cannonade mods for burst weapons and melee?

[Sevenus.]

the cannonade mod set is really interesting to negate one stat to the default in return for more damage and punch through. will we have something similar for burst/auto weapons and maybe even melee?

 

 

[Dreddeth]

Cannonade mods largely exist to even out dps between semi-auto weapons, which can only be fired so fast even when you mod for it, generally have smaller magazines and longer reload times, and often don't quite have the base damage to fully compensate for all that, and full-auto or burst weapons, which get more shots off in the same time out of a larger magazine with an equal or better reload speed, and therefore more chances to crit and proc status effects. This is also the rationale behind adding punchthrough on the same mod, which allows semi-auto weapons to damage multiple enemies more effectively.

I could honestly see them adding a Cannonade-like mod for Charge weapons, and maybe something in the same vein that turns Duplex triggers into semi-auto to address common complaints with that trigger type, but other trigger types just don't need it. Melee weapons don't really need it either, because they kind of already have it in how stance mods drastically effect the number of hits in a combo vs. the damage those hits do, and because the increasingly cracked heights to which attack speed can be boosted have already caused the "hold to melee" toggle to exist out of necessity.

Edit: Also, Corrupted mods like Creeping Bullseye/Critical Delay/Critical Deceleration exist.

Edited July 3 by Dreddeth

[quxier]

9 minutes ago, Dreddeth said:

Melee weapons don't really need it either, because they kind of already have it in how stance mods drastically effect the number of hits in a combo vs. the damage those hits do, and because the increasingly cracked heights to which attack speed can be boosted have already caused the "hold to melee" toggle to exist out of necessity.

Melee doesn't need "slow mod" because it can go fast...

Melee would like slow but hard hitter (or something else) so it would be good to NOT use speed mods (except for personal reasons like "I like to see animations" or "too much speed t eleport me")

[Dreddeth]

16 minutes ago, quxier said:

Melee doesn't need "slow mod" because it can go fast...

Melee would like slow but hard hitter (or something else) so it would be good to NOT use speed mods (except for personal reasons like "I like to see animations" or "too much speed t eleport me")

Fundamentally, the Cannonade mods exist to even out a disparity between trigger types. In the context of melee weapons, where there *isn't* any such disparity, there isn't any real justification beyond "But I personally think it would be cool." If you want -attack speed, either run some vaults for Spoiled Strike (which I admit they could probably tune up to make it at least competitive w/ Primed Pressure Point) or start rolling Rivens.

Melee has inbuilt incentive to maximize speed, though, because its dps is inextricably tied to elaborate full-body animations which have to be completed before moving on to the next animation in the combo, or doing anything else like bullet jumping or dodge rolling.

Edit: You could also just equip a slow but high damage stance mod like Crimson Dervish or Tempo Royale.

Edited July 3 by Dreddeth

[quxier]

6 minutes ago, Dreddeth said:

Fundamentally, the Cannonade mods exist to even out a disparity between trigger types

But there is no more disparity because you have auto mode (I don't remember option name). You going "slow" is your choice. Not sure how cannonade mods help that "slow vs fast" situation as I've not tested it.

7 minutes ago, Dreddeth said:

any real justification beyond "But I personally think it would be cool."

Then you haven't seen how melee can teleport you (confusing you) at high speed. Especially some buffs from frames. I'm running mostly no speed build and even those weapons are not great to play as they teleport around map.

 

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

11 minutes ago, quxier said:

Then you haven't seen how melee can teleport you (confusing you) at high speed. Especially some buffs from frames. I'm running mostly no speed build and even those weapons are not great to play as they teleport around map

I still think we could use stance swaps, where the press of a button changes the functions of other buttons to where the reload button uses slow weapon attacks and the weapon swap button performs little dashes. 

Shouldnt be too much of a strain on DE's End as its by large just some remapping of buttons and attaching specific combo moves to certain buttons

[Sevenus.]

40 minutes ago, quxier said:

Melee doesn't need "slow mod" because it can go fast...

Melee would like slow but hard hitter (or something else) so it would be good to NOT use speed mods (except for personal reasons like "I like to see animations" or "too much speed t eleport me")

i did not mean  specifically a slow, i mean setting a certain stat to a default almost like a negative/curropted mod in return for another stat.

specifically me i dislike when my attack speed is too fast because i do like the animations

 

1 minute ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

I still think we could use stance swaps, where the press of a button changes the functions of other buttons to where the reload button uses slow weapon attacks and the weapon swap button performs little dashes. 

Shouldnt be too much of a strain on DE's End as its by large just some remapping of buttons and attaching specific combo moves to certain buttons

oh man i posted a neat idea about a year ago, imagine being able to modify stance combos - build your own stance by mixing combos from other stances from the same weapon category. this could be sold by teshin for steel essence to fit the roll of mastering the blade, "combat" and give another reason to farm steel essence.

[Dreddeth]

15 minutes ago, quxier said:

But there is no more disparity because you have auto mode (I don't remember option name). You going "slow" is your choice. Not sure how cannonade mods help that "slow vs fast" situation as I've not tested it.

Then you haven't seen how melee can teleport you (confusing you) at high speed. Especially some buffs from frames. I'm running mostly no speed build and even those weapons are not great to play as they teleport around map.

 

I run Eternal War Umbral Valkyr. I know what high-speed melee looks like, probably far better than you do. Cannonade helps semi-auto guns because for them it's essentially putting their damage where it *should* be relative to faster weapons when you take into account not just their fire rate, but also their magazine size, reload time, and ammo reserves, and also letting each individual shot do more via punch-through.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

2 minutes ago, Sevenus. said:

oh man i posted a neat idea about a year ago, imagine being able to modify stance combos - build your own stance by mixing combos from other stances from the same weapon category. this could be sold by teshin for steel essence to fit the roll of mastering the blade, "combat" and give another reason to farm steel essence.

Sounds delicious 

[-MElHiOR-]

35 минут назад, Dreddeth сказал:

Cannonade helps semi-auto guns because for them it's essentially putting their damage where it *should* be relative to faster weapons when you take into account not just their fire rate, but also their magazine size, reload time, and ammo reserves, and also letting each individual shot do more via punch-through.

Latron Prime with Incarnon deals something aprox 1.5m damage with orange crits... And this was actual before Cannonade mods were implemented...

[quxier]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

4 hours ago, quxier said:

Then you haven't seen how melee can teleport you (confusing you) at high speed. Especially some buffs from frames. I'm running mostly no speed build and even those weapons are not great to play as they teleport around map

I still think we could use stance swaps, where the press of a button changes the functions of other buttons to where the reload button uses slow weapon attacks and the weapon swap button performs little dashes. 

Shouldnt be too much of a strain on DE's End as its by large just some remapping of buttons and attaching specific combo moves to certain buttons

Stance swapping would be nice but it wouldn't help with "too much speed".

4 hours ago, Sevenus. said:

4 hours ago, quxier said:

Melee doesn't need "slow mod" because it can go fast...

Melee would like slow but hard hitter (or something else) so it would be good to NOT use speed mods (except for personal reasons like "I like to see animations" or "too much speed t eleport me")

i did not mean  specifically a slow, i mean setting a certain stat to a default almost like a negative/curropted mod in return for another stat.

specifically me i dislike when my attack speed is too fast because i do like the animations

Yeah, I like more than just hold melee and see spastic attacks killing enemies. And yeah, I meant neccessary some super slow stuff (e.g. 0.5). Maybe set speed to 1.0 without being able to mod it.

4 hours ago, Sevenus. said:

4 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

I still think we could use stance swaps, where the press of a button changes the functions of other buttons to where the reload button uses slow weapon attacks and the weapon swap button performs little dashes. 

Shouldnt be too much of a strain on DE's End as its by large just some remapping of buttons and attaching specific combo moves to certain buttons

oh man i posted a neat idea about a year ago, imagine being able to modify stance combos - build your own stance by mixing combos from other stances from the same weapon category. this could be sold by teshin for steel essence to fit the roll of mastering the blade, "combat" and give another reason to farm steel essence.

*Shameless advert*:

 

4 hours ago, Dreddeth said:

4 hours ago, quxier said:

But there is no more disparity because you have auto mode (I don't remember option name). You going "slow" is your choice. Not sure how cannonade mods help that "slow vs fast" situation as I've not tested it.

Then you haven't seen how melee can teleport you (confusing you) at high speed. Especially some buffs from frames. I'm running mostly no speed build and even those weapons are not great to play as they teleport around map.

 

I run Eternal War Umbral Valkyr. I know what high-speed melee looks like, probably far better than you do. Cannonade helps semi-auto guns because for them it's essentially putting their damage where it *should* be relative to faster weapons when you take into account not just their fire rate, but also their magazine size, reload time, and ammo reserves, and also letting each individual shot do more via punch-through.

I honestly don't know where those Cannonade mods sits. Because you have like ~250% damage to rifles & 1.6 Punch thourhg. Then you have ~55 fire rate & 2.2 punch through with some primed mod. Then you can increase speed via various way. You say (I assume) that magazine size, ammo reserve or reload time might be issue. I honestly haven't run in that issue unless I lack damage A LOT like E/DA.

 

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

I honestly don't know where those Cannonade mods sits. Because you have like ~250% damage to rifles & 1.6 Punch thourhg. Then you have ~55 fire rate & 2.2 punch through with some primed mod.

Rifle Cannonade vs Primed Shred is sorta kinda easy to compare on paper, but you have to make some assumptions.  First assumption: not an AoE weapon, because these wouldn't normally be using Shred.

Let's say a 100 damage weapon gets +360% base damage from an arcane.  460 damage.  With Cannonade that becomes +600%, for 700 damage.  That's a 52% increase over the arcane alone.  (More when you don't have full stacks but let's keep things simple.)

52% is slightly less than the 55% increase one would get from Primed Shred under ideal circumstances. 

That's pretty straightforward for a build that isn't using Galvanized Aptitude.  (AoE or OHK focused weapons like some sniper builds.)

But let's assume you're using Gaptitude and the arcane.  Full stacks and let's say 3 status effects.  (That's me trying to strike a conservative balance between hits that will have 0 primed status and hits that will have a lot more than 3.)

That's also 240% base damage, so 700 damage again.  Add Cannonade back in and you're up to +840% base damage, for 940 total.  940/700 = 34%.  Quite a bit less than Primed Shred's 55%.

But there are still more things to consider. 

Cannonade positives: applies all the time, doesn't negatively affect ammo economy or recoil.  Doesn't cost much capacity.   Locks out RoF modifiers if these aren't desirable.

Primed Shred positives: better dps on paper, much better status application, slightly better PT.  Allows other RoF  modifiers if these are desirable.

How much use are you really getting out of the arcane and Gaptitude?  The less efficiently  these are used, the better Cannonade looks.  OTOH there is room to use Gaptitude more efficiently than I assumed with the right setups.

Edited July 3 by Tiltskillet