New player experience: there is a need for stronger early weapons that will be worth investing into for new players

[kerozen666]

Having started in 2016, i had the chance to have my progression to higher mastery rank in a time where strong weapon could be accessed early and be used as a "fundation" of my arsenal. Now in the last week, i've been helping my friends who are just begining, and realized that since the mastery reshuffle of a few years ago, a new playervery much lack options for that kind of "fundation" weapons. quest do provide great melee options, there is no denying that aside from duviri weapons and modular ones on a technicality, a player's first catalyst and formas have next to no weapon being worth using them on, specificly of the ranged kind. another issue that make the situation trickier is also that a fair amount of the good weapons that get unlocked first are often ones with an upgraded version later on, adding a sensation of potential waste if they invest in the base version 

A good solution to allow player to avoid "wasting" those precious resources early on or have them wait a relatively long time to use them, would be to have some (non primed) weapons that are currently on the higher mr be ranked down, and thus available for new players to accompany them in unlocking the better ones. weapons like the amprex, base corinth, tenora, twin grakatas, and so on, could possibly fit that niche, since they scale well with the mod progression a growing player would experience. 

This is also all said with the knowledge that the initate pack exist, as well as the actually very interesting starter weapon pack, who in this case does exactly that job. This feedback is, however, to argue in favor of not just having a paid pack for this, but also of offering multiple options that will let newcomers explore the large and diverse arsenal we got

Edit: if such weapon change gets implemented, accompanying them with a little icon and small message to guide and inform the players why they are specificly highlighted would greatly reduce early confusion and help understand modding choices. The early game can be very confusing after all

Edited August 20, 2024 by kerozen666
forgot something

[vixenpixel]

Its so wholesome how every post you've been making lately wants to support your family of little smolts. 

Edit: just wanted to add it's really cute and i wish i had a family of smolts too but they grow up so fast.

Edited August 20, 2024 by vixenpixel

[kerozen666]

32 minutes ago, vixenpixel said:

Its so wholesome how every post you've been making lately wants to support your family of little smolts. 

Edit: just wanted to add it's really cute and i wish i had a family of smolts too but they grow up so fast.

it's not just to support mine but everyone's. right now i'm getting the opportunity to experience 2024's new player's progression, which, paired with my own from years ago, let me bring some hard to obtain feedback to the devs. I love the game and want it to see it keep going, and turns out making sure new players stay and go all the way to the end helps quite a lot. And doind that now means making copious amount of feedback post on everythign i notice and make the feedback team sigh as they keep seeing the same name over and over

[S074]

There's plenty of great weapons for low ranks, and they can go very far before they fall off.

In general it's part of any game to shed your early equipment in favour of better one...

The Hek is an extremely good low MR weapon that can dish out crazy damage as it gets better mod through the starchart journey.

You could very well run it up to MR10 without changing it, and by that point you'll have a good amount of options to choose from.

At MR5 they get access to the Tonkor to explode pretty much anything including steel path.

Of course, both have a Kuva version, but they're light years from being bad options to invest to in the early game if you consider how much mileage you can get from them.

Edited August 20, 2024 by S074

[Toa_Ignika]

You mean like the Atomos which is unlocked at mr5 which can easily carry you through the whole Star Chart and that can later be Incarned thanks to the Circuit Steel Path ?

[kerozen666]

20 minutes ago, S074 said:

There's plenty of great weapons for low ranks, and they can go very far before they fall off.

In general it's part of any game to shed your early equipment in favour of better one...

The Hek is an extremely good low MR weapon that can dish out crazy damage as it gets better mod through the starchart journey.

You could very well run it up to MR10 without changing it, and by that point you'll have a good amount of options to choose from.

At MR5 they get access to the Tonkor to explode pretty much anything including steel path.

Of course, both have a Kuva version, but they're light years from being bad options to invest to in the early game if you consider how much mileage you can get from them.

tonkor and hek are indeed great example, but i'd actually knock them down an mr or 2. not to make it too easy, but to kinda make sure very much any player can have access to those type of weapons by the time they get their catalyst BP from the phobos junction. like, we forget that by the time we reach higher mr, but you really don't get far with only 30 mod cap, and that's when those weapon are maxed. At the same time, it's also a "blue potatoes are so precious" problem, since they are so hard to obtain, the last thing you want is a player learning how hard to obtain they are after wasting installing one on the strun or something. Early game confusion is such a nightmare.

 

35 minutes ago, Toa_Ignika said:

You mean like the Atomos which is unlocked at mr5 which can easily carry you through the whole Star Chart and that can later be Incarned thanks to the Circuit Steel Path ?

same apply here too. 

[Bratty_Child]

2 hours ago, kerozen666 said:

like, we forget that by the time we reach higher mr, but you really don't get far with only 30 mod cap

Like a Sobek modded with Point Blank, Hell Chamber, and 90 element dealing 8,300 total damage on headshot(not counting crit because neither you nor I can count) against level 35 Heavy Gunner(13,500 ehp) is not far?

 

Even during their starchart progression they can now get Cannonade mod at Brutus, Uranus. I recommend your friend visit Uranus asap.

 

Hek even has better base damage than Sobek so it should be close to oneshot it with just 30 mod capacity. You can keep your precious orokin reactor.

 

This topic tackles no issue and also brings purchase windows for DE narrower and brings them no benefit. I cannot see how it can proceed any further.

Edited August 21, 2024 by Bratty_Child

[kerozen666]

1 hour ago, Bratty_Child said:

Like a Sobek modded with Point Blank, Hell Chamber, and 90 element dealing 8,300 total damage on headshot(not counting crit because neither you nor I can count) against level 35 Heavy Gunner(13,500 ehp) is not far?

 

Even during their starchart progression they can now get Cannonade mod at Brutus, Uranus. I recommend your friend visit Uranus asap.

 

Hek even has better base damage than Sobek so it should be close to oneshot it with just 30 mod capacity. You can keep your precious orokin reactor.

 

This topic tackles no issue and also brings purchase windows for DE narrower and brings them no benefit. I cannot see how it can proceed any further.

you are right on the fact that you can't count, you lack 5 mod cap on that sobek build (PB 9 + HC 15 + elem 11 = 35), since it lacks any polarity. same for the hek btw. 

as for the cannonade mods, the node where you get them are.... after new war, and i'm absolutly not gonna tell my friends to rush the story just for a mod

also, for the purchase window, i can guarantee you that having something to pump forma on early is a great way to sell said forma, especially when little Newbie timmy didn't craft any yet. belive me, i apent an unconfortable amount of plat on those pack out of impatience in 2016

[Bratty_Child]

Oh, biting, and ignoring the options? Your new player friends going to not be so new player that we would be concerned with.

Somehow forma purchase justify it, despite it being one of the most purchased item in the game, irrespective of weapons access? And they would forma it over buying a reactor, or even wait for nightwave reward? You can keep going on, I'm well intrigued.

Edited August 21, 2024 by Bratty_Child

[kerozen666]

9 hours ago, Bratty_Child said:

Oh, biting, and ignoring the options? Your new player friends going to not be so new player that we would be concerned with.

Somehow forma purchase justify it, despite it being one of the most purchased item in the game, irrespective of weapons access? And they would forma it over buying a reactor, or even wait for nightwave reward? You can keep going on, I'm well intrigued.

ok, mate, please, acting smug is when you make a point, not when you just invented an impossible build and got called out for it. 

[Bratty_Child]

For you, sure. 

[Venus-Venera]

Am 21.8.2024 um 00:02 schrieb kerozen666:

A good solution to allow player to avoid "wasting" those precious resources early on

that's exactly the company's goal. maximum waste of resources. and the best weapons are regularly ruined, then people switch to new junk from the latest update. very cheap and primitive tactics that many other companies have been using for many years.

there's also random content, so players have to pimp as many weapons as possible that they would otherwise never wear.

and the best friend of new accounts is probably the mele weapon. until they build something like Fulmin and change the fire rate to auto in the options. because then there are no problems with ammunition.

[PHOSPHATIDYLETHANOLAMINE]

On 2024-08-21 at 2:26 AM, kerozen666 said:

 the last thing you want is a player learning how hard to obtain they are after wasting installing one on the strun or something.

Helo Lr4 Octantist here: Most used gun right now: Strun.
I do not understand your confusion here.
Just let them play with whatever, it's all tutorial pre-sp anyway afterwards you will only be allowed 1 gun 1 melee. Really not that much, okay, going on corpus this time? Maybe swap mod or 2.
Now I look back to my arsenal and I have memories whenever I look at my guns and theire stats instead of beating everything with just ignis.
Gotva, Ax 52, Vastilok, Vericres. Almost every year there is something to get you started even free prime frames with it.

Maybe I understood your post wrong but what you want is some sort of Stamp of Approval (this is good for beginners, pick it and you wont regret forming Stug).
Inb4 Stug Incarnon be best thing in the universe 10 years later and so on.

Anyways, why Broken Scepter is bad? Dont want to Xoris Orvius? Ofcourse not, you want to pick stuff you like, not the best, not something to ease out the game. It ends so soon after all, cherish those moments man.
As a squad leader you should rather lead them the proper course:
1. Forget about relics
2. Do the quests
3. Hang out in Cetus, do your syndicates, forge zaw/kitguns,
4. Join research clan, get companions - Finish starchart 
Always have lich/sister on.

Do this in wrong order and you end up nuking rat nests. Listen to Vay Hek

[kerozen666]

2 hours ago, PHOSPHATIDYLETHANOLAMINE said:

Helo Lr4 Octantist here: Most used gun right now: Strun.
I do not understand your confusion here.
Just let them play with whatever, it's all tutorial pre-sp anyway afterwards you will only be allowed 1 gun 1 melee. Really not that much, okay, going on corpus this time? Maybe swap mod or 2.
Now I look back to my arsenal and I have memories whenever I look at my guns and theire stats instead of beating everything with just ignis.
Gotva, Ax 52, Vastilok, Vericres. Almost every year there is something to get you started even free prime frames with it.

Maybe I understood your post wrong but what you want is some sort of Stamp of Approval (this is good for beginners, pick it and you wont regret forming Stug).
Inb4 Stug Incarnon be best thing in the universe 10 years later and so on.

Anyways, why Broken Scepter is bad? Dont want to Xoris Orvius? Ofcourse not, you want to pick stuff you like, not the best, not something to ease out the game. It ends so soon after all, cherish those moments man.
As a squad leader you should rather lead them the proper course:
1. Forget about relics
2. Do the quests
3. Hang out in Cetus, do your syndicates, forge zaw/kitguns,
4. Join research clan, get companions - Finish starchart 
Always have lich/sister on.

Do this in wrong order and you end up nuking rat nests. Listen to Vay Hek

you understood a bit wrong, but are not that far.

my hope is to have those seals, but most importantly, to have the stronger weaposn be a bit more spread out in the lower masteries rather than only the "higher" ones. It's both as a way to guide new (and very confuesed, we're talkign about warframe after all) players on building and gearing, but also to let them actually play at their own pace and do what's most fun early without having to worry about having gear to keep up too much. seeing everyone talk about X or Y gun that is mr 10 or something will only encourage players  to rush through the leveling process, and skip on doing the early stuff at a pleasant pace. letting then have a gun that is "pretty good" at low Mr would then make those mr10+ weapon not as pressing to get, since they got a weapon that is presented to them as "this bad boy is strong enough to not need that mr 10 weapon right for a while"

it's very much in the spirit of letting players enjoy those early MR.

on that note tho, you mention forgetting about relics. but sadly, the way the game currently is kind of doesn't allow to completly forget them  without impeding your future progress. The reason is Baro. baro's inventory is full of fun knick knacks that a new player don't have to worry about... and there's the primed mods. thos little things are mods thay they should not have to worry about at all, but because the trader work the way he does, keeping your ducats ready is the only way you can be sure to have access to those mods when you are ready to take them on without relying on using your precious plat. that tho is another subject, and one the devs should probably adress eventually

[PHOSPHATIDYLETHANOLAMINE]

19 hours ago, kerozen666 said:

it's very much in the spirit of letting players enjoy those early MR.

on that note tho, you mention forgetting about relics. but sadly, the way the game currently is kind of doesn't allow to completly forget them  without impeding your future progress. The reason is Baro. baro's inventory is full of fun knick knacks that a new player don't have to worry about... and there's the primed mods. thos little things are mods thay they should not have to worry about at all, but because the trader work the way he does, keeping your ducats ready is the only way you can be sure to have access to those mods when you are ready to take them on without relying on using your precious plat. that tho is another subject, and one the devs should probably adress eventually

because then it's just merciless relic runs on repeat all over and over again.
Did you ever count how many dukats all parts + baro mods actually cost? A LOT.

mr1 gun for 1 mission, mr2 gun for 2 missions, mr3 for 3 missions.
Two weeks and you are mr 10 from there variety is very vast and why would anyone choose to decide whether they'd want prime version of something before finding out even what a hitscans is. I'm losing tracks of what the post is all about now.

I dont know much about how your playthough went but I think some people want it this way and others like it that way.
See there is nothing wrong with really liking the look of one particular gun only to find out it shoots confetti and for the most part you wont even see it since there is WHOLE 2 SHOTGUN SKINS.

Regular Path is easy enough to for any gun and no need to mod it even. Too easy too early too strong too fast gets Nukor gets bored.
What do you suggest? Removing mr requirement completely? Sure I dont see a point for them being there in the firstplace anyway. Except for Obviosuly baby mode ignises and stuff but snipers? Why

[Venus-Venera]

Am 27.8.2024 um 15:00 schrieb PHOSPHATIDYLETHANOLAMINE:

Regular Path is easy enough to for any gun and no need to mod it even. Too easy too early too strong too fast gets Nukor gets bored.
What do you suggest? Removing mr requirement completely? Sure I dont see a point for them being there in the firstplace anyway. Except for Obviosuly baby mode ignises and stuff but snipers? Why

then almost all of the Warframe content would be pointless. then I can play with an ancient normal necros from 2013 and a good weapon. I don't need the rest of the items at all because they have terrible performance.

mr is one of the few motivating factors to unlock all of this stuff in the first place. of course that has nothing to do with skill or whatever.

[PHOSPHATIDYLETHANOLAMINE]

1 hour ago, Venus-Venera said:

then almost all of the Warframe content would be pointless. then I can play with an ancient normal necros from 2013 and a good weapon. I don't need the rest of the items at all because they have terrible performance.

mr is one of the few motivating factors to unlock all of this stuff in the first place. of course that has nothing to do with skill or whatever.

Yes. You dont need more than 1 gun 1 melee. Exactly.
You can unlock them if you want but it's not necessary past certain point: really, getting to mr30 is not that big of a deal. Locking stuff before mr15? You probably skipped important parts of the game.

Mastery Rank might not be a perfect indicator of skill but we can all agree Lr4 is likely more experienced and with experience comes practice, practice equals skill and improvement.
Ofcourse. There will be more acknowledged mr10s in the game than I was at mr14. Honestly at that point I didnt even understood most of it, how it plays what things do or anything. I was too preocuppied with the actual game and it was actually nice to not know everything. If I wanted to I could learn but it doesnt mean I should be lied to in Q&A no?

All of the Warframe content IS pointless. If you are not having fun with it then find a diffirent game. Nope there is no other fun games and some companies make sure it stays as low as possible. Afterall it's all fun and games but not for you, you just grind all then unistall we get your things.
All of Warframe lets me is to do cool stuff. I dont care about grind, it is fun but rewards passive "efficient" methods rather than simply: FUN.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb PHOSPHATIDYLETHANOLAMINE:

Yes. You dont need more than 1 gun 1 melee. Exactly.
You can unlock them if you want but it's not necessary past certain point: really, getting to mr30 is not that big of a deal. Locking stuff before mr15? You probably skipped important parts of the game.

Mastery Rank might not be a perfect indicator of skill but we can all agree Lr4 is likely more experienced and with experience comes practice, practice equals skill and improvement.
Ofcourse. There will be more acknowledged mr10s in the game than I was at mr14. Honestly at that point I didnt even understood most of it, how it plays what things do or anything. I was too preocuppied with the actual game and it was actually nice to not know everything. If I wanted to I could learn but it doesnt mean I should be lied to in Q&A no?

All of the Warframe content IS pointless. If you are not having fun with it then find a diffirent game. Nope there is no other fun games and some companies make sure it stays as low as possible. Afterall it's all fun and games but not for you, you just grind all then unistall we get your things.
All of Warframe lets me is to do cool stuff. I dont care about grind, it is fun but rewards passive "efficient" methods rather than simply: FUN.

Very good and difficult question. It's not that easy to explain. Like many others, I've been leg4 for a long time. And I not only have all the weapons (except the last Twitch drop), I've pimped more than 60% and spent many months in simulation. So I do have a lot of experience and know very good synergies.
For me, skill is more about reaction, memory, understanding of the game, etc. However, understanding of the game can come from observation in the game or reading on the internet. And I've seen more than enough leg3+ accounts with 1k hours of play. And an mr14 with 2k hours of play would also be a top player, because he probably has expert knowledge with his class and maybe has simply seen through the company's business model and won't run after a carrot like a donkey. Although with 2k hours you would probably build a lot and trade on the side, so you'd probably be leg4 yesterday.

[PHOSPHATIDYLETHANOLAMINE]

ctrl+f: ?should be lied to in Q&A no?

12 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

Very good and difficult question.

Account details. Personal opinions and beliefs.
+ adds noob tips to seemingly stay on topic in case of control.

Stronger early weapons DO NOT EXIST - see ignis. Mr diff ban.
You can have questions, I can have answers.
Respect both, improve both. Explain why and how.
Spoiled, corrupted, deranged.
Stay true, keep mk1 Braton, at least it's an fps, enjoy improving your aim. Quartakk best gun.

Edited August 28, 2024 by PHOSPHATIDYLETHANOLAMINE

[kerozen666]

On 2024-08-27 at 9:00 AM, PHOSPHATIDYLETHANOLAMINE said:

What do you suggest? Removing mr requirement completely? 

missing the point of the whole feedback. 

i don'T want mr removed, i want to see good weaposn come earlier so that new player will have things that are not warframe they can feel confortable being attached to and invest in, thus getting them hooked on the game more. the MR grind makes you got though so many weapons that you end up feeling lost and like you have a "liminal" arsenal. Thus, having one weapon that can accompany you and see you grop across the other mr is nice, it makes you feel grounded.

the only other alternative to doing that would be to have weapon like the dex ones, who would have to be available at all time. they are decent yet not incredible, BUT comes with catalysts, letting them serves as perfect "fundation" weapon to your mr grind, always being ready to get you through a tough mission your current foddrrs can't handle without a catalized build or forma

Edited August 28, 2024 by kerozen666
missed a thing

[Fred_Avant_2019]

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Ignis

This is as early as MR5 in the dojo and only needs Serration to demolish normal star chart.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Kohm

Same with this, same MR.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Tonkor

Same again, same MR.

 

Don't give me the "new MR weapons are so bad" thing. Or "you shouldn't invest in them".

All three I listed do have upgraded versions, yes, but you can get by for basically all the game can throw at you with them, if you're actually willing to double the mod capacity and invest formas into them. Lower stats hinder them, yes, but considering how they're available right off the market or dojo (in the base ignis' case), it's only fair. And with the same exact config, you probably won't even be able to tell much of a difference, even in base steel path because of how a oneshot is still a oneshot anyway.

 

Newcomers probably don't do the right things, but I believe it's as simple as Natural Selection. If you can read you get to the next level, if you don't, sucks to be you I guess.

[dwqrf]

Le 21/08/2024 à 00:02, kerozen666 a dit :

adding a sensation of potential waste if they invest in the base version

Or you know, they may just invest in mods, and use only a few of them on any weapons and walk through the star chart like butter ; without the need to actually format or catalyzed any of the normal weapons. If they wish to because their heart tell them to, they can, and therfore, it's not a waste, but it's far from being mandatory.

[kerozen666]

9 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Or you know, they may just invest in mods, and use only a few of them on any weapons and walk through the star chart like butter ; without the need to actually format or catalyzed any of the normal weapons. If they wish to because their heart tell them to, they can, and therfore, it's not a waste, but it's far from being mandatory.

i'd be 100% agreeing with you if it wasn't that most basic early mods cost a lot of mod capacity. for rifles, maxed serration is 16, 90% elemental is 11, multishot is 15. unless you get some crit weapons, which are not common early on, you're not gonna be able to pack much early on on anything. and that's without the big issue: low mr player have little to no starting mod capacity. once they can put power on their weapon, it's when it's maxed, but considering they need to make space for the one they are crafting due to low mod space, they might not actually take the time to mod them properly and will rather discard them.

[kerozen666]

42 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Ignis

This is as early as MR5 in the dojo and only needs Serration to demolish normal star chart.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Kohm

Same with this, same MR.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Tonkor

Same again, same MR.

 

Don't give me the "new MR weapons are so bad" thing. Or "you shouldn't invest in them".

All three I listed do have upgraded versions, yes, but you can get by for basically all the game can throw at you with them, if you're actually willing to double the mod capacity and invest formas into them. Lower stats hinder them, yes, but considering how they're available right off the market or dojo (in the base ignis' case), it's only fair. And with the same exact config, you probably won't even be able to tell much of a difference, even in base steel path because of how a oneshot is still a oneshot anyway.

 

Newcomers probably don't do the right things, but I believe it's as simple as Natural Selection. If you can read you get to the next level, if you don't, sucks to be you I guess.

question, do you actually know how long it takes to get to mr 5? for someone crafting constantly, it's 5 days. but, if you are completly new and unguided? about 19 weapons(you get 6k mastery from your starter frame). those 19 weapons will take a long while to level and just grind for. make them mr3 and you got me all in (hell, it's my point, make good weapon available early so they can become premium training wheels for newcomers)

Also, saying you want to rely on natural selection on a game that is notoriously confusing to new player is how you get a dwindling playerbase. Warframe would have not gotten where it is if it wasn't for the community guiding newcomers,

[dwqrf]

il y a 2 minutes, kerozen666 a dit :

question, do you actually know how long it takes to get to mr 5? for someone crafting constantly, it's 5 days. but, if you are completly new and unguided? about 19 weapons(you get 6k mastery from your starter frame). those 19 weapons will take a long while to level and just grind for.

Do you know about mk1 weapons and other Braton and Strun you can buy for credits in arsenal ?