Please Stop Shadow Nerfing Ash

[(PSN)RB3-Reloaded]

After Jade Shadows many may have noticed that ash has received ANOTHER nerf to his bladestorm ability once again undocumented so people don’t know.

Now only combo mods work on ash and guess what else? NOTHING! Nothing else works on ash’s 4th ability anymore not even attack speed anymore and I simply can’t keep letting this be overlooked it’s ridiculous atp… like it’s not a “BuG” this ONLY happens to ash like imagine the rage that would ensue if Khora players found out crit mods or incarnon perks no longer work on their precious semi-exalted? It would spread like wild fire and cause outrage right?

Ash isn’t overpowered anymore well not in THIS state of the game anyway ESPECIALLY with the health and armour changes that have made slash builds less effective, to put it simply… it is NOT 2016 anymore. 

I’m not asking every mod/stat work with his 4th ability or clones but these ones NEED to be kept ALONE.

Attack Speed - capped fall off at 50% the clones should have a significant increase in their speed like they did BEFORE the update.

Finisher Damage - The clones are preforming FINISHER attacks why shouldn’t they benefit from finisher damage mods.

ALL Combo Mods - Honestly I’m tired of the picking and choosing Ash should benefit from relentless combination he is NOT overpowered and it would simply be a choice to chose between a melee mod slot to further midmax his 4 and or a Frame mod slot with his augment that can allow space for his melee to serve other purposes.

That’s literally ALL you gotta do idk HOW or WHY it’s been decided to nerf his ultimate to the ground? Is it in response to the Citrine last wish update where you made it scale with EVERYTHING such as elemental mods banes and even aoe weapon specific mods like Vulcan blitz when nobody asked for it.

It does not *need* base damage, Faction Mods, status damage or elemental mods to scale with it. Ability strength, Combo multipliers and external buffs like roar can all make up for it.

But Leave Finisher mods and Attack speed mods to benefit as they were ATLEAST. Also relentless combination in this meta where slash is significantly less viable would GREAT especially without external buffs like a primer. In a meta where kullervo can clear a room with significantly less effort AND energy cost ash doesn’t need to nerfed in this way.

You CAN add other mods besides the ones I explicitly stated too I’m not opposed but let’s have a CLEAR baseline on what blade storm should ALWAYS scale with.

Edited July 28 by (PSN)RB3-Reloaded

[Rathalio]

54 minutes ago, (PSN)RB3-Reloaded said:

it’s not a “BuG” this ONLY happens to ash

It is certainly a bug, especially if it's undocumented in the patchnotes.

Recently Sevagoth crit chance bonus was supposedly "nerfed", they communicated on it being a bug when people started talking about it and then they fixed it. And if they decided to make such a big change and that bladestorm shouldn't benefit from damage mods anymore, DE would definitely document it somewhere. It's a bug not a conspiracy.

(Or else maybe there is something you are have not been doing right lately and made you think it's not working anymore. Like since Jade Shadows slash damages in general are less overpowered for instance.)

[(PSN)RB3-Reloaded]

28 minutes ago, Rathalio said:

(Or else maybe there is something you are have not been doing right lately and made you think it's not working anymore. Like since Jade Shadows slash damages in general are less overpowered for instance.)

Enemy health has increased overall this update to compensate for armour and health changes and corpus shields have also received buffs slash is simply not AS affective as it used to in comparison to other status affects since damage is also faction bound.

if it is a bug “okay” I guess I’ll wait until a mainline update until it’s fixed since players seemed to have recognised Sevagoths detriments before ash.

[Rathalio]

12 hours ago, (PSN)RB3-Reloaded said:

if it is a bug “okay” I guess I’ll wait until a mainline update until it’s fixed since players seemed to have recognised Sevagoths detriments before ash.

Although I would recommend you check if the bug you seem to encounter has been properly reported in the most appropriate subforum (General Jade Shadows Feedback - Warframe Forums) as this one gets more visibility and priority for the devs. And also make sure you can detail what's exactly happening, follow the guideline they made for bug reports, these criteria really helps getting things fixed faster.

Edited July 29 by Rathalio

[Famecans]

12 hours ago, Rathalio said:

Although I would recommend you check if the bug you seem to encounter has been properly reported in the most appropriate subforum (General Jade Shadows Feedback - Warframe Forums) as this one gets more visibility and priority for the devs. And also make sure you can detail what's exactly happening, follow the guideline they made for bug reports, these criteria really helps getting things fixed faster.

[Rathalio]

11 hours ago, Famecans said:

The wiki comments is not a place DE devs looks for bug fixing neither is the wiki made by DE. It's not the place for a bug report, so what's your point?

[(PSN)SonicShift7]

I`ve been seeing people complaining about Ash`s being nerfed and his 4th being nerfed and it`s irritating.

Let me explain people are upset at Ash`s 4th not being "powerful" but this proves how people only care about his 4th and nothing else, why are you asking for it to be fix? what you should be asking for is for Ash to get a revisit.

I say Revisit because I saw someone mentioned the difference between a rework and a revisit and I agree with them, Ash don`t needs any of his ability to be replaced (which is a rework), his abilities don`t need QOL changes neither that`s not enough, what Ash needs is a revisit, which improves on what is already there.

So you guys say Ash`s 4 needs to be fixed, no he needs more than that:

• His shuriken can hit the target you want to hit.
• His smoke screen could be so much better that what he does.
• His teleport doesn`t work all the time you use is.
• And his bladestorm is a complete mess, the marking is bad, the teleporting into it is a stupid idea  it`s sickly for people that can`t handle it and many many more, the only "good" thing is that damage but what`s the point if you don`t have time to kill enemies because other people will beat you to it?

All of this abilities needs improvements!

Here an improvement for you:

Spoiler

Make Ash`s Bladestorm instant when active, which leaves a visible ring on the ground, enemies will be killed if they are inside the ring and new enemies that enter it will be killed off. Also press to be in the animation, hold to send apparitions out.

See I just fixed the way bladestorm functions, simple.

Again what you guys should be asking for is a REVISIT because if Ash is as good as people say he is, they why do I barely see him, that alone says a lot.

[(PSN)RB3-Reloaded]

Ash is good if you don’t clutch on the same thing there are several ways to build ash now especially with his crit augment essentially changing him to a weapon buffer based frame. He does not need a rework true and a revisit would be okay but you yourself don’t understand him well tbh

His shurikan could use some better targeting code absolutely agreed but that’s such a salt and pepper take everyone has complained about it essentially atp

You now complained about his smoke shasow ability without actually giving any *SUGGESTIONS* you just kinda said “just make it better”.

Now my biggest gripe with your take is his 4th…

First of all teleporting into the ability grants you immunity during the animation and isn’t a sTuPiD iDeA. Not only that but before his rework in 2016 it was one of the few abilities that played an animation which many players missed and now it pays homage to that whilst actually being beneficial.

Also the reason you “don’t have time” for him to kill enemies anymore is BECAUSE his 4 was nerfed/ broken and has been FOR A WHILE attack speed mods USED to make the ability significantly faster, infact faster than most other players especially in high level play were most room clearer abilities fall off HARD. You’re complaining about something that fixing his 4th would resolve.

The complaints aren’t misplaced and ash is a good frame or WAS a good frame and the reason you don’t see him is because he’s broken or because you don’t play missions he excels in like disruption or void cascade.

Also if you’re going to make suggestions on how a frame should be improved or revisited in your instance actually make some suggestions.

[ScytodiDaedalus]

15 hours ago, (PSN)SonicShift7 said:

Here an improvement for you:

  Hide contents

Make Ash`s Bladestorm instant when active, which leaves a visible ring on the ground, enemies will be killed if they are inside the ring and new enemies that enter it will be killed off. Also press to be in the animation, hold to send apparitions out.

See I just fixed the way bladestorm functions, simple.

Yes, ideally Ash needs better marking and targeting for both Shuriken and Bladestorm.

I bring it up every time I complain about Ash, but I wouldn't mind playing Ash if Teleporting to anybody, even non-marked enemies while Bladestorm is running STILL FORCES YOU IN THE ANIMATION. So you can't leave a storm running and stab other enemies around.

Anyhow, it's been brought up before, increasing shuriken base damage, count or just making the armor strip part of the base ability and have a real decent augment. I recently played Dagath and it surprised me how much damage she gets whirling around her and it just gets thrown all around onto enemies afterwards, with Viral procs, piling on a lot of damage. We know it's all powercrept, but this just shows how much on the dust Ash really is.

Smoke screen has always been the lowest duration invisibility as far as I know with minimal utility aside from the invis itself, this was understandable back in the day packing one of the strongest and fastest abilities to clear enemies. Nowadays, not so, It has required a slight increase on base duration and, at least to me, some value to go for an actual Smoke Screen, something to blind, slow or make enemies more vulnerable within the radius, anything of that sort would be good enough. Also, the 50% energy cost reduction for Bladestorm is no synergy, it's a penalty on Bladestorm for casting it without pressing 2 first.

Teleport's utility to open enemies to finishers is ok, I'm not really sure how it ocassionally fails, I have not used it enough recently, but I can say it is slow to cast, when starting to jump until you are able to act again when it ends. the animation should be way swifter than it is now.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

You're completely missing the point though.

The nerfs are not part of changelogs, that's what people are malding over.

Also they're not really justified in any form. If you're looking at things objectively, Ash's not even oppressive with Bladestorm. It's all bleed procs, which have gotten weaker in this new balance due to higher enemy health to compensate for less armor (which Bleed procs have always ignored).

 

Shadownerfs / new bugs being undocumented always become sources of complaints, just check out what happened earlier with Sevagoth's 1st augment not working as intended.

And again, we're talking about a frame that doesn't have a whole lot for itself to begin with, not something incredibly popular that can ignore death permanently with a single button press while having %max health damage in an AoE (you know who I'm talking about).

[(PSN)RB3-Reloaded]

On 2024-08-01 at 2:21 PM, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

You're completely missing the point though.

The nerfs are not part of changelogs, that's what people are malding over.

Also they're not really justified in any form. If you're looking at things objectively, Ash's not even oppressive with Bladestorm. It's all bleed procs, which have gotten weaker in this new balance due to higher enemy health to compensate for less armor (which Bleed procs have always ignored).

 

Shadownerfs / new bugs being undocumented always become sources of complaints, just check out what happened earlier with Sevagoth's 1st augment not working as intended.

And again, we're talking about a frame that doesn't have a whole lot for itself to begin with, not something incredibly popular that can ignore death permanently with a single button press while having %max health damage in an AoE (you know who I'm talking about).

THANKYOU

It seems the two threads have been fused together lol I hope DE or moderation has atleast SEEN the problem with ash before fusing threads and leaving us in the dark

[Venus-Venera]

Am 28.7.2024 um 23:50 schrieb (PSN)RB3-Reloaded:

After Jade Shadows many may have noticed that ash has received ANOTHER nerf to his bladestorm ability once again undocumented so people don’t know.

Now only combo mods work on ash and guess what else? NOTHING! Nothing else works on ash’s 4th ability anymore not even attack speed anymore and I simply can’t keep letting this be overlooked it’s ridiculous atp… like it’s not a “BuG” this ONLY happens to ash like imagine the rage that would ensue if Khora players found out crit mods or incarnon perks no longer work on their precious semi-exalted? It would spread like wild fire and cause outrage right?

Ash isn’t overpowered anymore well not in THIS state of the game anyway ESPECIALLY with the health and armour changes that have made slash builds less effective, to put it simply… it is NOT 2016 anymore. 

I’m not asking every mod/stat work with his 4th ability or clones but these ones NEED to be kept ALONE.

Attack Speed - capped fall off at 50% the clones should have a significant increase in their speed like they did BEFORE the update.

Finisher Damage - The clones are preforming FINISHER attacks why shouldn’t they benefit from finisher damage mods.

ALL Combo Mods - Honestly I’m tired of the picking and choosing Ash should benefit from relentless combination he is NOT overpowered and it would simply be a choice to chose between a melee mod slot to further midmax his 4 and or a Frame mod slot with his augment that can allow space for his melee to serve other purposes.

That’s literally ALL you gotta do idk HOW or WHY it’s been decided to nerf his ultimate to the ground? Is it in response to the Citrine last wish update where you made it scale with EVERYTHING such as elemental mods banes and even aoe weapon specific mods like Vulcan blitz when nobody asked for it.

It does not *need* base damage, Faction Mods, status damage or elemental mods to scale with it. Ability strength, Combo multipliers and external buffs like roar can all make up for it.

But Leave Finisher mods and Attack speed mods to benefit as they were ATLEAST. Also relentless combination in this meta where slash is significantly less viable would GREAT especially without external buffs like a primer. In a meta where kullervo can clear a room with significantly less effort AND energy cost ash doesn’t need to nerfed in this way.

You CAN add other mods besides the ones I explicitly stated too I’m not opposed but let’s have a CLEAR baseline on what blade storm should ALWAYS scale with.

good points! ash is very underpowered and that's exactly why we almost never (and by that I mean almost NOT AT ALL) see him in the game...

because his only strength is stealth and usable def stats... and that's it? come on... something should happening here!

I wanted to try out a usable build and then gave up because it doesn't make sense. even excal umbra is miserable if we compare his performance with rambo-terminator kullervo.

[Petergeist00]

On 2024-08-09 at 12:46 AM, Venus-Venera said:

ash is very underpowered and that's exactly why we almost never (and by that I mean almost NOT AT ALL) see him in the game...

The only Ash i see in my games it's mine, and i still main him because at this point i can't understand if i am a masochist or just nostalgic since he was my first built frame in the far away 2013.

Ash is underpowered and NEEDS a revisit/rework/miracle however you guys wanna call it. if the warframe has many bugs and problems EVERY UPDATE probably he needs to change, because he is old and problematic. (since Dagath dropped, Ash suffered of many bugs, some made him literally non functional and some youtubers literally spread some of those bugs as feature permanently damaging the playerbase of Ash, i still see people running innodem on him thinking BS is still influenced by it.)

[(PSN)RB3-Reloaded]

3 minutes ago, Petergeist00 said:

Ash is underpowered and NEEDS a revisit/rework/miracle however you guys wanna call it. if the warframe has many bugs and problems EVERY UPDATE probably he needs to change, because he is old and problematic. (since Dagath dropped, Ash suffered of many bugs, some made him literally non functional and some youtubers literally spread some of those bugs as feature permanently damaging the playerbase of Ash, i still see people running innodem on him thinking BS is still influenced by it.)

I feel like you guys are just saying stuff out frustration because his kit is as it is or atleast how it’s supposed to function is not bad like AT ALL

He just keeps breaking like every update which is mainly due to incompetence honestly if he got a few number tweeks here and there that would literally be fine like increasing the duration of his smoke shadow idk but this rEwOrK talk gotta go

If fixing his bugs a few number tweaks and just a few general of life like the Frost revisit is what we’re looking at fine but changes to his abilities is going to be so unwarranted 

but atleast we all unanimously agree ash is NOT overpowered and is currently getting screwed which is fair enough glad we’re not as delusional as nyx players

[Petergeist00]

23 minutes ago, (PSN)RB3-Reloaded said:

I feel like you guys are just saying stuff out frustration because his kit is as it is or atleast how it’s supposed to function is not bad like AT ALL

He just keeps breaking like every update which is mainly due to incompetence honestly if he got a few number tweeks here and there that would literally be fine like increasing the duration of his smoke shadow idk but this rEwOrK talk gotta go

it depends of which part of his kit we are talking in my opinion.

Shuriken? some tweaks are fine and if we are at it the augment could be basekit

Smoke? a slightly duration increase would benefit build variety and bladestorm (i made a topic about it some time ago, i believe it's still visible in my profile but without details TLDR just give it 3 more seconds so Primed continuity alone is enough and you can build for BS)

Teleport - Oh boy i don't know where to start, TLDR just make it similar to Kullervo's and unbind it from the Bladestorm joint attack. (in conclave it works like Kullervo's btw)

Bladestorm? just the target system, really that's the main problem. Some old Ash players wants old BS back while others want the freedom of still walking while BS is active. i believe a middle ground would be the best with a Tap/Hold system. Tap the bladestorm acts like the old Bladestorm while if you Hold you can aim like the current Bladestorm and just send the clones. also the targeting system, the actual system, has a LOT of problems with new tilesets. LoS gets broken by the thin air and you can't mark enemies.

so i believe that's more a revisit than a rework. and YES i'm frustrated. Mainly because of the insane amount of bugs Ash gets every update, that only get fixed in 6-8 months.

 

 

23 minutes ago, (PSN)RB3-Reloaded said:

we’re not as delusional as nyx players

they are a cult.

Edited August 11 by Petergeist00

[Venus-Venera]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Petergeist00:

The only Ash i see in my games it's mine, and i still main him because at this point i can't understand if i am a masochist or just nostalgic since he was my first built frame in the far away 2013.

Ash is underpowered and NEEDS a revisit/rework/miracle however you guys wanna call it. if the warframe has many bugs and problems EVERY UPDATE probably he needs to change, because he is old and problematic. (since Dagath dropped, Ash suffered of many bugs, some made him literally non functional and some youtubers literally spread some of those bugs as feature permanently damaging the playerbase of Ash, i still see people running innodem on him thinking BS is still influenced by it.)

probably a bit of everything. i also played frost for a long time. because i liked his look and i had fantasies in my head about armored battle mage who protects his team. in 2013 there was hardly anything to do except long defenses and survs anyway. and i even played with ext missions, although he didn't make any sense there and ran like a snail behind others and basically just collected loot.

and they can design very usable warframes. because let's look at the last ones: kullervo, jade, dante... they have skill synergy and long cds and good defense stats.

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2024-07-28 at 10:50 PM, (PSN)RB3-Reloaded said:

this ONLY happens to ash like imagine the rage that would ensue if Khora players found out crit mods or incarnon perks no longer work on their precious semi-exalted?

It... does happen to the others, though?

There's more and more occasions where Abilities that do not explicitly say they scale from anything on the melee to suffer undocumented bugs or changes due to DE switching up some minor function. For example, being able to stack the Set bonuses on a weapon by equipping the same mods on a Sentinel weapon used to be a thing (instead of having to stack on of each individual mod somewhere on your build), but then they changed it, and briefly putting the set mods on the Sentinel didn't affect any of the pseudo weapon abilities, but they patched that quickly to allow the ones on the Sentinels to affect the pseudos without affecting regular melee. And it's been happening since the very first Ability Melee (Hysteria) was introduced. I remember because I was there for most of the changes throughout the game's history, including where they introduced more Ability Melee weapons, with Excal, and then differentiated them from the pseudo versions by giving them explicit modding, while others didn't get that.

You have bugs where Atlas could suddenly benefit from the crit chance of certain melee, but not others, adjusting his Landslide to suddenly have a base crit of 20% or so, and then another update took it away undocumented.

You have bugs where Khora's whip reverts to the old Line of Sight (from the frame, not the point of impact), but then gets patched out undocumented while the actual Hotfix says it's fixing something else.

Players check for them at every update, it happens across the board because DE has spaghetti code.

If all of these frames had been created at the same time using the same systems, we'd not have this kind of problem, but every one of them is months or even years apart, meaning that something that started as a pure Ability like Bladestorm, becomes a Pseudo and then not again and then is again and then isn't again.

Just report the bug and carry on, it's just a bug and it happens all the time with all of the Pseudo weapon abilities. Getting outraged over it does nothing.

Heck, even reporting it seems to do nothing... so maybe just switch to being apathetic about the whole deal and take what you can actually get while you can get it...

[(PSN)SonicShift7]

On 2024-08-01 at 6:48 AM, ScytodiDaedalus said:

Yes, ideally Ash needs better marking and targeting for both Shuriken and Bladestorm.

I bring it up every time I complain about Ash, but I wouldn't mind playing Ash if Teleporting to anybody, even non-marked enemies while Bladestorm is running STILL FORCES YOU IN THE ANIMATION. So you can't leave a storm running and stab other enemies around.

Anyhow, it's been brought up before, increasing shuriken base damage, count or just making the armor strip part of the base ability and have a real decent augment. I recently played Dagath and it surprised me how much damage she gets whirling around her and it just gets thrown all around onto enemies afterwards, with Viral procs, piling on a lot of damage. We know it's all powercrept, but this just shows how much on the dust Ash really is.

Smoke screen has always been the lowest duration invisibility as far as I know with minimal utility aside from the invis itself, this was understandable back in the day packing one of the strongest and fastest abilities to clear enemies. Nowadays, not so, It has required a slight increase on base duration and, at least to me, some value to go for an actual Smoke Screen, something to blind, slow or make enemies more vulnerable within the radius, anything of that sort would be good enough. Also, the 50% energy cost reduction for Bladestorm is no synergy, it's a penalty on Bladestorm for casting it without pressing 2 first.

Teleport's utility to open enemies to finishers is ok, I'm not really sure how it ocassionally fails, I have not used it enough recently, but I can say it is slow to cast, when starting to jump until you are able to act again when it ends. the animation should be way swifter than it is now.

Ash don`t need to mark anything, the old bs did it right you target one enemy and enemies within the radius got killed, shuriken just need to have an addition to hold the button to shoot in a straight line and deal more damage and add utility to it, with that versions it`s possible to target who you want to and you`re able to get headshots.

Honestly his shuriken augment imo need to go, why have that when bs can bypass armour? I would rather the augment disarm enemies it makes sense and it`s practical.

When it comes to smoke screen I wish it did more like having a stun duration, making enemies affected weaker to attacks (like what you said which I agree).

Ash needs a revisit badly there are other warframe that does what he does but better and if you have to use an augment to make him better then that`s a problem.

The beast Ash post I have seen is this one.

Spoiler

 

This person explain his issues with facts and stars then he gives his ideas which like I said is the best I've seen, this person even has another Ash post made in 2020 that got over 30,000 views and that had less information. And what you said about teleport this post and answer that, I suggest you and anybody reading to check this post out it`s very good.

 

Edited September 7 by (PSN)SonicShift7

[Xana_Skullsunder]

I'll take whatever I can get for Ash, but right now, I really want Shuriken to not suck.

Make the Augment the default, let the Shuriken count scale by Power Strength, give it the combo-casting system from Ember's Fireball, give it infinite punch-through so we're at least hitting entire corridors with this god-awful amount of damage. Something, anything. The fact that Shuriken is Ash's Subsumed skill is just salt on the wound.

 

[XaoGarrent]

On 2024-07-28 at 5:50 PM, (PSN)RB3-Reloaded said:

like it’s not a “BuG” this ONLY happens to ash like imagine the rage that would ensue if Khora players found out crit mods or incarnon perks no longer work on their precious semi-exalted?

It is likely a bug. He's 4 doesn't work like other pseudo-exalted weapons, and never has. Various patches have either buffed or nerfed bladestorm unintentionally in the past, and some of those were in fact huge buffs.

Bladestorm is weird. It's entirely possible that they messed around with something in the code in regards to pseudo exalted weapons, and it wasn't meant to change anything, but it did change something about Bladestorm and they don't even realize that it did.