Proboscis Cernos is not considered an upgraded version of Mutalist Cernos in duviri/teshin's cave?

[hotbeast]

Mutalist Cernos keeps showing up in my Teshin's Cave offerings, but I thought Proboscis Cernos is the upgraded version of that so it shouldn't be showing a 'weaker' version?

Thanks,

[Rathalio]

It is considered two different weapons. And it is in fact two different weapons that have vastly different game mechanics.

And if I remember correctly, the Cernos prime is also considered an upgrade for the regular Cernos but not for the Mutalist or the Proboscis.

Edit: You also have the example of the Quanta / Quanta Vandal being separate from the Quanta Mutalist.

Edited May 15 by Rathalio

[Zahnrad]

As Rathalio has said, they're considered different weapons.

I think this comes down to the Prefix, for example, the Dragon Nikana is considered an upgrade of the Nikana.

The Nikana Prime should then be considered an upgrade of the Dragon Nikana right? I mean it even follows the same jump of damage that the Nikana and Dragon Nikana have, right?

And yet, the Dragon Nikana is not considered to be part of the "Nikana" family as Dragon Nikana Rivens and Nikana Rivens both seperately exist.

Would be funny if we got a Dragon Nikana Prime though.

[Zakkhar]

1 hour ago, Zahnny said:

for example, the Dragon Nikana is considered an upgrade of the Nikana.

No, it is not.

1 hour ago, Zahnny said:

And yet, the Dragon Nikana is not considered to be part of the "Nikana" family as Dragon Nikana Rivens and Nikana Rivens both seperately exist.

I am confused. Or are you?

[Fred_Avant_2019]

If the Riven for it has a different name, then it's not an upgrade, it's a whole different thing.

Example : Cernos has two upgrades in Rakta Cernos and Cernos Prime and shares rivens with them, however, it doesn't share its rivens with Mutalist or Proboscis Cernos.

Same logic applies to Akimbo pistols : Magnus and Akmagnus do not share their rivens. They are not upgrades, they are a different weapon.

[Agall]

3 hours ago, Zahnny said:

And yet, the Dragon Nikana is not considered to be part of the "Nikana" family as Dragon Nikana Rivens and Nikana Rivens both seperately exist.

Would be funny if we got a Dragon Nikana Prime though.

Dragon Nikana is a separate weapon to Nikana, Dex Nikana, and Nikana Prime.

We're more likely to see Dragon Nikana Incarnon than Prime, probably the most likely choice for an Incarnon 'nikana type' weapon that I assume we'll eventually get more variety of.

1 hour ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

If the Riven for it has a different name, then it's not an upgrade, it's a whole different thing.

Example : Cernos has two upgrades in Rakta Cernos and Cernos Prime and shares rivens with them, however, it doesn't share its rivens with Mutalist or Proboscis Cernos.

Same logic applies to Akimbo pistols : Magnus and Akmagnus do not share their rivens. They are not upgrades, they are a different weapon.

The only anomaly I know of is with Excalibur for founders, where I've never seen Umbra in Circuit. I'd rather them be considered separate Warframe options.

 

2 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

No, it is not.

Dragon Nikana is considered an upgrade for Nikana from the perspective of a new player who just hit MR8 and can now get the Dragon Nikana. That might've been a 2013/2014 time sort of concern though.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

il y a 14 minutes, Agall a dit :

The only anomaly I know of is with Excalibur for founders, where I've never seen Umbra in Circuit. I'd rather them be considered separate Warframe options.

I think you can "force" umbra if you have more formas on it, I'm not sure.

[Agall]

8 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

I think you can "force" umbra if you have more formas on it, I'm not sure.

Does that work on other 'lesser' versions in Circuit and would you like to donate 50 forma to this research? 😄

I wouldn't doubt if it was based on %used as well, which'll take me a few years to correct if that's the case...

[Fred_Avant_2019]

il y a 15 minutes, Agall a dit :

Does that work on other 'lesser' versions in Circuit and would you like to donate 50 forma to this research? 😄

I wouldn't doubt if it was based on %used as well, which'll take me a few years to correct if that's the case...

I'm not sure about it, but there had been people complaining about certain variants showing up in duviri circuit which they hadn't modded, so DE ended up doing something about it where I >THINK< it calculates the uncapped capacity of the mods of your configs. Should show up in circuit patch notes if correct.

[Tsukinoki]

4 hours ago, hotbeast said:

Mutalist Cernos keeps showing up in my Teshin's Cave offerings, but I thought Proboscis Cernos is the upgraded version of that so it shouldn't be showing a 'weaker' version?

Nope, separate weapons entirely.

A good way to check this is Rivens.  If a riven for one weapon works in the other they are considered the "same" weapon and therefore the rule you're thinking of in the cave applies.
On the other hand if you can't use the riven of one weapon in another weapon then they are counted as "different" weapons and therefore both have a chance to show up in the cave.

 

In this case the Mutalist Cernos, which fires an arrow that creates a gas cloud, counts as a different version than the Proboscis Cernos, which pulls enemies inwards with tentacles and explodes into viral damage.

26 minutes ago, Agall said:

Does that work on other 'lesser' versions in Circuit

IIRC (and I could be wrong) the checks in the cave are:
-Incarnon application
-Mod capacity used (as if unlimited mod capacity and no forma)

For example you have the Gorgon Wraith and the Prisma Gorgon.
One has incarnon and one doesn't, the one with incarnon will be the one to show up in the cave.  This one can override the upgraded check for sure as if you have a base Gorgon with Incarnon that will be the one to show up instead of Wraith or Prisma.
Both have incarnon?  Then it chooses the one with the most mod capacity used.

 

I don't know if the mod capacity check will change whether you get the "upgraded" version or not, as in can you get base Lato instead of Lato Vandal/Prime (assuming all other parameters including incarnon are equal), but I do know how it works between gear of the same "upgrade" level.  E.G Vandal vs. Wraith vs. Prisma

 

Theoretically Umbra/Prime should work the same, but I don't have the time to apply a bunch of forma to excal umbra and then run circuits endlessly until it appears as an option in the cave.

Edited May 15 by Tsukinoki

[Agall]

2 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

IIRC (and I could be wrong) the checks in the cave are:
-Incarnon application
-Mod capacity used (as if unlimited mod capacity and no forma)

I do have Excalibur Umbra fully configured, even with tau violet shards to mirror Prime (to prove a point mostly). There's about a 11,000x difference in usage though.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

IIRC (and I could be wrong) the checks in the cave are:
-Incarnon application
-Mod capacity used (as if unlimited mod capacity and no forma)

I -think- Incarnon is checked, and then Prime/Tenet/Kuva, then "advanced variant Prisma/Wraith/Vandal etc., and then random after that.   At least I can't find any hint of used capacity being a factor. 

There is a used capacity check for determining default config. "Warframes and Weapons now default to Mod Config A if it uses 40+ capacity (raw drain of Mods installed), rather than defaulting to another Config with the highest capacity. If Config A is not using 40+ capacity, it will default to the highest capacity Mod Config as before."

There is also a forma count check but SFAIK only for duplicates of the same weapon, not different weapons in the same family.

No idea on Excal Prime vs Umbra, although Agall's experience suggests Umbra is in the same "advanced variant" layer as weapons, and behind prime.