(XBOX)KayAitch Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 (edited) There is a lot of power creep in this game. There was a time when exalted ability weapons were the most powerful. But rivens, powerful mods, exilus slots, arcanes all came to regular weapons, but not to exalted. Some frames get enough scale with power strength to get past all this, but many don't. For instance I can equip Venka Prime with tennokai, a riven, an arcane that doubles critical hits, acolyte mods that scale critical chance and status with combo, amalgam mods that speed up heavy attacks, etc. It will do significantly more damage than Valkyr's ability claws, which get access to none of those. This makes the exalted weapons kind of a fixed scale. Amazingly OP when you first get the frame, useless at the tail end of steel path and various netracells. This also makes the weird buggy mess of stat sticks significantly better than exalted. Khora's Whipclaw with a good Jaw Sword riven just humiliates Valkyr ("oh you're a melee frame, how quaint" *whips entire room to death at once*). They should just have access to all the tools regular weapons get, even (maybe) rivens (though it would be a new riven class). Edited August 10 by (XBOX)KayAitch 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numerounius Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 2 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said: For instance I can equip Venka Prime with tennokai, a riven, an arcane that doubles critical hits, acolyte mods that scale critical chance and status with combo, amalgam mods that speed up heavy attacks, etc. It will do significantly more damage than Valkyr's ability claws, which get access to none of those. That's not true? Exalted weapons have Tennokai. DE has clearly stated no rivens for Warframes. Acolyte mods and melee arcanes is a standard that goes back a long time ago. 2 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said: This makes the exalted weapons kind of a fixed scale. Amazingly OP when you first get the frame, useless at the tail end of steel path and various netracells. And while true it might not work in the 1% of gamemodes like high level Netracells or level 9999 steel path endurance runs you can still make it work against the 99% of other content without the need for that stuff. I've even made them work in the Circuit. 2 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said: This also makes the weird buggy mess of stat sticks significantly better than exalted. Khora's Whipclaw with a good Jaw Sword riven just humiliates Valkyr ("oh you're a melee frame, how quaint" *whips entire room to death at once*). They have commented on stat stick usage but haven't acted upon it since then. Will be interesting to see what happens when that is finally acted upon. I still prefer the regular playstyle that Exalted weapons give rather than the Stat Stick stuff that gets used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_Avant_2019 Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 il y a 34 minutes, Numerounius a dit : That's not true? Exalted weapons have Tennokai. DE has clearly stated no rivens for Warframes. Acolyte mods and melee arcanes is a standard that goes back a long time ago. And while true it might not work in the 1% of gamemodes like high level Netracells or level 9999 steel path endurance runs you can still make it work against the 99% of other content without the need for that stuff. I've even made them work in the Circuit. They have commented on stat stick usage but haven't acted upon it since then. Will be interesting to see what happens when that is finally acted upon. I still prefer the regular playstyle that Exalted weapons give rather than the Stat Stick stuff that gets used. Tennokai specifically doesn't work on Titania's melee weapon, because it's an archmelee. Archmelees don't have working Heavy Attacks, so the Tennokai won't do anything. Exalted and Pseudo Exalted weapons need to be streamlined together to work in the exact same manner, and not differ from other moddable weaponry, that way it : Removes access to riven in the process (which is a downgrade for players who have stat sticks), but an upgrade for others, as this means we can finally address damage numbers in a reasonable manner. Grants access to Exilus slot for Primary and Secondary exalted weapons, and grant extra modding capacity on exalted Melee stances, scaling with the ability's rank. Allows the usage of every mod for the weapon archetype (Amalgam mods, Acolyte mods and such) for a streamlined modding experience. Gives Exalted weaponry an Arcane slot to allow even further customization. Allows players to know what to even mod for without being forced to look everything up on the wiki. Gives the opportunity for in depth or light reworks to several frames that use Exalted weapons, pseudo exalted weapons, but also abilities that behave in a similar manner but without the modding aspect (looking at you Chroma's Spectral Scream). Can lead to reworks on the pseudo exalt base stats (currently Slash Dash has 0% crit chance, 1.0x crit multiplier and 0% status chance to Khora's 25% crit chance, 2.0x crit multiplier, 25% status chance Whipclaw, while also having less potential damage (doesn't have an augment that boosts its ability strength, only hits one target at a time), which even now doesn't make sense, as Exalted Blade's base stats are 15%, 2.0x, 15%). If the main concern for not streamlining the whole system is the backlash from the stat stick abusers, let it be known it could be all mitigated by giving popular high dispo old weapons some Incarnon forms. Such weapons may include Jaw Sword, Amphis and Plasma Sword to name just a few. I mean, yeah, I can make Slash Dash redcrit with my Ceramic dagger, but that's not very fair : other warframes without stat sticks or exalts can perform just as well/better, while also not being locked into a bad config. The only silver lining is that the Ceramic Dagger is actually a very potent melee so you're not as gimped if you want to wack enemies with it, but that's about it. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)KayAitch Posted August 10 Author Share Posted August 10 2 hours ago, Numerounius said: Exalted weapons have Tennokai Ah, my mistake, yes they do. Not that tennokai adds even a fraction of the power that Blood Rush does. 2 hours ago, Numerounius said: Acolyte mods and melee arcanes is a standard that goes back a long time ago Yes, this has been the standard for ages, and at first it was OK. Years of power creep later this is adding up. 2 hours ago, Numerounius said: And while true it might not work in the 1% of gamemodes like high level Netracells or level 9999 steel path endurance runs you can still make it work against the 99% of other content without the need for that stuff It doesn't work in base Steel Path - you survive fine, but on any team Valkyr will have the fewest kills (unless you just use guns). But, most folks are here for the end game. The vast majority of current players are on the latest content, which is Archimedea and Netracells and the new SP any-relic endless variants. And it's reflected in the stats. Last year Valkyr was hardly played by anyone: https://www.warframe.com/2023stats 2 hours ago, Numerounius said: still prefer the regular playstyle that Exalted weapons give rather than the Stat Stick stuff that gets used I hate stat sticks. They're nasty buggy guesswork. The solution for an ability doing insane damage should not be a garbage weapon with the right mods. 1 hour ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said: Tennokai specifically doesn't work on Titania's melee weapon, because it's an archmelee Oh, Diwata is absolutely the most useless exalted weapon in the game, but Dex Pixie scales off power strength so she's fine. 1 hour ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said: Allows players to know what to even mod for without being forced to look everything up on the wiki Again, why I hate stat sticks. 1 hour ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said: If the main concern for not streamlining the whole system is the backlash from the stat stick abusers, let it be known it could be all mitigated by giving popular high dispo old weapons some Incarnon forms. Such weapons may include Jaw Sword, Amphis and Plasma Sword to name just a few There would be losers, but nobody wants Incarnon Jaw Swords or the like. If pseudo exalted were just straight moddable but we also got fully moddable exalteds I think folks would accept 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRYPTR0N Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 On 2024-08-10 at 6:50 PM, Numerounius said: Exalted weapons have Tennokai. DE has clearly stated no rivens for Warframes. Acolyte mods and melee arcanes is a standard that goes back a long time ago. Just because its a standard doesnt mean its not an issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)KayAitch Posted August 20 Author Share Posted August 20 On 2024-08-16 at 5:28 PM, KRYPTR0N said: On 2024-08-10 at 5:50 PM, Numerounius said: Acolyte mods and melee arcanes is a standard that goes back a long time ago. Just because its a standard doesnt mean its not an issue I think it made sense back in the day... exalted weapons were the top tier, they didn't need power creep. Since then we have more mods, arcanes, incarnons, but also Steel Path, Netracells and more endgame content intended for maxed out builds. I think this was probably the right call originally, but it isn't now. I don't think it's a trivial change, but they should open ways to keep these frames current. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorham Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 On 2024-08-10 at 3:54 PM, (XBOX)KayAitch said: useless at the tail end of steel path and various netracells Exalted Blade works fine for stuff like Steel Path and Netracells. With Tennokai you can rip through that without buffs (such as Wrathful Advance, etc), and without high ability strength (177 is enough). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Void2258 Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 (edited) The stances not giving capacity for melee exalted is also a big issue. I have multiple melee exalted with an unleveled/underleveld mod in the last slot because there is no way to get another decently upgraded mod on even with 8 matched polarities. Edited August 23 by Void2258 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)KayAitch Posted August 27 Author Share Posted August 27 On 2024-08-23 at 2:25 AM, Void2258 said: The stances not giving capacity for melee exalted is also a big issue. I have multiple melee exalted with an unleveled/underleveld mod in the last slot because there is no way to get another decently upgraded mod on even with 8 matched polarities Even when this doesn't reduce power it limits build options and removes flexibility. If you have to forma a frame for one faction you're probably not going to be using it much. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agall Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 On 2024-08-10 at 7:54 AM, (XBOX)KayAitch said: There is a lot of power creep in this game. There was a time when exalted ability weapons were the most powerful. arcanes to exalted. I'd say the most reasonable buff they could give to Exalted Weapons would be arcanes. An Electric Exalted Blade with Melee Influence would be so unbelievably powerful, everyone would cower before the might of Excalibur once again. On 2024-08-22 at 7:25 PM, Void2258 said: The stances not giving capacity for melee exalted is also a big issue. I have multiple melee exalted with an unleveled/underleveld mod in the last slot because there is no way to get another decently upgraded mod on even with 8 matched polarities. Not the case for Exalted Blade at least, the min-maxed setup I've used for years slotted in a Tennokai mod just nicely when WitW came out. On 2024-08-22 at 12:08 AM, Thorham said: Exalted Blade works fine for stuff like Steel Path and Netracells. With Tennokai you can rip through that without buffs (such as Wrathful Advance, etc), and without high ability strength (177 is enough). Exalted Blade even without Chromatic Blade augment is even SP level cap viable (not great, but it works) with a fully min-maxed build. My min-maxed build has a toxin only EB setup as a backup weapon, but it primarily uses a Dual Ichor viral+electric setup (I also have toxin+mag and toxin+corrosive setups, influence is just too good not to pass on). Strength directly buffs the setup because of Wrathful Advance, so the build runs 303% or 318%, depending on if you're using Prime or Umbra because of the exilus augment. On 2024-08-10 at 10:50 AM, Numerounius said: I still prefer the regular playstyle that Exalted weapons give rather than the Stat Stick stuff that gets used. I think both can still exist, Excalibur being the perfect example for it being the only Warframe with both a pseudo-exalted and exalted weapon. The advantage there is you have two forms of 'stat sticks' for Slash Dash, dependent on your equipped melee or if Exalted Blade is drawn. I think it adds necessary complexity to keep things interesting in the game, considering its not required knowledge and tuning for new or intermediate players to understand. Its not even close to required for Steel Path since Exalted Blade can do that just nicely on its own. Ideally they buff Radial Javelin in some way, either making it scale off Exalted Blade's mods or just giving it the same pseudo-exalted code as Slash Dash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venus-Venera Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 Am 10.8.2024 um 15:54 schrieb (XBOX)KayAitch: There is a lot of power creep in this game. There was a time when exalted ability weapons were the most powerful. But rivens, powerful mods, exilus slots, arcanes all came to regular weapons, but not to exalted. Some frames get enough scale with power strength to get past all this, but many don't. For instance I can equip Venka Prime with tennokai, a riven, an arcane that doubles critical hits, acolyte mods that scale critical chance and status with combo, amalgam mods that speed up heavy attacks, etc. It will do significantly more damage than Valkyr's ability claws, which get access to none of those. This makes the exalted weapons kind of a fixed scale. Amazingly OP when you first get the frame, useless at the tail end of steel path and various netracells. This also makes the weird buggy mess of stat sticks significantly better than exalted. Khora's Whipclaw with a good Jaw Sword riven just humiliates Valkyr ("oh you're a melee frame, how quaint" *whips entire room to death at once*). They should just have access to all the tools regular weapons get, even (maybe) rivens (though it would be a new riven class). There are a ton of topics about this. Everything has been successfully ignored so far. and yes! Exalted weapons should also be excalted. So they should be much more powerful than normal prime weapons. This also includes mod set bonus, extra stats from galvanized and of course 1-2 arcanes. Because some excalted weapons burn too much energy and are still useless. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)KayAitch Posted August 28 Author Share Posted August 28 3 hours ago, Venus-Venera said: yes! Exalted weapons should also be excalted. So they should be much more powerful than normal prime weapons Most prime weapons are junk, minimal stat boosts to mid tier weapons. Exalted weapons should have some way to reach incarnon levels, because if they don't they'll just be power-crept to uselessness eventually. Maybe that means some high level unlocks mechanism, but there needs to be something to keep ability-weapon frames relevant. And this is why we still have stat sticks. If these become moddable it would be a massive nerf to the frames that use them. Fix modding for ability weapons and DE could fix stat sticks too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venus-Venera Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 vor 4 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)KayAitch: Most prime weapons are junk, minimal stat boosts to mid tier weapons. Exalted weapons should have some way to reach incarnon levels, because if they don't they'll just be power-crept to uselessness eventually. Maybe that means some high level unlocks mechanism, but there needs to be something to keep ability-weapon frames relevant. And this is why we still have stat sticks. If these become moddable it would be a massive nerf to the frames that use them. Fix modding for ability weapons and DE could fix stat sticks too. that too. maybe enable an exalted upgrade with a very rare item that drops somewhere. that alone can provide a lot of content. and then in addition to much better damage, arcane slot/slots are also possible and other features. and primed weapons can certainly do a lot of damage. but then you have to build everything around the weapon. so fire rate bond, maybe also crit bond, dmg arcanes and most likely loot frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorham Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 (edited) On 2024-08-28 at 3:46 PM, Agall said: Exalted Blade even without Chromatic Blade augment is even SP level cap viable (not great, but it works) with a fully min-maxed build. Without Chromatic Blade, no buffs, two empty mod slots (Chromatic Blade and a faction damage mod removed), only 177 strength, it still rips through SP Conjunction Survival easily (200+ relic version). Tennokai does the trick (Discipline's Merit + Primed Reach). Tennokai seems to seriously save Exalted Blade. Edited August 30 by Thorham typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agall Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 1 hour ago, Thorham said: Without Chromatic Blade, no buffs, two empty mod slots (Chromatic Blade and a faction damage mod removed), only 177 strength, it still rips through SP Conjunction Survival easily (200+ relic version). Tennokai does the trick (Discipline's Merit + Primed Reach). Tennokai seems to seriously save Exalted Blade. I run 303% strength (umbra version has 318%) and its using a similar combination of melee attacks and Slash Dash as my Dual Ichor set. That being SP level cap viable, something I just tested again last night. My Excalibur build though is the result of being an Excalibur main for 11 years and being the type of person to design and use my own builds in these types of games. Its the best generalist build for Excalibur that doesn't sacrifice in any area to not still be SP level cap viable in each area. The only suggestion away from it would be to anyone without a snazzy Dual Ichor build (which uses a particular 'non meta' set of stats), the solution would be to just use [Chromatic Blade] instead of [Surging Dash] with blast only type damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorham Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 2 hours ago, Agall said: That being SP level cap viable How do you stay alive at that level? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agall Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 1 minute ago, Thorham said: How do you stay alive at that level? [Primed Redirection], a properly built MOA+verglas build, Vazarin's shield and void sling immunity (or Unairu for Umbra, works almost the same), CC through damage and killing stuff. There's a critical mass of kills/minute you can reach that makes you effectively immortal, something I just tested recently when NOT using Dual Ichor at level cap when testing to see how good Hate Incarnon was. Spoilers, it was miserable and did like 1/50th the damage which was also a survivability problem at level cap. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agall Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 (edited) . Edited August 30 by Agall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agall Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 4 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said: well, I know much better alternatives. And it's not damage that's the problem, but survival. And then there's energy management, which is very questionable with damage like that. That's why tank warframes with 5x tau violet shards + 500 energy + kullervo skill have much better performance than excal can ever have. Arcane in particular offers an extremely high damage boost. And here I don't even need heavy attack and can just hold down the mele button and get my 1-6m hits. And when it comes to heavy attack efficiency warframe, I can kill a lot with one click. Kullervo is in the middle in overkill damage, but even he can kill almost everything instantly with 6xmil heavy attack on sp. I'm talking about myself: I use 2nd skill (enough range and a lot of duration) and 2k health buffer with 800 armor. So level cap in solo sp void ani is not a problem. However, you shouldn't overdo it and shouldn't stand in the middle of large rooms. Every time I've been grouped up with a Kullervo in SP endurance missions, they struggle to keep up with my Excalibur build in damage and survivability. Could be that those players just aren't very good, but its a common problem. Only 6M heavy attacks? My Slash Dash hits harder than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agall Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 Just now, Venus-Venera said: I'm more interested in general performance (especially for random content) and not in pointless overkill damage. Because in the end, kills per minute are what counts. I occasionally meet top people with a lot of overkill damage. If it's as you describe, then it's praiseworthy. You've built a good build with good performance. I'm somewhat of a scientist myself, and never stopped played Excalibur. A few things changed recently that were massive that really opened up a lot more possibilities for Excalibur other than Heat Exalted Blade with Chromatic Blade augment: -Status rework eliminated the need for heat on Exalted Blade, which freed up a mod slot that [Archon Vitality] occupied. Even in this case, Toxin only with [Chromatic Blade] performed effectively the same as this setup, maybe a 10% damage advantage to heat (but less to status capped enemies). -Status rework eliminated a 'catch 22' with [Furious Javelin], which couldn't provide enough damage to justify its use past base SP that couldn't be solved with armor strip. Before status rework, you either didn't have enough mod slots or it could just be solved with Unairu armor strip, which was required for its immunity already. -Primed Redirection, shield rework, and companion rework shifted Excalibur's tankiness away from health+armor and towards shields. -MOA+verglas allows for cold+corrosive+radiation priming, not for [Condition Overload] but for more crit damage, reduced armor, and crowd control while also having a short cooldown shield with [Guardian] and the right configuration. The difference this makes to survivability is huge since it eliminates the need to spam Vazarin/Unairu immunity. -Status rework significantly buffed [Melee Influence]'s viability. That allows almost any melee weapon modded with electric and this arcane to out perform Exalted Blade in base SP. I've even gotten Xoris to get over 1000 kills in 5 minutes on Titan, Saturn solo SP survival (I use that as a benchmark for kills/minute, my Dual Ichor setup and most other melee setups gets in the 500-800 range depending on the tileset). -[Furious Javelin]'s damage scaling on incarnon mode features for weapons like Dual Ichor and Hate Incarnon make their damage viable. In the same endurance mission where I was hitting in excess of 800M Slash Dash hits, my Dual Ichor's clouds were hitting 800k ticks. This was with a +str/+range fissure reward, the normal damage being in the double digits against armored SP grineer, 50-100M unarmored. I hesitate to upload the full build for all to see on the internet, but if you message me in game sometime later today, I'll give you the whole crash course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agall Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 46 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said: best to PM (because the company ruins all popular builds and umbra excal is easy to get) with a screenshot if it's not too much effort. because I like testing everything and excal umbra was my favorite warframe for sp circuit. anyway, it's great that you've spent so long with warframe. as I wrote elsewhere, many warframes can be polished to diamond if you play with them for a long time, experiment a lot and know almost all the finer points. Really the only place Excalibur is lacking is with Radial Javelin's damage. If there's a Chroma in the group, Vex Armor makes Radial Javelin do the damage its supposed to, which is enough to do decent damage against SP enemies (hitting like 300k hits and 50k some slash ticks, not enough to 1 shot but enough to be useful in itself). I should be on most of today, if you /w me in game, I'll link the build. Its honestly nothing crazy in itself, but its the sum of the parts I described above that really seal the deal. I'm not sure how much of it is skill based, but I've had no problem playing it at a mid level while using my Ally X handheld instead of docked at my desk. I would generalize though that it would have a 'high' skill requirement if it were put on a tier list of low-med-high regarding skill required to make a particular build work. Mostly because the actual damage output scales proportionally with your ability to understand movement mechanics and stance combos. Stuff that seems easy to me because I've done it for so long, stretching all the way back to my contagion Nikana Zaw that's still my most used that I would interrupt [Blind Justice]'s forward dash for increased mobility and uptime. I do the same with [Carving Mantis] on Dual Ichor by rolling or Slash Dash. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venus-Venera Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 vor 1 Minute schrieb Agall: Really the only place Excalibur is lacking is with Radial Javelin's damage. If there's a Chroma in the group, Vex Armor makes Radial Javelin do the damage its supposed to, which is enough to do decent damage against SP enemies (hitting like 300k hits and 50k some slash ticks, not enough to 1 shot but enough to be useful in itself). I should be on most of today, if you /w me in game, I'll link the build. Its honestly nothing crazy in itself, but its the sum of the parts I described above that really seal the deal. I'm not sure how much of it is skill based, but I've had no problem playing it at a mid level while using my Ally X handheld instead of docked at my desk. I would generalize though that it would have a 'high' skill requirement if it were put on a tier list of low-med-high regarding skill required to make a particular build work. Mostly because the actual damage output scales proportionally with your ability to understand movement mechanics and stance combos. Stuff that seems easy to me because I've done it for so long, stretching all the way back to my contagion Nikana Zaw that's still my most used that I would interrupt [Blind Justice]'s forward dash for increased mobility and uptime. I do the same with [Carving Mantis] on Dual Ichor by rolling or Slash Dash. I recently changed the message above to "edit: friend request sent ingame. Unfortunately I'm often AFK. But I'll try to reach you there too. ". problem is that I often have to work, so I'm AFK, and hopefully your message won't get lost in the game. because I'm very interested in your build. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorham Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 2 hours ago, Agall said: [Primed Redirection], a properly built MOA+verglas build, Vazarin's shield and void sling immunity (or Unairu for Umbra, works almost the same), CC through damage and killing stuff. Thanks 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorham Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 (edited) 3 hours ago, Agall said: I've even gotten Xoris to get over 1000 kills in 5 minutes on Titan Damn, I can just about manage 500 with Exalted Blade and Tennokai (buffs or not makes no difference). Edited August 30 by Thorham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_Come_With_Guns Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 At least it could be a warframe-type arcane slot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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