SneakyErvin Posted May 26 Share Posted May 26 22 hours ago, PublikDomain said: Bringing ingame trade up to date with features on the level of warframe.market would be more than enough to meet the general desire for better ingame trade without the larger risks of a system with features like instant buyouts or instant delivery. We don't need whatever hyper-specific concept you have of what an "auction house" is from whatever other game, we can have our own version that works for us here. But there are some who seem to believe that any improvement to ingame trade would be bad. And that's what I was replying to Sierra about. Because trade has already been improved greatly (it's just outside of the game instead of inside of the game) and there's been no race to the bottom, no economic crash, no new dark age, no nothing. Most of these concerns are simply unfounded, with lots of historical evidence to disprove them, and for the concerns that are actually founded there are simple, easy answers. But Sierra is talking about an actual AH, not something else. We can make up several different other solutions that might work, but we arent talking AH then or an AH that would work. It is also not a "hyper-specific" concept. It is just an auction house that does what you expect from an auction house, no matter if it is in a game or real life. Which is what people ask for when they ask for an AH and will keep doing until they have an AH. He is practically pointing out the flaws and risks in the automation process of an AH. Aslong as some part of it is automated and achievable while offline, it will have a huge influx of users that will result in prices on common items (practically everything in WF) crashing. Even if instant buyout and instant delivery wasnt a thing, the part of simply being able to list items to be sold while you are offline would be enough to cripple trading. Since it would open trading up for everyone with only the need to check on trades when they are online in order to accept buy orders and refresh their stock. Even if they'd just copy/paste warframe.market and set it up for the game there would be a huge risk for it crashing the market of common items. Since it would no longer be a third party site you need to use in connection to the game, it would be a system within the game. No need for third party accounts and so on either, meaning more would use it to make sales. You even brought up the number of users for warframe.market, which is really small considering the total playerbase of the game. I can only go to myself as an example. If I had the warframe.market in the game I would have no problem undercutting others since it would make sure I'd use up all my trades daily instead of barely bothering at all with selling things as it is now. This would apply to many others aswell, just as it does in MMOs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PublikDomain Posted May 26 Share Posted May 26 1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said: But Sierra is talking about an actual AH, not something else. And I'm saying that "an actual AH" is not necessary. Trade can be improved in other ways without implementing the specific set of features you think makes "an actual AH". 1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said: Even if instant buyout and instant delivery wasnt a thing, the part of simply being able to list items to be sold while you are offline would be enough to cripple trading. Since it would open trading up for everyone with only the need to check on trades when they are online in order to accept buy orders and refresh their stock. Even if they'd just copy/paste warframe.market and set it up for the game there would be a huge risk for it crashing the market of common items. Since it would no longer be a third party site you need to use in connection to the game, it would be a system within the game. No need for third party accounts and so on either, meaning more would use it to make sales. If the argument is "I can't handle competition", well, 🤷♀️. The game doesn't need to be held back in the stone ages just to protect the handful of people scalping on trade chat. 1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said: You even brought up the number of users for warframe.market, which is really small considering the total playerbase of the game. Do me a favor: go ingame right now and go to trade chat. It lists every person participating. Count them. Now compare that to warframe.market. Trade chat is already minuscule and has been for years. Warframe.market has been the prime mover for the ingame economy for a very long time now and it's fine. You can do all the same undercutting over there, too, and while it happens sometimes the market as a whole stays quite stable. For example the Nova and Saryn sets I shared which have both retained (or gained) value over the last 3 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Madurai-Prime Posted May 26 Share Posted May 26 23 hours ago, PrideB4TheFall said: Certainly I know there are better alternatives to what we have, but do you really think DE would move on it? I'd almost say it's a forgone conclusion they won't. The system works. ( to an arguable extent.) I have never had a trade fail in 7 years. Any problems I encountered were MR restrictions, based on the prospective buyer. To this user, that's nothing. I use warframe market merely to determine a reasonable price to buy / sell at under stats. I don't even use the sites buy / selling functionality. I've never had to purchase plat in those 7 years. Self-restraint, and perseverance Veruca Salt. Exactly. The main issue some people don't admit to, is being newer (when you need the most stuff) and simply not having much to sell, or not having patience. They want to buy a bunch of skins, but getting standing to buy an augment mod and sell it for 10p takes time. Farming stuff to sell in general takes time and they haven't put it in yet. So, then a 10 year vet may say "I have everything I just don't like trading! DE fix it!" Which is a pretty lackluster reason in my opinion. They're claiming typing "wts gauss prime 50p" is an arduous process that requires blood sweat and tears.... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyErvin Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 20 hours ago, PublikDomain said: And I'm saying that "an actual AH" is not necessary. Trade can be improved in other ways without implementing the specific set of features you think makes "an actual AH". So you agree with him and me that an AH wouldnt work. 20 hours ago, PublikDomain said: If the argument is "I can't handle competition", well, 🤷♀️. The game doesn't need to be held back in the stone ages just to protect the handful of people scalping on trade chat. It isnt about competition, it is about the effect automation in trading would have. I can see an implementation of warframe.market in the game if it does nothing more than warframe.market does currently. With the same current slow trade process in the game etc. with the exception that everyone has easy access to it without jumping through 3rd party hoops. Which would add transparency for everyone regarding prices and so on. Add automation and it will turn into a dumpster fire. What we would likely see are prices hitting rock bottom and instead of having some people in "the know" you'd instead have "no lifers" earning S#&$ per sale and not caring about it, while others with less time to spend get practically nothing from what they can sell with our limited trades. I've seen this in other games, where even some of my friends were these "no lifers". Spending days farming something and then dumping it on an AH for a massive undercut price since they didnt really care due to the amount they sold. 21 hours ago, PublikDomain said: Do me a favor: go ingame right now and go to trade chat. It lists every person participating. Count them. Now compare that to warframe.market. Trade chat is already minuscule and has been for years. Warframe.market has been the prime mover for the ingame economy for a very long time now and it's fine. You can do all the same undercutting over there, too, and while it happens sometimes the market as a whole stays quite stable. For example the Nova and Saryn sets I shared which have both retained (or gained) value over the last 3 months. "Now" doesnt matter, since "now" doesnt reflect a situation where an easily accessible trade tool would be available, since well... we dont have one. The activity across both the trade chat and warframe.market are low currently because they are either cumbersome to use or a third party option. Adding even just the warframe.market interface to the game would multiply trades several times over due to simple ease of use/access and being part of the game. It is practically the only option that would be sensible, because it will likely increase purchases aswell since people wouldnt need to owl over trade chat in order to buy something. However, doing anything more than that for trading would likely risk things crashing, especially automating certain functions. I can see them adding warframe.market and skipping the need to physically meet in Dojo or the Bazaar. That would keep things similar to how they are now and remove latency issues etc. if handled properly. Like OP mentions, a mailing system would be great for this. You sell item X and another player buys it. Then you plop it into a mail where you also set the plat price the two of you agreed on. When the buyer recieves that mail he pays the plat in order to recieve the items, at which point you, the seller, gets a return mail with the plat. Works perfectly in some other games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Anise_ Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 On 2024-05-17 at 2:08 PM, ShogunGunshow said: be aware that means you're going to have to earn and sell like 3-4x more of the same item or DE can just set minimum prices based on items historic average worth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PublikDomain Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said: So you agree with him and me that an AH wouldnt work. In general, no I don't agree with you. An auction house would work just fine. Warframe.market has already shown this truth plainly. Will the hyper-specific "actual AH" that has the set of features you've yet to define work? I don't know. You'll have to be specific and let us all know what "an actual AH" actually means, because none of us here are mind readers. What specific features are you talking about? There are certainly some which wouldn't fit with what DE has talked about in the past - but an auction house can simply be implemented without those. 1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said: It isnt about competition, it is about the effect automation in trading would have. It sure doesn't sound like it's not about competition, but if it's actually "automation" that you feel would be the problem then again how is this any different from what we already have today? warframe.market already automates much of the process and makes organizing a trade near instant, and beyond that people can already create further tools to read trade chat or integrate with warframe.market's API to automate even more of the process. There are only a few steps left that still need to be done manually - something that could be preserved in an ingame auction house if you use even just a tiny amount of imagination. 2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said: I can see an implementation of warframe.market in the game if it does nothing more than warframe.market does currently. 2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said: It is practically the only option that would be sensible, because it will likely increase purchases aswell since people wouldnt need to owl over trade chat in order to buy something. 2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said: I can see them adding warframe.market and skipping the need to physically meet in Dojo or the Bazaar. That would keep things similar to how they are now and remove latency issues etc. if handled properly. On 2024-05-22 at 7:35 AM, PublikDomain said: 1. There are more ways to make an "auction house" than whatever one version you're thinking of. For example, expanding the Bazaar to meet parity with warframe.market's existing features, just ingame and tied to existing limitations like daily trades. 2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said: The activity across both the trade chat and warframe.market are low currently because they are either cumbersome to use or a third party option. Warframe.market is huge, what are you even talking about? There are about 20k people on warframe.market right now. And that's not just people who pop in to use the market once in a while, that's people actively on the site right now. About 3/4 of those are active traders. Meanwhile there are only about 44k people playing the game on Steam right now. What do you even mean "low"? The activity numbers are so large even I find it a little hard to believe. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venus-Venera Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 vor 2 Stunden schrieb _Anise_: or DE can just set minimum prices based on items historic average worth? The only question is whether it can be sold. Because they will certainly not take the prices as on the website. but adapt the whole thing to items from the shop in-game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyErvin Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 19 hours ago, PublikDomain said: In general, no I don't agree with you. An auction house would work just fine. Warframe.market has already shown this truth plainly. Will the hyper-specific "actual AH" that has the set of features you've yet to define work? I don't know. You'll have to be specific and let us all know what "an actual AH" actually means, because none of us here are mind readers. What specific features are you talking about? There are certainly some which wouldn't fit with what DE has talked about in the past - but an auction house can simply be implemented without those. Clearly it wouldnt since the changes needed would result in it no longer filling the purposes of an auction house. We are also not hyper-specific, it is simply what an auction house is, both in games and real life. So if someone needs to be specific and describe that to you, maybe you should step into the real world aswell as other games? 19 hours ago, PublikDomain said: It sure doesn't sound like it's not about competition, but if it's actually "automation" that you feel would be the problem then again how is this any different from what we already have today? warframe.market already automates much of the process and makes organizing a trade near instant, and beyond that people can already create further tools to read trade chat or integrate with warframe.market's API to automate even more of the process. There are only a few steps left that still need to be done manually - something that could be preserved in an ingame auction house if you use even just a tiny amount of imagination. You simply dont get it, because you dont understand at all what an auction house is. If you did you would also see what we mean with automation. The warframe.market isnt automated. It requires manual input for everything, putting listings up, making deals with buyers/sellers, trading those items between the two, removing listings and so on. What we talk about is the automation of an auction, which I already went over, but you seemed to miss or ignored reading. You interact with the place once, then the system/auctioneer solves everything else. You might have to interact with it once more after a sale is done to collect your earning or relist items that havent sold. But in most cases you are either mailed the earnings or you can use the AH as a bank until you collect it all. No part of the warframe.market shares parts of what defines an AH, hence why it is just a listing post/site for sell and buy orders. 19 hours ago, PublikDomain said: Expanding the Bazaar to be similar to warframe.market would not be the same as an AH. That is my point. People would keep asking for an AH since adding warframe.market would not be adding an AH. So, an AH is a very bad idea, no matter if you think what you come up with is an AH idea. Because it isnt, it is something completely different and serves no purpose of an AH. So again, you agree with us that say AH would be a bad idea. But you again cringing your way to trying to destroy a defined concept and call something else that thing. The warframe.market and your idea = listing post/board/site. An auction house = something completely different to that. 19 hours ago, PublikDomain said: Warframe.market is huge, what are you even talking about? There are about 20k people on warframe.market right now. And that's not just people who pop in to use the market once in a while, that's people actively on the site right now. About 3/4 of those are active traders. Meanwhile there are only about 44k people playing the game on Steam right now. What do you even mean "low"? The activity numbers are so large even I find it a little hard to believe. Heh no it isnt huge. As you say, 20k on warframe.market when there are 44k online through just Steam. It would be somewhat decent, but not great, if Steam was the total population. But those 20k are people wts and wtb across all the platforms, not just Steam and not just PC. If you think those numbers are "so large" that you "find it a little too hard to believe" you'd die if you set foot in any avarage MMO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PublikDomain Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 (edited) 2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said: Clearly it wouldnt since the changes needed would result in it no longer filling the purposes of an auction house. We are also not hyper-specific, it is simply what an auction house is, both in games and real life. So if someone needs to be specific and describe that to you, maybe you should step into the real world aswell as other games? Please be specific if you're going to nitpick about this specificity. 2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said: As you say, 20k on warframe.market when there are 44k online through just Steam. It would be somewhat decent, but not great, if Steam was the total population. But those 20k are people wts and wtb across all the platforms, not just Steam and not just PC. Estimates can be made about console populations using the data from the yearly usage stats, like here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/10my1kh/2022_platform_playtime_distribution/ It puts consoles as a combined ~30-35% of the total CCU. So if Steam is 45k right now, consoles combined should bring that up to about 60k *if you're being generous. warframe.market has 29k using their site right now. That's half! 20k is a slow day. I recall it being about 37k at one point the other week. "Half isn't much", sure. 🙄 Edited May 28 by PublikDomain 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trst Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 51 minutes ago, PublikDomain said: Please be specific if you're going to nitpick about this specificity. It's so silly for people to be arguing over the definition of this at this point. A "literal" auction house, as in the system that every other game which calls it an AH uses, is literally an automated trade system. You open a listing interface where you select the item you want to sell, define a price (or starting bid if it supports literal auctions), then define a listing period. After that said item is put onto the "Auction House" where anyone else can then search up the item they want and see every listing of said item. At which point a player just needs to select the listing they want to buy, click the buy button, then the cost is deducted from their account and the player receives said item while the seller automatically receives their cut of the transaction (or they need to open the AH and click a "claim" button). It's literally a system that automates the trading process with the only required inputs being the process of listing and the process of selecting what you want to purchase. Since WFmarket requires manual interaction at every stage it's not an AH system. Also just to throw my 2 cents in again implementing the entirety of WFmarket as is into the actual game wouldn't be as catastrophic as an actual Auction House system would be. Since it's a system we've literally had from day one here on the Forums thus putting it in-game would just make it impossible for players to be ignorant of the option. As well retaining the inconvenience stops bottoming out from being an issue. A "literal" AH however would be a disaster primarily due to the massive imbalance we have between supply and demand with supplies being effectively infinite while demand is always finite. And even if DE did everything necessary to stop it from being a disaster, like price fixing and heavily restricted listings, that then runs into the issue of how the community will endlessly demand better access/options with the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PublikDomain Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 (edited) 53 minutes ago, trst said: A "literal" auction house, as in the system that every other game which calls it an AH uses, is literally an automated trade system. You open a listing interface where you select the item you want to sell, define a price (or starting bid if it supports literal auctions), then define a listing period. After that said item is put onto the "Auction House" where anyone else can then search up the item they want and see every listing of said item. At which point a player just needs to select the listing they want to buy, click the buy button, then the cost is deducted from their account and the player receives said item while the seller automatically receives their cut of the transaction (or they need to open the AH and click a "claim" button). The parts I've put in bold is why I ask. Is every one of those things absolutely required for something to be a "literal" auction house? Because here you've clearly defined some optional features. Are those the only things that are allowed to be optional? Why can't other parts be optional? Most examples I'm familiar with have instant buyouts and a bidding system. Some games only have instant buyouts. Is this still an auction house, even though no auctioning has occurred? If a game implemented an automated trade system that only supported bidding, would that no longer be a "literal" auction house? Even though it would only allow for literal auctions? Some games have defined listing periods. Some I'm sure don't. Would that not be an auction house anymore? Some games deliver items instantly to your inventory. Some deliver it in the auction house interface. Some deliver it to a mailbox you have to walk over and open. Are all of these still auction houses? The latter are the same kind of manual interactions you later suggest disqualifies warframe.market. If a game implemented an automated trade system where you click the buy button, and it gives you a ticket you then have to walk over and put in the deposit box with your payment, would that not be an auction house anymore just because it doesn't immediately deduct your currency? Could a game with physicalized loot like Rust have an auction house? Even though the items being bought and sold would need to be physically moved around? And compare what you've outlined to warframe.market: Quote You open a listing interface where you select the item you want to sell, define a price (or starting bid if it supports literal auctions), then define a listing period. After that said item is put onto the "Auction House" where anyone else can then search up the item they want and see every listing of said item. At which point a player just needs to select the listing they want to buy, click the buy button, then paste the automated message into chat. The cost is deducted from their account and the player receives said item while the seller automatically receives their cut of the transaction (or they need to once they open the AH trade window and click a "claim" some buttons). The only difference here is that there's no listing period (an optional feature) and that there's one manual step to finish the trade - since this is a player-run site that isn't allowed to interface directly to the game and be fully automated. They've automated the process as much as they're allowed to. Why is this still not an auction house? So maybe it's more useful to just say that an "auction house" is simply a place for players to trade things? Because then the little minutia and optional mechanics and specific implementations don't matter. Some games do it some way, others do it another way. Different games will implement things differently to fit their specific requirements and that's normal. They're all still auction houses filling the exact same role of facilitating trade. Edited May 28 by PublikDomain 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECCHOSIERRA Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 On 2024-05-26 at 9:49 AM, SneakyErvin said: But Sierra is talking about an actual AH, not something else. We can make up several different other solutions that might work, but we arent talking AH then or an AH that would work. It is also not a "hyper-specific" concept. It is just an auction house that does what you expect from an auction house, no matter if it is in a game or real life. Which is what people ask for when they ask for an AH and will keep doing until they have an AH. He is practically pointing out the flaws and risks in the automation process of an AH. Aslong as some part of it is automated and achievable while offline, it will have a huge influx of users that will result in prices on common items (practically everything in WF) crashing. Even if instant buyout and instant delivery wasnt a thing, the part of simply being able to list items to be sold while you are offline would be enough to cripple trading. Since it would open trading up for everyone with only the need to check on trades when they are online in order to accept buy orders and refresh their stock. Even if they'd just copy/paste warframe.market and set it up for the game there would be a huge risk for it crashing the market of common items. Since it would no longer be a third party site you need to use in connection to the game, it would be a system within the game. No need for third party accounts and so on either, meaning more would use it to make sales. You even brought up the number of users for warframe.market, which is really small considering the total playerbase of the game. I can only go to myself as an example. If I had the warframe.market in the game I would have no problem undercutting others since it would make sure I'd use up all my trades daily instead of barely bothering at all with selling things as it is now. This would apply to many others aswell, just as it does in MMOs. Exactly. The specifics of the "auction house" dont even matter that much. And this is why i have such disdain when people say things like "okay but what if we have auction house BUT we do X" On 2024-05-26 at 11:36 AM, PublikDomain said: And I'm saying that "an actual AH" is not necessary. Trade can be improved in other ways without implementing the specific set of features you think makes "an actual AH". If the argument is "I can't handle competition", well, 🤷♀️. The game doesn't need to be held back in the stone ages just to protect the handful of people scalping on trade chat. Do me a favor: go ingame right now and go to trade chat. It lists every person participating. Count them. Now compare that to warframe.market. Trade chat is already minuscule and has been for years. Warframe.market has been the prime mover for the ingame economy for a very long time now and it's fine. You can do all the same undercutting over there, too, and while it happens sometimes the market as a whole stays quite stable. For example the Nova and Saryn sets I shared which have both retained (or gained) value over the last 3 months. The argument isnt "i cant handle competition" the argument is what the mass influx of items for sale at any given time would do to the in game economy. This straw man is bogus on two levels, First. I can handle that just fine. I've bought almost every prime access (or at least prime accessories) that exists. Im perfectly happy to support DE financially because I love the game. If my 1350 or 2600 plat or whatever the hek i paid for were to suddenly go alot farther in trade chat I PERSONALLY would live. But not everyone can afford to do that and it would be a rude awakening for THEM when they have to put in 3 or 4 or more times as much grind just to get enough plat for something like slots, colors, skins, etc. So dont think this is about "what i can handle". Second, this isnt like I'm suggesting there shouldn't be any degree of competition whatsoever. Moving on. Your point about auction house vs trade chat vs wf market actually supports my argument. Why do you think there are so many more posts on wf market then there are in game? Because you can just set it and forget about it. It requires no effort or investment on your part once youve made the listing. But you still have to actually be online to show up in a dojo to make a trade, at least. Go in game and count the people in trade chat, then go count the number of people active on wf market, then imagine how much higher the second number would be if it was something in game they didnt have to go to a third party website to sign up for but was integrated into the game itself, then imagine everyone trying to sell everything they can at the same time. On 2024-05-27 at 9:21 AM, _Anise_ said: or DE can just set minimum prices based on items historic average worth? Basic economics still apply. That wouldnt work well either. I mean lets say just for the sake of argument a grendel prime set was locked at a minimum of 100p. That doesnt mean that theres gonna be someone willing to buy it from you. Youd likely just end up with a whole bunch of them listed and only a small chance someone picks yours out of the ones available. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyErvin Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 (edited) 23 hours ago, PublikDomain said: Please be specific if you're going to nitpick about this specificity. Already went over that in the post you quoted aswell as earlier. 23 hours ago, PublikDomain said: Estimates can be made about console populations using the data from the yearly usage stats, like here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/10my1kh/2022_platform_playtime_distribution/ It puts consoles as a combined ~30-35% of the total CCU. So if Steam is 45k right now, consoles combined should bring that up to about 60k *if you're being generous. warframe.market has 29k using their site right now. That's half! 20k is a slow day. I recall it being about 37k at one point the other week. "Half isn't much", sure. 🙄 But it isnt half, since the whole piece of PC that is not the Steam version isnt included. Which like with all games that have a SA launcher, makes up a large portion of the playerbase aswell. And 50% would be low when you look at games with trading, where practically everyone uses the system from the earliest levels and onward. Which would likely be even higher in WF since people can trade their way to premium currency and not just in-game currency. 21 hours ago, PublikDomain said: The parts I've put in bold is why I ask. Is every one of those things absolutely required for something to be a "literal" auction house? Because here you've clearly defined some optional features. Are those the only things that are allowed to be optional? Why can't other parts be optional? Those are optional based on what an Auction House is and what is expected from one. 21 hours ago, PublikDomain said: Most examples I'm familiar with have instant buyouts and a bidding system. Some games only have instant buyouts. Is this still an auction house, even though no auctioning has occurred? Both are auction house systems rooted in the real life version of one. You can have starting bids (reservation price), buyouts or bidding in different combinations, from either one on their own or all 3 combined. 21 hours ago, PublikDomain said: Some games have defined listing periods. Some I'm sure don't. Would that not be an auction house anymore? It would still be an AH, but it would be unlikey a system doesnt have a listing period, unless it is fully based on buyouts. Since well, in all other cases you'd have bidding, and bidding would quite obviously need to end at some point, which is the purpose of the listing period. Giving people information on how long the item is available. 21 hours ago, PublikDomain said: Some games deliver items instantly to your inventory. Some deliver it in the auction house interface. Some deliver it to a mailbox you have to walk over and open. Are all of these still auction houses? The latter are the same kind of manual interactions you later suggest disqualifies warframe.market. Quite obviously they are since they automate the trade process. And no, they arent the same as warframe.market, because warframe.market lacks several different steps of automation. Like requiring people to be online to trade goods, which is done when the seller is fully offline or afk with an AH, It also requires people to interact with other players to seal the deal, you need to invite people, talk to them, face haggling, then physically exchange the goods as per agreement in the deal you just went through several processes to make. With an AH you go to the NPC, upload your items you wanna trade for the prices you want, then you just wait until you get a message or similar that the items are sold or not, so you can go and refresh the listing period if you want, or collect your earnings. Saying market.warframe is an AH is like saying the add board in your local supermarket is an auction house. 21 hours ago, PublikDomain said: If a game implemented an automated trade system where you click the buy button, and it gives you a ticket you then have to walk over and put in the deposit box with your payment, would that not be an auction house anymore just because it doesn't immediately deduct your currency? That would no longer be an AH since the ticket would mean the buyer could tardy after "winning" the auction, meaning they'd suddenly hold the item hostage until they bother to go and pay up. An AH both in games and real life automate that process so both the seller and buyer get what they want when they should without either being able to drag out the process. Hence why ghost bidding is illegal in real and there are no payment plans etc. You bid on something, then you pay in full some the moment the auction is over. 21 hours ago, PublikDomain said: Could a game with physicalized loot like Rust have an auction house? Even though the items being bought and sold would need to be physically moved around? Of course it could. Why do you think physicalized loot would be an issue? It would just mean the auctioneer would need to be designed properly to be able to hold those items for sale. You physically move around items in all games pretty much when you have an AH. You "physically" hand it over to an NPC at which point it is no longer in your possession, much like how when you "physically" take an item from your inventory and drop it in a stash. D3 had very physicalized loot since you could either drop it on the ground for others to grab in person to person trades or you could hand it over to an AH. 21 hours ago, PublikDomain said: The only difference here is that there's no listing period (an optional feature) and that there's one manual step to finish the trade - since this is a player-run site that isn't allowed to interface directly to the game and be fully automated. They've automated the process as much as they're allowed to. Why is this still not an auction house? So maybe it's more useful to just say that an "auction house" is simply a place for players to trade things? Because then the little minutia and optional mechanics and specific implementations don't matter. Some games do it some way, others do it another way. Different games will implement things differently to fit their specific requirements and that's normal. They're all still auction houses filling the exact same role of facilitating trade. Uhm "one manual step"? And you say "automated the process as much as they are allowed" while then asking "Why is this still not an auction house?". It seem you really have a hard time grasping how much automation warframe.market lacks compared to an AH. And no an AH isnt simply a place to trade. Again, do you think the add board in your local supermarket is the same as an auction firm? And no, all trade systems are not auction houses in games, since just because they facilitate trading, it doesnt mean the trading is done as an auction house. Personal vendors in DAoC, SWG and FFXIV were not auction houses, but they bloody well enabled and facilitated trading with slight automation. The warframe.market. All parties are required to be online for it to work. 1. Upload sale/buy order. 2. Contact player. 3. Try to make a deal with the player. Additionally face potential haggling. 4. Repeat 3 if no deal is made. 5. Invite player. 6. Travel to Dojo/Bazaar. 7. Open Trade. 8. Insert item(s) or plat. 9. Seller delists item on warframe.market. Auction House. Online, offline, who cares? 1a. Upload item(s), which also creates your sales listing(s) in the process. 1b. Buy item you are after, which also removes the sales listing(s) in the process and pays the seller. 2. Go to AH or mailbox to collect either the item you purchased or the currency you recieved from a sale. That is two steps in order to achieve everything 9 steps take for the market. And that is if the game has a physical AH location or mailbox. Otherwise you are practically grabbing the items right where you stand. Edited May 29 by SneakyErvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PublikDomain Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 18 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said: Exactly. The specifics of the "auction house" dont even matter that much. They seem to matter quite a lot here? A lot of you seem to be getting very hung up on these specific mechanics and features and what horrible things they would supposedly lead to, while others are stuck on what makes something a "real" auction house and such. 18 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said: The argument isnt "i cant handle competition" the argument is what the mass influx of items for sale at any given time would do to the in game economy. And yet: warframe.market has already increased the accessibility of goods for sale by a significant amount in the exact same way and the ingame economy is still fine. The game already has systems that consume excess supply like Baro, as well as built-in limitations to prevent the influx of excess supply like trade limits. As I've said before, simple answers already exist to these supposed problems - if they're actually a problem at all. 19 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said: But not everyone can afford to do that and it would be a rude awakening for THEM when they have to put in 3 or 4 or more times as much grind just to get enough plat for something like slots, colors, skins, etc. Well, for comparison, many years ago I sold an Ember Prime set for something like 1,300p. Some poor idiot gave me $60 USD worth of plat to buy her. Are $60 Warframes good for THEM? I hopped on Trade Chat just now and what did I find? Stuff like this: Protea goes for 95 right now on warframe.market! Mesa goes for 85. Limbo 110. Hydroid 105. Nezha 70. Wukong 60. Oberon 85. Gauss is only 45-50! Noticing a pattern? Anyone that buys from these people is getting ripped off, paying double or almost triple in some cases. Is that good for THEM? And this can only happen because trade chat is an information black hole where it's near impossible for people to stay informed. So if you're actually concerned for the little guy, maybe defending the current scalpers paradise isn't the best way to show it? The best thing for the little guy right now is getting on warframe.market and getting informed about what things are worth. More information, not defending having less. 18 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said: Why do you think there are so many more posts on wf market then there are in game? Because you can just set it and forget about it. It requires no effort or investment on your part once youve made the listing. But you still have to actually be online to show up in a dojo to make a trade, at least. Go in game and count the people in trade chat, then go count the number of people active on wf market, then imagine how much higher the second number would be if it was something in game they didnt have to go to a third party website to sign up for but was integrated into the game itself, then imagine everyone trying to sell everything they can at the same time. I don't see why the people already trading on warframe.market doing the same things they're doing now but in a different place would matter much. Tens of thousands of players are already engaging in trade at any given moment, whether that's through warframe.market or the few hundred scalping on trade chat. The amount of trade happening ingame is already massive. Would additional people who currently don't trade at all now begin to trade? Sure! But that's just another thing that's already happening on warframe.market anyways. Just last year I remember being impressed by the market having 15k online, now it's double! Has the market crashed yet with twice as many people using that service? Nope. It's just fear. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PublikDomain Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 (edited) 7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said: But it isnt half, since the whole piece of PC that is not the Steam version isnt included. Which like with all games that have a SA launcher, makes up a large portion of the playerbase aswell. And 50% would be low when you look at games with trading, where practically everyone uses the system from the earliest levels and onward. Which would likely be even higher in WF since people can trade their way to premium currency and not just in-game currency. Ok, pick your number then. warframe.market has about 30k online right now and this covers all platforms. Even if you think there are 60k shadow players online right now who aren't affiliated with any platform, that'd still be 1 in 4. That's still a lot of people. And again, that's not just people who trade once in a while. That's people actively trading now. Not the "practically everyone" who makes uses of the trade board every once in a while in whatever unnamed game you're referencing, people currently browsing and trading. There are more people browsing this one fan site than there are on entire platforms! 7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said: Those are optional based on what an Auction House is and what is expected from one. Which is why you need to be specific. Which features are mandatory, and which are optional? And if a game doesn't allow for some, either by design or preference or style or for whatever reason, why can't its version of what an Auction House is be based on what it expects from one? 7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said: Both are auction house systems rooted in the real life version of one. You can have starting bids (reservation price), buyouts or bidding in different combinations, from either one on their own or all 3 combined. Like these? 🤔🤔🤔 7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said: And no, they arent the same as warframe.market, because warframe.market lacks several different steps of automation. "Oh but warframe.market doesn't automate everything". Buddy they aren't allowed to! They've automated everything they can. They would absolutely automate more if they could. Like here: 7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said: 1. Upload sale/buy order. 2. Contact player. 3. Try to make a deal with the player. Additionally face potential haggling. 4. Repeat 3 if no deal is made. 5. Invite player. 6. Travel to Dojo/Bazaar. 7. Open Trade. 8. Insert item(s) or plat. 9. Seller delists item on warframe.market. Step 1 and 9 are the only ones warframe.market is involved in, and they automate all of it. Once your buy/sale order is "uploaded", it's up on the Orders page and you don't have to lift a finger. No hawking wares into chat, no micromanaging, no nothing. Just sit and wait. And when you're done with the sale, you just click the "sold" button and the site automates decrements your quantity for sale and delists the item if you have none left. And on your auction house's steps? 7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said: Auction House. Online, offline, who cares? 1a. Upload item(s), which also creates your sales listing(s) in the process. 1b. Buy item you are after, which also removes the sales listing(s) in the process and pays the seller. 2. Go to AH or mailbox to collect either the item you purchased or the currency you recieved from a sale. Aw golly #*!%in' gee it's the same steps 1 and 9 you find on warframe.market! Edited May 29 by PublikDomain 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyErvin Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 15 hours ago, PublikDomain said: Ok, pick your number then. warframe.market has about 30k online right now and this covers all platforms. Even if you think there are 60k shadow players online right now who aren't affiliated with any platform, that'd still be 1 in 4. That's still a lot of people. And again, that's not just people who trade once in a while. That's people actively trading now. Not the "practically everyone" who makes uses of the trade board every once in a while in whatever unnamed game you're referencing, people currently browsing and trading. There are more people browsing this one fan site than there are on entire platforms! It isnt alot. You fail to realize that this is in comparison to what an automated system or more accessible system would do. So simply the warframe.market cannot give an indication of how it would look if an AH was added or even if warframe.market got implemented into the game. Lets give you a scope of things. With those 30k trades you are looking at 900,000 items at most. Where only one can be dealt with at a time for instance. Compared to early D3 when it had an AH and somewhere around 50k concurrent players it is practically a drop in the ocean and what I'd see as a largely inactive trade community. Since in D3 you had millions upon millions upon millions of items available at once due to how easily accessible it was for everyone. Which was extremely unhealthy for the game, hence why it was eventually removed. Because the automation of an AH doesnt work in a game where every single member of the community competes for sales at the same time. We are looking at millions of players competing over the same market if we were to add an AH to WF. While other games have server or cluster economies in order to make them work and limit the supply and demand to healthier levels. Servers or clusters that make up a couple of 100k players in total for competition. Which is why I said that the warframe.market could work if implemented, but an AH wouldnt since that would result in everyone trading with everyone all at once no matter if online or offline. So an AH in WF would not be a good idea for anyone. 15 hours ago, PublikDomain said: Which is why you need to be specific. Which features are mandatory, and which are optional? And if a game doesn't allow for some, either by design or preference or style or for whatever reason, why can't its version of what an Auction House is be based on what it expects from one? That was already covered in the rest of my post. 15 hours ago, PublikDomain said: Like these? No lol, that is an individual player holding a personal auction which is not regulated or verified by an auctioneer. In most cases it would likely be done to inflate prices through fake bidding, which is something that wouldnt work with an AH system. What you describe with the Nukor is like a second hand sales site, where people may use bidding between buyers while either being honest or lying through their teeth. As opposed to an auction site that handles the trade so no one can inflate and lie about bids and bidders. 15 hours ago, PublikDomain said: "Oh but warframe.market doesn't automate everything". Buddy they aren't allowed to! They've automated everything they can. They would absolutely automate more if they could. Like here: Again stoping using "quotes" since you put words into peoples mouth when you do when you arent actually quoting in your "quotes". No one said it must automate everything, it is that warframe.market automates practically nothing. It shows what it for sale without you having to yell it out in trade, that is the automated process. Everything else is manual. 15 hours ago, PublikDomain said: Step 1 and 9 are the only ones warframe.market is involved in, and they automate all of it. Once your buy/sale order is "uploaded", it's up on the Orders page and you don't have to lift a finger. No hawking wares into chat, no micromanaging, no nothing. Just sit and wait. And when you're done with the sale, you just click the "sold" button and the site automates decrements your quantity for sale and delists the item if you have none left. And on your auction house's steps? No they dont automate all of it. Those are the 9 manual interactions you must make with the warframe.market. Creating a listing is a manual interaction, clicking the "sold" button is a manual interaction. 15 hours ago, PublikDomain said: Aw golly #*!%in' gee it's the same steps 1 and 9 you find on warframe.market! No lol, not the same. You upload the item on an AH, as in the items goes from you to the AH as you list the item. Meaning from there on it passes automatically to whomever purchses it without you needing to be involved. You practically never interact with step 2-9 with an AH. So no you do not upload the item to warframe.market, it is still physically in your possession and needs to manually change hands by the two players meeting up. On warframe.market you add a listing, like that A4 paper in the store with little flaps at the bottom with your contact info that people can take if they wanna contact you. And 1b also doesnt apply to warframe.market, since the seller needs to remove the listing after the item has been sold, he has to do this manually by interacting with the site again. Step 2-9 automatically solves this in an AH system. The idea of what makes an AH an AH is that a middle man handles everything after you have handed the items to them. And warframe.market does not work as any form of middle man, it works like an add page online, in the store or in the papers. The one automated part is that you dont have to actively yell out about what you wanna sell, everything else is manually done by direct interaction between seller and buyer. Hence why there are 9 manual interactions with warframe.market and only up to two with an AH. Not to mention that you dont have to be online in order to make a sale either if using an AH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PublikDomain Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 (edited) 6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said: While other games have server or cluster economies in order to make them work and limit the supply and demand to healthier levels. Why can't Warframe manage its supply and demand if others can? In fact, it already does! Here we have daily trade limits, trade taxes, and resource sinks like Baro to limit the supply and demand to healthier levels. Others in this thread have suggested a plat tax for using an AH. Manual steps like having to visit Maroo to claim items or list trades, or simply not allowing instant buyouts could keep the pace slower if that's even necessary. 🤷♀️ 6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said: It shows what it for sale without you having to yell it out in trade, that is the automated process. Everything else is manual. Yes. That is the automated part of the process. And why pray tell do you think the remaining manual parts are not automated? I will give you the hint again: They aren't allowed to automate those parts. 6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said: which is not regulated or verified by an auctioneer. lol, so now an "actual" auction house needs an auctioneer? 6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said: Creating a listing is a manual interaction, clicking the "sold" button is a manual interaction. And how is this different from a n"actual" auction house? Don't you still have to manually pick the items you want to sell and manually type in the price? And manually click on buttons to place bids or buyouts and sometimes claim your items? Or do the "actual" auction houses you're thinking of read minds and create listings and bids for you without any input? Edited May 30 by PublikDomain 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jan_Pike Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 On 2024-05-17 at 7:29 AM, PaladinMaximus1 said: Along with that, maybe a Tenno auction house to post items for sell/trade? tbh the last thing that this game needs is a GE/AH. there's solid argument to show that those mechanics wrecked games like WoW and Runescape. trading taking some degree of skill, patience, and presence i think is better for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 On 2024-05-29 at 3:41 PM, PublikDomain said: They seem to matter quite a lot here? A lot of you seem to be getting very hung up on these specific mechanics and features and what horrible things they would supposedly lead to, while others are stuck on what makes something a "real" auction house and such. And yet: warframe.market has already increased the accessibility of goods for sale by a significant amount in the exact same way and the ingame economy is still fine. The game already has systems that consume excess supply like Baro, as well as built-in limitations to prevent the influx of excess supply like trade limits. As I've said before, simple answers already exist to these supposed problems - if they're actually a problem at all. Well, for comparison, many years ago I sold an Ember Prime set for something like 1,300p. Some poor idiot gave me $60 USD worth of plat to buy her. Are $60 Warframes good for THEM? I hopped on Trade Chat just now and what did I find? Stuff like this: Protea goes for 95 right now on warframe.market! Mesa goes for 85. Limbo 110. Hydroid 105. Nezha 70. Wukong 60. Oberon 85. Gauss is only 45-50! Noticing a pattern? Anyone that buys from these people is getting ripped off, paying double or almost triple in some cases. Is that good for THEM? And this can only happen because trade chat is an information black hole where it's near impossible for people to stay informed. So if you're actually concerned for the little guy, maybe defending the current scalpers paradise isn't the best way to show it? The best thing for the little guy right now is getting on warframe.market and getting informed about what things are worth. More information, not defending having less. I don't see why the people already trading on warframe.market doing the same things they're doing now but in a different place would matter much. Tens of thousands of players are already engaging in trade at any given moment, whether that's through warframe.market or the few hundred scalping on trade chat. The amount of trade happening ingame is already massive. Would additional people who currently don't trade at all now begin to trade? Sure! But that's just another thing that's already happening on warframe.market anyways. Just last year I remember being impressed by the market having 15k online, now it's double! Has the market crashed yet with twice as many people using that service? Nope. It's just fear. Apples and oranges. "Warframe market already exists therefore auction house should exist" is like saying "the speed limit on highways is already 70 miles per hour so it should be 700 miles per hour". Look. Dude. I dont know how to make this any simpler. How many protea sets do you think exist in the game sitting in player inventories right now? I have no idea. And you have no idea. But just for S#&$s and giggles lets pick a number and say "100". (I dont care if its 100 or 1000 or 10000 that isnt the point). Fact of the matter is only a subset of that number is "actively buyable" at any given time. People have to actually be online. People have to actually trade. You cant just put stuff in inventory for sale in an "auction house" or a list or whatever you wanna call it and then go to sleep, or go to work, or go run missions and have stuff magically turn into plat. You have to actually put in a little time and effort and you have to actually be online to do it. Purely for S#&$s and giggles, lets say the availability % of protea sets at any given time is 10%. Maybe 10% of all the protea sets that exist are actually "buyable" at any given time. The rest are people who are either offline or busy. Maybe its more, maybe its less, again, not the point. Point is, if you add offline trading to the game, add an auction house, whatever, youre raising that % by *ALOT*. If the % goes from 10% to 100% thats functionally a 10x increase in "supply". "But we could nerf the auction house somehow so it wouldnt be like 100% of people can list 100% of their entire inventory 100% of the time." Still gonna increase that % significantly. "But the wf market userbase increased" BRUH. 100% of the playerbase could all sign up for wf tomorrow and that wouldnt be the same situation as offline trading or auction house at all because even then youd have to actually make the time and effort investment to come online and meet me in a dojo as opposed to just farting everything into a list. Supply and demand is a basic economic principle that you cant just wish away dude. "For comparison many years ago i sold ember for 1300p". Many years ago unvaulting wasnt a thing the way it is now and there was a period of time where people didnt know if a frame was going to be unvaulted AT ALL, or if so, when it would happen. Then you procede to go on some mental gymnastics. You point out protea is whatever now compared to that ember sale and ignore every difference possible. What is resurgance. What is unvaulting. What is this false dichotomy that says we either have scalpers selling primes for 1300p or we have auction house. We either have a "scalpers paradise" or we have auction house. "But muh little guy". What about the guy that doesnt have a lot of disposable income to spend actual MONEY on platinum and uses trade chat to make platinum for things like weapon slots? Theyd have to grind alot harder. Thats the point. Thats the issue. If everything in the game was tradeable by players and set by "free market" pricing than maybe it would even out. But that aint the case. "But trade chat and auction house prices are different oh no!" What is haggling. And i mean wow, Im shocked to hear that if you get an offer from somewhere and shop around you might get a better offer. Thats completely shocking to me. Can you imagine if real life worked that way? If sometimes a thing was cheaper at target than walmart or amazon than home depot or something like that? Wouldnt that be wild? "Lets point out how wf market pricing works and then pretend auction house wouldnt be the same thing but amplified". What youre seeing is the difference between convenience level. If i want to sell a protea set on wf market i might as well not bother at all unless its at the very lowest price out of all of them. Because every protea set is identical. But not everyone can be arsed to shop around wf market before every purchase. Yes, you can potentially find better prices (as a buyer) but shopping around for it and hoping someone doesnt beat you to it etc is less convenient. Yes, buying from tc is more convenient but it MAY be more expensive. Yes, selling something on wf market might be more convenient but you are more than likely not going to get the best price. Yes, selling something in tc might get you more plat but its not gonna be as convenient. This isnt some evil satanic shenanigans this is basic economics. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 21 hours ago, SneakyErvin said: It isnt alot. You fail to realize that this is in comparison to what an automated system or more accessible system would do. So simply the warframe.market cannot give an indication of how it would look if an AH was added or even if warframe.market got implemented into the game. Lets give you a scope of things. With those 30k trades you are looking at 900,000 items at most. Where only one can be dealt with at a time for instance. Compared to early D3 when it had an AH and somewhere around 50k concurrent players it is practically a drop in the ocean and what I'd see as a largely inactive trade community. Since in D3 you had millions upon millions upon millions of items available at once due to how easily accessible it was for everyone. Which was extremely unhealthy for the game, hence why it was eventually removed. Because the automation of an AH doesnt work in a game where every single member of the community competes for sales at the same time. We are looking at millions of players competing over the same market if we were to add an AH to WF. While other games have server or cluster economies in order to make them work and limit the supply and demand to healthier levels. Servers or clusters that make up a couple of 100k players in total for competition. Which is why I said that the warframe.market could work if implemented, but an AH wouldnt since that would result in everyone trading with everyone all at once no matter if online or offline. So an AH in WF would not be a good idea for anyone. That was already covered in the rest of my post. No lol, that is an individual player holding a personal auction which is not regulated or verified by an auctioneer. In most cases it would likely be done to inflate prices through fake bidding, which is something that wouldnt work with an AH system. What you describe with the Nukor is like a second hand sales site, where people may use bidding between buyers while either being honest or lying through their teeth. As opposed to an auction site that handles the trade so no one can inflate and lie about bids and bidders. Again stoping using "quotes" since you put words into peoples mouth when you do when you arent actually quoting in your "quotes". No one said it must automate everything, it is that warframe.market automates practically nothing. It shows what it for sale without you having to yell it out in trade, that is the automated process. Everything else is manual. No they dont automate all of it. Those are the 9 manual interactions you must make with the warframe.market. Creating a listing is a manual interaction, clicking the "sold" button is a manual interaction. No lol, not the same. You upload the item on an AH, as in the items goes from you to the AH as you list the item. Meaning from there on it passes automatically to whomever purchses it without you needing to be involved. You practically never interact with step 2-9 with an AH. So no you do not upload the item to warframe.market, it is still physically in your possession and needs to manually change hands by the two players meeting up. On warframe.market you add a listing, like that A4 paper in the store with little flaps at the bottom with your contact info that people can take if they wanna contact you. And 1b also doesnt apply to warframe.market, since the seller needs to remove the listing after the item has been sold, he has to do this manually by interacting with the site again. Step 2-9 automatically solves this in an AH system. The idea of what makes an AH an AH is that a middle man handles everything after you have handed the items to them. And warframe.market does not work as any form of middle man, it works like an add page online, in the store or in the papers. The one automated part is that you dont have to actively yell out about what you wanna sell, everything else is manually done by direct interaction between seller and buyer. Hence why there are 9 manual interactions with warframe.market and only up to two with an AH. Not to mention that you dont have to be online in order to make a sale either if using an AH. I think its funny that in most games with premium currency said premium currency is not tradeable period and the only way to get it is to whip out a credit or debit card. I think its exceedingly generous that you can "earn" premium currency for free in this game period. Without having to do that. But it takes some degree of effort. "I wish i could just put everything in my inventory for sale and then go to sleep and come back and poof i have FREE PLATINUM". Every single time this idea comes up at least one person doesnt care about logic or reason or what anyone else says thats what they want so they'll spin in circles until the thermal heat death of the universe to defend that idea. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyErvin Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 57 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said: I think its funny that in most games with premium currency said premium currency is not tradeable period and the only way to get it is to whip out a credit or debit card. I think its exceedingly generous that you can "earn" premium currency for free in this game period. Without having to do that. But it takes some degree of effort. "I wish i could just put everything in my inventory for sale and then go to sleep and come back and poof i have FREE PLATINUM". Every single time this idea comes up at least one person doesnt care about logic or reason or what anyone else says thats what they want so they'll spin in circles until the thermal heat death of the universe to defend that idea. Yeah, people fail to realize it is a premium currency shifting hands and not just regular in-game currency. The passive nature of AHs in other games already see alot of people trading just because it is easy and automated, earning them passive income by practically doing nothing, no matter how common the items are they sell. In WF when a premium currency is the currency being traded, everyone and their mother would trade if the ease of use in automation becomes a thing. 19 hours ago, PublikDomain said: Why can't Warframe manage its supply and demand if others can? In fact, it already does! Here we have daily trade limits, trade taxes, and resource sinks like Baro to limit the supply and demand to healthier levels. Others in this thread have suggested a plat tax for using an AH. Manual steps like having to visit Maroo to claim items or list trades, or simply not allowing instant buyouts could keep the pace slower if that's even necessary. Because first off it deals with the whole community trading at once, millions of players instead of thousands per "economy". Secondly, most items in WF are common, we practically have nothing that is rare. The things you think would work because "we have" them already are a part of all those other games aswell. And lol, visiting Maroo would not limit anything. Not allowing instant buyouts wouldnt change anything either, since it would still all be automated so people can just list their items and forget about it until the next day when they check what has sold. I mean you go "we have trade limits" then at the same time think that not allowing instant buyouts would do anything? There is already a limit for the day, so what the #*!% do I care if someone buys it instantly or is forced to bid when I cant put up new items until tomorrow anyways? Do you even think before writing down your ideas? 19 hours ago, PublikDomain said: Yes. That is the automated part of the process. And why pray tell do you think the remaining manual parts are not automated? I will give you the hint again: They aren't allowed to automate those parts. Why you think them being allowed or not matters regarding if warframe.market is an AH or not is still a thing I'm trying to wrap my head around. I have no idea why you have brought this up several times as if it matters one bit. 19 hours ago, PublikDomain said: lol, so now an "actual" auction house needs an auctioneer? The auction house itself is the auctioneer I refer to. A third party, in this case an "A.I" that handles all trades so they are done correctly, with few risks of abuse. Like making it impossible to inflate your own trades with fake bids etc. As in real life, if I decide to sell an old car I can either go to the auction and have an auctioneer sell it properly, or if I'm shady I can sell it on my own and claim to a buyer I already have a higher bidder etc. 19 hours ago, PublikDomain said: And how is this different from a n"actual" auction house? Don't you still have to manually pick the items you want to sell and manually type in the price? And manually click on buttons to place bids or buyouts and sometimes claim your items? Or do the "actual" auction houses you're thinking of read minds and create listings and bids for you without any input? Of course you do, but doing so in an AH system also takes care of all the other steps when you do that single manual interaction. How did you not get that concept from the 9 steps versus 1-2 steps of an AH? Let me give you a simple example. Say you trade 20 items through the warframe.market. That would result in atleast 180 manual interactions, more for every single time you arent making a deal with someone who contacts you. Now if you were to trade those same 20 items on an AH you would have 20-40 manual steps depending on the setup. Require individual collection of earnings per item sold = 40 interactions. Require collection of earnings but with them stacking = 21 interactions. Earnings added automatically to the account without the need to collect = 20 interactions, since you'd only need to interact 1 time per item when you make the actual listing. This is also if we only look at the amount of manual interactions you need to make to sell a single item, and ignore the time involved in the additional steps. Adding something to an AH takes you a couple of seconds, just as collecting, with something like warframe.market the time spent on selling increases beyond that since you need to talk to players, travel to trade and so on aswell before a single sale is made, and you can only complete 1 trade at a time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PublikDomain Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 5 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said: "Warframe market already exists therefore auction house should exist" is like saying "the speed limit on highways is already 70 miles per hour so it should be 700 miles per hour". Which you say because you're still stuck with this false belief that I'm talking about the same "actual" auction house you guys keep alluding to, even though I've told you explicitly over and over again that I'm not. A different system than the one you guys have such a fearful hate-boner for can serve as this game's version of an auction house. I also don't see why moving the speed limit sign from one part of the highway to another would change much. You really think there'd be a ten-fold increase in trade? That we'd suddenly have another 200,000-300,000 people standing around in a revamped Maroo's Bazaar looking at their trade windows? 5 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said: People have to actually be online. People have to actually trade. Which could be preserved through simple mechanics. You just gotta have a little imagination, and maybe take a second to stop and untwist your undies. Here, simple version. I'll make this really easy to follow: Spoiler You know how you can go to Maroo's Bazaar and pick items for sale? Well maybe you don't, who even uses that place? It looks like this: And then other people can see items you're selling: But this is hard to see, and it doesn't let anyone know what I'm looking to get. Is this guy selling a Latron Wraith set for a reasonable price? Do they want triple the going rate? Do they want to trade it for a Dera Vandal set? No one knows! Say I want to sell my Prime set for some plat. I already know what I want the other guy's side of the trade window to look like. So what if I could fill it in ahead of time? Then we could skip the awkward "price?" "offer?" back and forth and just get on with it. Anyone that agrees to this trade could just walk up and accept it. It could look like this: Now you can go to the Bazaar and see what people actually want for their trades! How convenient! But floating this over people's heads makes it hard to tell what's available... What if you could ask Maroo for the list of people trading here? 🤔 And hey, instead of hoping you landed on a hot instance maybe these bids could be shared for everyone in the Bazaar? How convenient! Now it's easier to tell what's for sale, just like you can already do on warframe.market! But I don't want to stand around in Maroo's Bazaar all day... I want to play! What if I could hand Maroo my items and pay her a little listing fee so she can show my offer for a few days and listen to bids for me? If I'm looking to buy something, when I find an offer I like I could then place a bid - or even counter-bid! Like yeah, I know they want plat and bananas, but maybe a bid with just plat would do? So I hand Maroo my plat and pay her the bidding fee and go on my merry way. Maybe I can see that someone else has already met the seller's request, but if I really want the item I can throw in a few Relics or something to make my bid that little bit more attractive! When I as the seller come back I can see if there are any bids I like. If there are, I can accept them. And since Maroo is already holding all of our items and we've all already agreed to the trade, she can wrap up the actual trade part for us! I'm already there, so Maroo could hand me my stuff right away, and the buyer and other failed bidders can get their stuff whenever they come back to visit. Now this probably isn't the exact specific "real" auction house y'all are so petrified of, but like I keep saying it doesn't need to be! You still need to be online to list items and place bids. Nowhere does this have to show offline players' offers - though it'd be pretty convenient if it did. You still have to travel somewhere to engage in trade. You still have to put items in the trade window and press OK. You also have to travel somewhere to pick up your items. There still aren't instant buyouts. It's not even considered! There's still room for haggling. It's even encouraged! This can all be hooked up with things like daily trade limits to slow it down even further. imagination Just a searchable, bidding-only actual auction house where there's some built-in back-and-forth and slowness. Would this cripple the economy? Throw us into the dark ages? You'd never make plat again? If warframe.market's massive proliferation hasn't, why would this? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PublikDomain Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said: Because first off it deals with the whole community trading at once, millions of players instead of thousands per "economy". You're conflating the whole community with the percentage of whole community currently engaging in trade. Only a portion of a community will be actively engaging in trade at any given time - and that's what warframe.market is showing. 20-30k are trading at any given time and far more than that make up the whole community you're talking about. Or do you really think D3 had "millions of players" all standing around at the same time looking at their auction house? No, most of them were off playing the game and doing other things. 5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said: Why you think them being allowed or not matters regarding if warframe.market is an AH or not is still a thing I'm trying to wrap my head around. I have no idea why you have brought this up several times as if it matters one bit. My question is - why do you? What does it matter that warframe.market can't fully automate every step? Everything else they do is automated. I have no idea why you take such an objection to me calling warframe.market an auction house when they hold literal auctions and have instant buyouts and automate listings and all the other things you think an auction house needs to have. The only thing they don't automate is the thing they can't automate. 5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said: The auction house itself is the auctioneer I refer to. And in this case warframe.market itself is the auctioneer. 🙄 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyErvin Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 (edited) 20 hours ago, PublikDomain said: You're conflating the whole community with the percentage of whole community currently engaging in trade. Only a portion of a community will be actively engaging in trade at any given time - and that's what warframe.market is showing. 20-30k are trading at any given time and far more than that make up the whole community you're talking about. Or do you really think D3 had "millions of players" all standing around at the same time looking at their auction house? No, most of them were off playing the game and doing other things. No. You just dont understand the point. If you have another game where the total population is the same as WF but runs on several servers, you are looking at only a part of the community per each individual economy (each server has its own economy). In WF everyone is the same economy (aside from switch). That a percentage of the whole community would engage in trading doesnt matter, since it is a percentage out of the total, not a percentage out of a part of the total. You also seem to still fail the concept of what an AH does with your D3 example. No, obviously no one was standing around trading, because they had access to an AH that handled it for them from the point they handed over the things to said AH. For instance, if I knew I had things to do I would spend a few minutes to load things up on the AH, do my things and then come back home to an AH filled with earnings to collect. A main difference aswell between D3 and WF was that D3 didnt have a majority of common items, so competition within trading was still possible, because the game relied heavily on RNG stat combinations and stat ranges. 20 hours ago, PublikDomain said: My question is - why do you? What does it matter that warframe.market can't fully automate every step? Everything else they do is automated. I have no idea why you take such an objection to me calling warframe.market an auction house when they hold literal auctions and have instant buyouts and automate listings and all the other things you think an auction house needs to have. The only thing they don't automate is the thing they can't automate. Heh "Everything else", you mean that one thing of making the things you wanna trade visible. My objection comes from the simple fact that warframe.market isnt an AH since it doesnt fullfil anything you'd expect from an AH. They do no literally hold auctions, players personally hold "auctions", not the market. There is nothing that is automated except for it showing your add. It is like the board in the store, where your kuva nukor listing (even with its bid demand) is just a personal add from someone wanting to sell something privately. Your answer to Sierra also shows how lacking your experience is with these systems. You go to lengths to describe a system and call it an AH when the system you describe already exsists in gaming and have done so for many many years and have their own defining names. What you describe is not an AH, you describe what would be called a trade broker/manager/agent. And you also manage to include horrible flaws as ideas. Like hostage taking of currency due to how your trade works, and with opportunities to cheat prices due to it all coming down to the player deciding which bid he wants to accept. Including the option to add more to a bid than the "buyout" in this case would demand. Which in itself goes straight against how an AH works. 20 hours ago, PublikDomain said: And in this case warframe.market itself is the auctioneer. 🙄 No quite clearly it isnt, since it doesnt work like an auctioneer or auction house. It does not sell things for you, it helps you manage an add or buy order to help you in your trading, nothing more. Edited June 1 by SneakyErvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Anise_ Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 (edited) On 2024-05-29 at 1:38 AM, ECCHOSIERRA said: That doesnt mean that theres gonna be someone willing to buy it from you. Youd likely just end up with a whole bunch of them listed and only a small chance someone picks yours out of the ones available. your critique can be applied to selling in the trade channels the difference is you have to spam "want to sell" *item* potentially for hour without getting anyone interested and you can't really post your entire inventory in chat Edited June 1 by _Anise_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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