Just not by those that are not willing to update their playstyles.

I do feel DE will try to (and sometimes succeed and sometimes fail) when trying to squish such automated playstyles without affecting the other players over time. Warframe is a live game and it will have live changes done over time.

Trying and failing is better than not trying at all and failing anyway.

[Xzorn]

They'll need to ramp up HP/Shield scaling considerably. Near old levels for it to make much difference.

Old Corpus Options:

• Toxic until level 300ish unless the weapon has base x3 Crit multiplier
• Viral + Electric post 300 on x2 Crit Multi weapons as health scaled higher than shields.
• Gas + Cold on high status. Esp when Cold extended the duration of status effects.
• Gas + Electric on high status more rapid fire weapons.
• Blast + Toxic on AoE weapons. Nice CC lock kill zones.

New Corpus Options:

• Toxic with Corrosive side arm cuz they used armor as a crutch.

 

Capping armor to 90% more or less just means more players will be using the old endurance runner trick of not fully stripping armor. Back when Corrosive did 25% with no cap you wanted armor to be around 30-50% by around half health on an Armored unit since Corrosive could reduce the remaining value by 75% in addition to giving +75% but this was also a 90% + 60/60x2 meta where Corrosive was a larger part of your damage output.

Even with a +3 Tau Emerald players will still be incline to use 60/60x2 + Heat which does give gains for not fully stripping but then Viral + Bleed with it's massive x4.25 multiplier still dominates so while it's nice they acknowledge capping Corrosive and Enemy Defense Scaling was a bad idea. I don't see much changing.

Least for me. I already don't fully strip armor because of the above reasons.

[Greysmog]

16 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I do think there are plans to tweak other statuses ,

Did they really say they will NOT do changes to any other things i was sleepy when i saw the devstream so may have missed it ? besides there are still ways to change how things work functionally without changing the mechanics of thing , the ammo rework showed that for many weapons. Health increase and damage resistance to bleed for certain factions could dramatically affect how slash would behave without changing slash itself.

I feel they just don't want to say it now and want to get the player reaction to the buffs before talking about the nerfs (either direct or indirect).

 

At the very beginning of his discussion, Pablo outright stated he won't be touching Viral and Slash, as these changes are focused on bringing up other Status Effects first. 

Which is totally fair, you can't really justify nerfing Viral or Heat when there aren't nearly as strong options currently. 

The hope however is that they realize some of the top elementals still need to be reigned in at least partially, but that all depends on what's getting buffed. If enemy health is increased significantly (which doesn't seem like the case with how Pablo was explaining it), then you probably won't have to change them at all.

It's why I'm holding off on real constructive feedback since everything is so vague. We don't know the full process so I'm mostly waiting to see what's actually confirmed.

[Greysmog]

6 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Thats assuming the difference between "most difficult" and "next best difficult" and "third best difficult" faction is a lot. We currently dont know how it will work out.

I think Ammo changes did enough by themselves , i dont get blinded by aoe explosions in my face as often as i used to and i see fewer players with a bramma or zarr in my squads,

i think it was a great change cause you can still see players use them. Just not by those that are not willing to update their playstyles.

I do feel DE will try to (and sometimes succeed and sometimes fail) when trying to squish such automated playstyles without affecting the other players over time. Warframe is a live game and it will have live changes done over time.

Trying and failing is better than not trying at all and failing anyway.

The biggest issue with the ammo rework is just that Blast sucks as an element currently. If the buff they give it is significant enough, I'm sure literally knee-capping the ammo for those weapons would make more sense. 

I'm not sure what they mean by "blastier", but I'm hoping it's just something useful and not something utterly bonkers. Maybe try making Blast work better with Corrosive for instance by having it actually blast away enemy defenses. If Heat reduces Armor by 50%, why not just make Blast reduce it and Shields per proc. As a sort of in-between for Heat and Cold.

Edited April 27 by Greysmog

[SneakyErvin]

On 2024-04-27 at 7:20 PM, Xzorn said:

They'll need to ramp up HP/Shield scaling considerably. Near old levels for it to make much difference.

Old Corpus Options:

• Toxic until level 300ish unless the weapon has base x3 Crit multiplier
• Viral + Electric post 300 on x2 Crit Multi weapons as health scaled higher than shields.
• Gas + Cold on high status. Esp when Cold extended the duration of status effects.
• Gas + Electric on high status more rapid fire weapons.
• Blast + Toxic on AoE weapons. Nice CC lock kill zones.

New Corpus Options:

• Toxic with Corrosive side arm cuz they used armor as a crutch.

 

Capping armor to 90% more or less just means more players will be using the old endurance runner trick of not fully stripping armor. Back when Corrosive did 25% with no cap you wanted armor to be around 30-50% by around half health on an Armored unit since Corrosive could reduce the remaining value by 75% in addition to giving +75% but this was also a 90% + 60/60x2 meta where Corrosive was a larger part of your damage output.

Even with a +3 Tau Emerald players will still be incline to use 60/60x2 + Heat which does give gains for not fully stripping but then Viral + Bleed with it's massive x4.25 multiplier still dominates so while it's nice they acknowledge capping Corrosive and Enemy Defense Scaling was a bad idea. I don't see much changing.

Least for me. I already don't fully strip armor because of the above reasons.

Just be aware that the new system wont have the same rules for when you get or do not get bonus damage from an element. Currently it is based on the health type you attack, so if a target has felsh and armor and the armor is still partially there you get bonus damage based on the armor resitances and weaknesses. With the new system it will just be based on the faction or subfaction on the node where you do the mission, it wont matter if the enemy has just health, health+armor, health+shields or health+armor+shields, you will always benefit from the bonus damage that is listed for the damage type on the node.

So versus Grineer, if it says +corrosive on the node then corrosive will deal + worth of extra damage no matter if the grineer are fully stripped or not. The main question will be if adding corrosive shards or not will be worth it with the new scaling, or if damage will rip through things fast enough even with just 80%(90 with heat) removed. And since it seems the cap will be based on rating i.e 2700, removing the last 10% seems meh, since it will just be 270 armor, or if you go with just corrosive 540 armor.

They could potentially go with 90% as the cap and "infinite" armor rating, but that wouldnt really change much, since we'd end up with what we have now or worse, where the first few ticks ould do nothing until you get the armor below 2700 since that is the breakpoint for 90%. They said they wanted to streamline it though from the bottom and up to the cap, so I assume they'll increase the reduction gained from lower armor while capping it at 2700 for 90% reduction.

[Xzorn]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

So versus Grineer, if it says +corrosive on the node then corrosive will deal + worth of extra damage no matter if the grineer are fully stripped or not. The main question will be if adding corrosive shards or not will be worth it with the new scaling, or if damage will rip through things fast enough even with just 80%(90 with heat) removed. And since it seems the cap will be based on rating i.e 2700, removing the last 10% seems meh, since it will just be 270 armor, or if you go with just corrosive 540 armor.

 

This is why my very first question on the first page of that post was asking if bonus modifiers were still going to double dip armor.

If they do then it will never be worth fully stripping armor. It wasn't worth doing against Ferrite when Corrosive was 25% per proc and we ran 90% + 60/60 and it's still not generally worth it with 60/60x2 Corrosive + Heat. The enemy would need to stay alive a notable amount of time for the Heat DoT to catch up.

I already run only a single Tau +3 Emerald to drop armor to 1%.

[PollexMessier]

Nothing is going to make magnetic worth building for as long is it's only purpose is anti-shield. That limits it almost entirely to corpus only. It's basically a worse faction damage.

Shields still don't recharge as long as the enemy is taking damage. and most people just shoot at the enemy till they die, but also have at least one DoT effect on nearly all of their weapons. Enemy's shield recharge changes very little.

I do like that the reduced armor makes corrosive viable again. But I think it's stupid that we needed an archon shard and an enemy armor nerf to bring corrosive back up to where it was before they nerfed it. When they could have, and should have, just reverted the corrosive nerf because it was completely unwarranted to begin with. Compounding on DE's frustrating trend of making a mistake, refusing to admit it was a mistake and just reversing it, and instead ""fixing"" it years later by changing the rest of the game to accommodate.
Yeah this also makes other elements a lot more viable. But still I don't understand wth has been going through their heads on the state of corrosive this whole time.

And remember when gas was good? Yeah at one point we had a meta consisting of 3 different meta status setups until they nerfed the two that competed with viral slash which was already dominating... and buffed viral slash...

DE don't know what they're doing with elements. So I'm deeply concerned that they're just going to screw this up as badly as they did last time. But regardless it's still not going to be as diverse as it once was cus they refuse to undo past mistakes.

The best thing they could do to mix up the meta is introduce a set of base element mods that don't merge together into dual elements, or merge into existing dual elements. So you can have multiple base elements, or a base element and a dual element that's comprised of that base element on the same weapon. That would make things real interesting.

[TARINunit9]

On 2024-04-27 at 1:54 AM, kadlis12 said:

META means what is pushed by streamers

"Meta" is short for "metagaming" which means "playing around based on how other people play the game." It means different things in different contexts (in Dungeons and Dragons for example it means "changing your character's tactics based on your real life knowledge") but there is no context that means "blindly gobbling up what the streamers tell you to use"

(And the way you type it in all caps implies you believe it means "most effective tactic available"; that's a backronym and was not the original definition)