I really can't see a reason why exalted weapons don't have access to arcanes.

[MrDugan]

Obviously the two cases that anyone would use to argue against this would be Mesa's Peacemakers and Baruuk's Desert Wind.  So here's the deal there:  What's going to happen?  They're going to kill exactly as fast in the vast majority of content?  They're already overkill for most content.  If the enemy has 100 health and you deal 100k, it doesn't really matter if you bump that up to 200k.  They're just as dead.  They'll also be usable for longer in endurance runs, or be more effective in something like EDA?  Oh no.  The horror.  I really can't see how abilities actually being effective is an issue.  There are regular weapons that are more than capable of handling that content with relative ease.  This would take exalted weapons and put them at the same level as those weapons.  

That's it though.  They're exalted weapons.  They require the same investment, but also require frame investment and they take energy to use.  They should be top tier just from that alone.  What about the other weapons though?  Lord knows Balefire Charger needs help.  Artemis Bow isn't weak (at least with the augment.) but it has a high skill ceiling since it's a bow which means slower and projectile instead of hitscan and it requires headshots for the augment, and it's still not even close to the power of mid-tier meta.  Iron Staff and Exalted Blade are actually much better than people think say they are, but you can compare their stats and kill speed with pretty much any off-the-shelf hybrid melee and they'll barely have better stats while also having no access to arcanes.  Then you have Garuda's claws, which aren't even an exalted weapon at all, but still don't have access.

Considering what weapons, especially incarnons and nemesis type weapons, are capable of this isn't even power creep.  It's bringing weapons that cost energy to use up in line to where they should be.  I'm not saying they're not worth using now.  But they really should be better than they are, just by virtue of what they are.  And I honestly can't see any kind of horrible meta shift happening because of this.  The few that are already really good stay that way, the ones that are good get better and get more in line with stronger weapons and the ones that need help might actually see use.

[Numerounius]

Warframes and acolytes are not compatible. This was established a long time ago.

Exalted weapons cannot use mods like blood rush.

Arcane adapters comes along and the way to get them involves acolytes. Following the above logic it then makes sense exalted weapons don't have them.

Sometime passes and it is possible to do the above without ever interacting with acolytes but the main methods still involve acolytes.

Melee arcane plus adapters comes along. Since they share the same property as regular adapters and as such not able to use on exalted weapons even though they share no direct relationship to acolytes.

So, there are two reasons. The first is that the logic is all sound by the above reasoning. Or the second is that DE has never commented on it so them just not putting it in is a valid reason, they haven't done anything to allude for a different set of circumstances like the scattered justice incident AFAIK.

Edited August 15 by Numerounius

[MrDugan]

10 minutes ago, Numerounius said:

Arcane adapters comes along and the way to get them involves acolytes.

The acolytes drop arcanes, and arcanes themselves are not related to acolytes. They're just a drop source.  There are tons of arcanes that come from other places.  The adapters come from Teshin, Acrithis, and the Cavia.  There's no logic there.  You're making a completely nonsense assertion, and then claiming that it's sound...  Because you said it's sound.  It's not.  Acolytes do not drop adapters.  And before you try it, Steel Essence isn't related to acolytes either.  Its original drop source wasn't acolytes, and it comes from several other sources.  They have nothing to do with the adapters.

Edited August 15 by MrDugan

[AndouRaiton]

There is no official reason we have been told as to why exalted weapons don't have arcane slots. At least, not that I can remember.

Honestly, exalted weapons should be able to use acolyte mods and arcanes, no reason why they shouldn't.

I'm of the opinion that exalted weapons should be one of the best in their weapon category considering they are locked to a specific warframe, take an ability slot and require energy to summon and use.

Some of them are the best in their category, i.e. Baruuk's Desert Wind in the strongest sparring weapon, but several are not, i.e. Hildryn's Bale Fire Charger.

Edited August 15 by AndouRaiton
typos

[quxier]

7 minutes ago, MrDugan said:

Considering what weapons, especially incarnons and nemesis type weapons, are capable of this isn't even power creep.  It's bringing weapons that cost energy to use up in line to where they should be.  I'm not saying they're not worth using now.  But they really should be better than they are, just by virtue of what they are.  And I honestly can't see any kind of horrible meta shift happening because of this.  The few that are already really good stay that way, the ones that are good get better and get more in line with stronger weapons and the ones that need help might actually see use.

What exalted needs is more than "power". Look at Sevagoth's Claws. Powerful exalted: 1.0 follow through, good damage, 38 crit chance, 2.4 crit damage and 24% status chance. Not sure if now but before armor change they could melt a lot of stuff without putting too much mods (I think I got maybe few mods and they just killed group of corrupted heavy gunners, probably high level & sp). However they are boring. I would rather use weaker melees with interesting features & arcanes than this boring yet powerful melee.

 

[Zzeth_2]

I don't think it have something to do with pseudo exalted "rework", but they mention it some time ago with ceramic dagger overuse that they want to do something with pseudo exalted weapons, so I want to think that they plan some interaction atleast 

[Numerounius]

1 hour ago, MrDugan said:

The acolytes drop arcanes, and arcanes themselves are not related to acolytes. They're just a drop source.  There are tons of arcanes that come from other places.  The adapters come from Teshin, Acrithis, and the Cavia.  There's no logic there.  You're making a completely nonsense assertion, and then claiming that it's sound...  Because you said it's sound.  It's not.  Acolytes do not drop adapters.  And before you try it, Steel Essence isn't related to acolytes either.  Its original drop source wasn't acolytes, and it comes from several other sources.  They have nothing to do with the adapters.

Yes, but at the time of release. Steel Essence dropped from Acolytes. And the only weapon arcanes available were the ones from Acolytes, which wouldn't have been able to be equipped following prior Acolyte mod logic. So, it would've been pointless to have an arcane slot for exalted weapons (primaries and secondaries) since they can't equip anything at all at the time of its release.

[MrDugan]

2 minutes ago, Numerounius said:

Yes, but at the time of release. Steel Essence dropped from Acolytes

No it did not.  At the time of release, SE dropped from eximus enemies.  It was changed after people farmed large quantities of it in interception missions.  It was changed to acolytes in order to make them relevant again after the mods they dropped got nerfed and also got other drop sources via deimos.  They were a convenient enemy to throw in for a new drop source for SE to limit farming of it.  The fact that they added weapon arcanes to them was almost guaranteed part of a mitigation of the SE farm nerf complaints.  The adapters do not come from them.  At all.  The adapters come from Teshin originally.  They could have added any field boss to drop SE after that change.  It has nothing to do with acolytes, or their mods.  You're reaching, and it's hilariously bizarre to watch.

Not to mention the fact that the original choice to not let acolyte mods on exalted weapons comes from so long ago that it was nearly a different game.  It's a very old choice that also needs to be revisited as someone else already mentioned.  You're holding onto what is quite possibly one of the flimsiest arguments I've ever seen in this forum over that old design choice.  "Acolytes are a part of the economy involving arcanes and adapters, and therefor this old choice DE made about mods they dropped from back when they were a special event totally applies to them."  That's a wild hill to die on.  Not even getting into the fact that at least half the exalted weapons are melee weapons, and melee arcanes AND adapters have absolutely zero relation to acolytes OR steel path.  Which invalidates the insane notion you're harboring in more than one way.

[Numerounius]

15 minutes ago, MrDugan said:

No it did not.  At the time of release, SE dropped from eximus enemies.  It was changed after people farmed large quantities of it in interception missions.  It was changed to acolytes in order to make them relevant again after the mods they dropped got nerfed and also got other drop sources via deimos.  They were a convenient enemy to throw in for a new drop source for SE to limit farming of it.  The fact that they added weapon arcanes to them was almost guaranteed part of a mitigation of the SE farm nerf complaints.  The adapters do not come from them.  At all.  The adapters come from Teshin originally.  They could have added any field boss to drop SE after that change.  It has nothing to do with acolytes, or their mods.  You're reaching, and it's hilariously bizarre to watch.

I'm talking about at the time of arcane weapon adapters release. Not all the way back to the very beginning. I could be wrong but I'm sure the SE Acolyte change happened at that time.

22 minutes ago, MrDugan said:

The fact that they added weapon arcanes to them was almost guaranteed part of a mitigation of the SE farm nerf complaints.  The adapters do not come from them.

The arcanes dropped from Acolytes. I fail to see how the SE nerf complaints factor into this. If they came from something else originally, then yeah this wouldn't hold up but it doesn't so what else? This part of the reasoning still follows all the way through.

28 minutes ago, MrDugan said:

Not to mention the fact that the original choice to not let acolyte mods on exalted weapons comes from so long ago that it was nearly a different game.  It's a very old choice that also needs to be revisited as someone else already mentioned. 

If they want to change it sure, there's nothing stopping them. DE has made many changes to content, and also haven't touched up changes to content as well. This is still a reason that holds true.

14 minutes ago, MrDugan said:

You're holding onto what is quite possibly one of the flimsiest arguments I've ever seen in this forum over that old design choice.

I'm not? I'm just going through the motions of the lifespan of the content within the game to work out a logical reason. I'll concede if there is official information but until then still reasons that holds up in response to stating there is none. Hence why I offered an alternative reasoning that is just hasn't been talked about officially.

[MrDugan]

15 minutes ago, Numerounius said:

This part of the reasoning still follows all the way through.

It does not follow because you're making a gigantic leap to get from "acolyte mods aren't allowed on exalted weapons" to "acolytes drop some of the arcanes that are available so that means that adapters for those arecanes are totally the same as an acolyte mod, despite the fact that weapon arcanes now come from half a dozen sources that are in no way related to acolytes.  Also despite the fact that the adapters DO NOT COME FROM ACOLYTES."  If they were actually associated with acolytes like you claim, then all arcanes would be as well, and they're not.  A fraction of them are.  That is a massive leap.  It does not follow any real logic.  But you're going to keep asserting that it does despite the complete lack of connection, so I'm done with this.  You're just derailing the thread.

[KRYPTR0N]

16 hours ago, quxier said:

What exalted needs is more than "power". Look at Sevagoth's Claws. Powerful exalted: 1.0 follow through, good damage, 38 crit chance, 2.4 crit damage and 24% status chance. Not sure if now but before armor change they could melt a lot of stuff without putting too much mods (I think I got maybe few mods and they just killed group of corrupted heavy gunners, probably high level & sp). However they are boring. I would rather use weaker melees with interesting features & arcanes than this boring yet powerful melee.

 

Mhm. even when you compare the stances amoung the exalted melees like serene storm to exalted blade. Serene storm has so many interesting interactions with its different combos(and is in my opinion one of the best stances amoung both exalted and non exalted melees), and then you have unga bunga air slash.

[KRYPTR0N]

16 hours ago, Numerounius said:

Warframes and acolytes are not compatible. This was established a long time ago.

Exalted weapons cannot use mods like blood rush.

Arcane adapters comes along and the way to get them involves acolytes. Following the above logic it then makes sense exalted weapons don't have them.

Sometime passes and it is possible to do the above without ever interacting with acolytes but the main methods still involve acolytes.

Melee arcane plus adapters comes along. Since they share the same property as regular adapters and as such not able to use on exalted weapons even though they share no direct relationship to acolytes.

So, there are two reasons. The first is that the logic is all sound by the above reasoning. Or the second is that DE has never commented on it so them just not putting it in is a valid reason, they haven't done anything to allude for a different set of circumstances like the scattered justice incident AFAIK.

Incursions, teshin and cavia....just throwing it out there

[KRYPTR0N]

14 hours ago, MrDugan said:

 "acolyte mods aren't allowed on exalted weapons"

Even then. its obvious DE just did that for the sake of nerfing exalted weapons since the gladiator set mod bonus, which you get from the very first free roam, can also not benefit exalted melees.

[dwqrf]

Il y a 15 heures, MrDugan a dit :

You're reaching, and it's hilariously bizarre to watch.

I actually like it.

Il y a 14 heures, MrDugan a dit :

That is a massive leap.  It does not follow any real logic.

It is a massive leap, but does follow some logic.

I don't mean to agree that "we can't use fully an Exalted weapon because of endgame stuff coming from Acolytes" because we all know that it's either 1) technical issues or 2) power creep stop ; but it's a fun and logical (to some extent) explanation, much tastier to the mind than 1) or 2). Let people think and share, even if you strongly disagree.

[MrDugan]

18 hours ago, dwqrf said:

I actually like it.

It is a massive leap, but does follow some logic.

I don't mean to agree that "we can't use fully an Exalted weapon because of endgame stuff coming from Acolytes" because we all know that it's either 1) technical issues or 2) power creep stop ; but it's a fun and logical (to some extent) explanation, much tastier to the mind than 1) or 2). Let people think and share, even if you strongly disagree.

It isn't logical though.  Is Hydroid a Grineer frame because that's where he drops?  There is no rationale for why adapters would have anything to do with acolytes.  They come from a Dax that acts as our mentor, using a resource that is tied to SP, and not just acolytes.  It's a game mechanic.  They can only be logically tied to acolytes if you perform some olympic level mental gymnastics.

[dwqrf]

il y a 1 minute, MrDugan a dit :

They can only be logically tied to acolytes if you perform some olympic level mental gymnastics.

Space magic mental gymnastic bro. Everything is possible.

[Allback3AC]

Just a couple of minutes ago I was thinking about doing a Chromatic Blade - Melee Influence build on my Excalibur, hoping that the exalted could benefit from the arcane installed on the equipped melee. Tried testing in simulacrum to see if it worked, it unfortunately didn't.
I thought about doing a post in the forums about it and found this one, I'm glad someone is talking about this.
I think in the past it made sense to try keeping exalted weapons from going too far. But now? With incarnons and arcanes it just feels kinda odd to have a Ceramic Dagger outperform a Warframe Ability this much.
I hope something like this can make it in the Unannounced 2024 Update since it should be QoL focused.

[ChaoticOrderly]

I would cite "balance" as a reason but that went clean out the window with melee influence making nearly every single melee a mobile 20m death zone, letting my Loki vastly outkill a Mesa with just Orthos Prime. Also give them the 70 mod cap they deserve.

[B4HEK]

My exalted blade does 200k - 500k damage... My REGULAR Skana does 200k - 500k damage AND procs double status (hello melee duplicate)...

And this comes from a guy who played excal for 4k+ hours... 

Edited August 19 by B4HEK

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

On 2024-08-15 at 11:50 PM, MrDugan said:

That's it though.  They're exalted weapons.  They require the same investment, but also require frame investment and they take energy to use.  They should be top tier just from that alone

I think that's the problem - they would have been OP at the time most of the power creep was introduced.

I agree though...

 

A lot of exalted weapons have been power crept to oblivion, the only exceptions being those that scale strongly with power.

[Thorham]

On 2024-08-19 at 9:37 AM, B4HEK said:

My exalted blade does 200k - 500k damage... My REGULAR Skana does 200k - 500k damage

That sounds iffy.

[Waeleto]

Because of Mesa, that is the only obvious answer imo

DE is afraid of what Mesa will become if they buff exalteds (which are in need of serious buffs)

[MrDugan]

8 hours ago, Waeleto said:

Because of Mesa, that is the only obvious answer imo

DE is afraid of what Mesa will become if they buff exalteds (which are in need of serious buffs)

It's sad that so many can't read anymore.

[Oreades]

I genuinely think that most of the Warframes with Exalted weapons honestly use them as weapons and should be allowed to benefit from Arcanes so I'll gladly upvote this. It is actually quite frustrating to have invested like 6(?) forma into my DexPixia and not be able to use Arcanes.

I don't think Peacemaker ever should have been an Exaulted weapon, it should have remained a Warframe power and then virtually none of the issues against Arcanes on Exalteds ever exist. But at the same time It's hard not to agree that there are so many things that already outclass the potential of Peacemaker with Arcanes that it does feel a bit silly to hold on to that vestage(?) of powercreep to deny the rest of the Exaulted frames from being able to take advantage of Arcanes.

Edited September 12 by Oreades

[MrDugan]

5 hours ago, Oreades said:

I genuinely think that most of the Warframes with Exalted weapons honestly use them as weapons and should be allowed to benefit from Arcanes so I'll gladly upvote this. It is actually quite frustrating to have invested like 6(?) forma into my DexPixia and not be able to use Arcanes.

I don't think Peacemaker ever should have been an Exaulted weapon, it should have remained a Warframe power and then virtually none of the issues against Arcanes on Exalteds ever exist. But at the same time It's hard not to agree that there are so many things that already outclass the potential of Peacemaker with Arcanes that it does feel a bit silly to hold on to that vestage(?) of powercreep to deny the rest of the Exaulted frames from being able to take advantage of Arcanes.

I mean, I addressed this at the start of the post, but I don't understand why everyone goes to Peacemaker/Regulators when something like this is suggested.  What does it change?  The level ceiling for  when they stop being effective?  It's already super high.  They could let us put arcanes on the Regulators, then release a secondary arcane that gives them 4,000% bonus damage and it would not change Mesa's kill speed for the vast majority of the content.  I harp on this all the time when teaching new people modding and they're all obsessed with YT builds and red crits.  If it dies in one hit from 100k damage, 1 million damage will not kill it faster.  But not wasting mod slots to get to 1 million damage (as an example.) WILL allow you to put other mods on weapons and frames that will increase the rate at which you can kill enemies.  Mesa is already strong, and I addressed that.  She'd be strong for a little longer in terms of endurance runs.  That's it.  That's all an arcane on her would do.  It wouldn't move her kill speed at all in something like a regular fissure because it's already capable of being as fast as it's going to get there.

Edited September 12 by MrDugan