How would you feel about removing firerate from Wisp motes?

[vFlitz]

Limbo is virtually extinct from obsolescence. Frost globes no longer block projectiles. Frames with no shields got a free pass for using Hunter Adrenaline even when someone puts Overguard on them.

But one frame with an annoying ability remains, and it's a very popular one. Wisp.

Extra firerate may be a DPS increase, but, unlike most DPS increases, it's not without drawbacks. On a fair number of weapons, particularly beam and incarnon ones, Wisp's speed mote takes away the ability to use your resources efficiently. It's incredibly frustrating and there's nothing you can do about it short of ensuring you always stay away from the Wisp player and avoiding placed motes like it's an obstacle course. Suffice to say, less than ideal.

The positive solution would be to add an equal amount ammo efficiency buff to speed motes, but I don't see Wisp getting any buffs considering how popular she is (although, in my opinion, she's quite overrated and has aged poorly from her glory days). So I'm curious what people think; Is the firerate buff actually important to Wisp players, or is it a mere inconsequential afterthought? Is it worth keeping around at the expense of people it hinders?

[kadlis12]

So, you want to eliminate the only innate damage buff Wisp has? That is a massive nerf you are talking about.

Edited September 3 by kadlis12

[Quest]

The Frost and Hunter Adrenaline stuff are buffs. What you are proposing is a nerf.

[quxier]

37 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

 

The positive solution would be to add an equal amount ammo efficiency buff to speed motes, but I don't see Wisp getting any buffs considering how popular she is (although, in my opinion, she's quite overrated and has aged poorly from her glory days). So I'm curious what people think; Is the firerate buff actually important to Wisp players, or is it a mere inconsequential afterthought? Is it worth keeping around at the expense of people it hinders?

What if you give that stuff to teammates. Maybe balance it etc. I've made topic about such buff... dunno name.

[vFlitz]

16 minutes ago, kadlis12 said:

So, you want to eliminate the only innate damage buff Wisp has? That is a massive nerf you are talking about.

Breach Surge is a far greater increase to damage output than a firerate buff could ever hope to be. While I understand people not liking using it much due to how spammy you have to be with it, it's not exactly something that should be ignored when making an argument.

And it can easily be argued that a Wisp unwittingly discharging her teammates' incarnons and Ocucors at the speed of light is an enormous damage output decrease for the entire team.

14 minutes ago, Quest said:

The Frost and Hunter Adrenaline stuff are buffs. What you are proposing is a nerf.

As I've mentioned, the firerate could be offset with ammo efficiency but I don't see Wisp getting such buffs with her usage rate. Could always replace the firerate with something else, what I don't particularly care as long as it's not something with equal potential to be detrimental.

[Ventura_Highway]

27 minutes ago, kadlis12 said:

So, you want to eliminate the only innate damage buff Wisp has? That is a massive nerf you are talking about.

Spitballing but I think it's possible to replace the fire rate buff with a "multihit" buff, basically making it so that there's a certain chance one shot/swing counts as two, effectively making the buff increase Fire Rate in a sense without being disruptive.

[Quest]

14 minutes ago, Ventura_Highway said:

Spitballing but I think it's possible to replace the fire rate buff with a "multihit" buff, basically making it so that there's a certain chance one shot/swing counts as two, effectively making the buff increase Fire Rate in a sense without being disruptive.

This would be cool

Or just change it to multishot

[vFlitz]

7 minutes ago, Quest said:

This would be cool

Or just change it to multishot

Multishot would be quite cool actually, IIRC currently only Octavia is able to provide one and there's some fun shenanigans you can do with a multishot buff and projectile melees like Quassus 

[Ventura_Highway]

51 minutes ago, Quest said:

This would be cool

Or just change it to multishot

I'm not sure, because this Wisp's motes also boost melee swing speed and I'm a little concerned about how Fire Rate will translate into Multishot in practice.

It's mostly the math, I should say. Like, if I add +50% Multishot onto a weapon, versus making it fire 50% faster, in both situations, in a vacuum they end up delivering the same amount of ordinance, just that the 50% Multishot is more controllable, but as we all know, Galvanized mods make it so that getting high amounts of Multishot is easy. It's less impactful to go from 230%->280% Multishot compared to 1->1.5x Fire Rate.

Edited September 3 by Ventura_Highway

[KitMeHarder]

5 hours ago, vFlitz said:

The positive solution would be to add an equal amount ammo efficiency buff to speed motes

This wouldn't affect incarnons regardless.

Since day one I thought shock motes should also buff reload speed. They're also the only mote that only provides one buff/thing, as well as it just makes sense in order for the fire rate to be a 100% buff.

[vFlitz]

13 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

This wouldn't affect incarnons regardless.

Since day one I thought shock motes should also buff reload speed. They're also the only mote that only provides one buff/thing, as well as it just makes sense in order for the fire rate to be a 100% buff.

Good point. Sadly, reload speed doesn't really help them either, mode switch animation length is far less limiting than the time spent recharging incarnon juice, even on torid which has it a lot easier.

In the past shock motes used to be the most annoying of the bunch due to how they disrupted enemy movement in defense missions for example, but these days it seems most people have such a wide variety of mass destruction options that it hardly matters anymore. I suppose the same will inevitably happen to speed motes when the meta shifts away from incarnons and beam weapons, but there's no signs of it happening anytime soon.

[Raarsi]

20 hours ago, Ventura_Highway said:

I'm not sure, because this Wisp's motes also boost melee swing speed and I'm a little concerned about how Fire Rate will translate into Multishot in practice.

If you're swinging faster with a melee weapon, wouldn't that also be considered "multishot" for melee?

I'm personally opposed to removing the fire rate mote from Wisp, but mostly because I'm a doofus and I like seeing my machine guns turn into non-chaining beam weapons.

[NinjaZeku]

On 2024-09-03 at 10:38 PM, vFlitz said:

there's nothing you can do about it

Sure you can. Stop holding down the fire button, use it in moderation.

That said, there have been requests in the past about a list of buffs given by allies,
letting you individually choose which will affect you and which won't, something like that I wouldn't be against.

[vFlitz]

8 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

Sure you can. Stop holding down the fire button, use it in moderation.

Yeah, as if I wasn't doing that already. There's a bare minimum of ammo you'll spend per trigger pull, and firerate always increases that minimum. With beams you can't always afford to merely tap because they start at 30% damage and need continued fire for a moment to ramp up to full, a moment that isn't shortened by firerate. You can't do anything about the buff making you spend more ammo.

8 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

That said, there have been requests in the past about a list of buffs given by allies,
letting you individually choose which will affect you and which won't, something like that I wouldn't be against.

Sadly unlikely to happen as it would have to be actively maintained with every new frame release, and even some augments, on top of implementing an entirely new system for it. To get something of that scale to happen you need half of the playerbase asking for it.

[_Anise_]

If a weapon normally fires 1 shot per second and deals 100 damage per shot, it would do 260 DPS with 100% Multishot and a 30% Haste buff. On the other hand, with 130% Multishot, it would only hit 230 DPS.

So, if Wisp's Haste buff were switched to a Multishot effect, it would be a nerf because Haste effectively 'double dips' with Multishot. At least when comparing Haste speed to Multishot in a vacuum, the Haste buff provides a more significant damage boost.

[PollexMessier]

On 2024-09-06 at 11:44 PM, _Anise_ said:

If a weapon normally fires 1 shot per second and deals 100 damage per shot, it would do 260 DPS with 100% Multishot and a 30% Haste buff. On the other hand, with 130% Multishot, it would only hit 230 DPS.

So, if Wisp's Haste buff were switched to a Multishot effect, it would be a nerf because Haste effectively 'double dips' with Multishot. At least when comparing Haste speed to Multishot in a vacuum, the Haste buff provides a more significant damage boost.

On 2024-09-03 at 3:06 PM, Ventura_Highway said:

I'm not sure, because this Wisp's motes also boost melee swing speed and I'm a little concerned about how Fire Rate will translate into Multishot in practice.

It's mostly the math, I should say. Like, if I add +50% Multishot onto a weapon, versus making it fire 50% faster, in both situations, in a vacuum they end up delivering the same amount of ordinance, just that the 50% Multishot is more controllable, but as we all know, Galvanized mods make it so that getting high amounts of Multishot is easy. It's less impactful to go from 230%->280% Multishot compared to 1->1.5x Fire Rate.

This is only if the boost was additive. It could be Multiplicative tho.

Additive 50% would be your current multishot + 50% (So say your current multishot is 300%, you get 350%)
Multiplicative 50% would be your current mutishot x 1.5 (Starting at 300% here would put you at 450%)

Not that I agree at all that wisp should have her fire rate buff nerfed/changed anyways. I really like it and it's a godsend for slow-firing weapons.

In my opinion. If wisp's firerate buff is causing issues with certain weapons... maybe it's the weapons' fault, and that's what needs to be fixed.

Edited September 9 by PollexMessier

[Azamagon]

I both love and hate Wisp adding fire rate. When I can add it myself (ie I'm the Wisp player), then it feels amazing, cuz im in control of the weapons im applying it to, and how i mod the motes.

Notably, I don't go bonkers with ability strength, which also makes (I hope) my teammates not be so annoyed by the motes i put down.

But most Wisp players I encounter seem to go all in on strength, and I almost always HATE the fire rate buff then, it just becomes uncontrollably fast - to the point where I agreed with the OP that it is more of a nerf than a buff.

However, I have a "bandaidy" idea on how to handle this issue somewhat:

Change the Semi-Rifle/Shotgun/Pistol Cannonade mods into simply Rifle/Shotgun/Pistol Cannonade instead, (ie making those mods applicable to ANY weapon). That way, we can opt out of fire rate buffs from outside sources too, such as by Wisp's motes.

Heck, you could even add a melee-equivalent, call it something like Giant's Strength, which adds a big damage bonus and maybe increases combo chance, but also makes melee attack speed unmoddable.

Edited September 7 by Azamagon
Spelling

[_Anise_]

8 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

Multiplicative 50% would be your current mutishot x 1.5 (Starting at 300% here would put you at 450%)

 its a good point though as far as I know there aren't any sources of multiplicative multi-shot in the game? (not to say they can't add some)

anyway to go back to the main topic, maybe it would be cool if the electric mote also gave ammo efficiency to offset the extra ammo hast buff ate.

yeah if people think haste is an issue fix it with a buff instead of a nerf!

Edited September 7 by _Anise_

[Waeleto]

This has to be rage bait lol

[PsiWarp]

Much rather they add a contextual prompt at the Reservoir pod "Release Mote", so you can press X and that Reservoir pod will take back its Mote and never give you one until you press X on it again.

This solves the frecking long range Shock Motes slowing Defenses down, and the unwanted Haste Motes messing up player's movement andweapon fire timing.

[vFlitz]

On 2024-09-07 at 8:44 AM, _Anise_ said:

If a weapon normally fires 1 shot per second and deals 100 damage per shot, it would do 260 DPS with 100% Multishot and a 30% Haste buff. On the other hand, with 130% Multishot, it would only hit 230 DPS.

But the multishot comes with no downsides, while firerate comes with the price of more frequent reloads/recharges/running out of ammo entirely. Single clip burst dps isn't the only metric that matters.

On 2024-09-07 at 11:02 AM, Azamagon said:

Change the Semi-Rifle/Shotgun/Pistol Cannonade mods into simply Rifle/Shotgun/Pistol Cannonade instead, (ie making those mods applicable to ANY weapon). That way, we can opt out of fire rate buffs from outside sources too, such as by Wisp's motes.

While I'd love that, I imagine there's some specific meta weapons that DE wanted to exclude from them by restricting it to semi-auto weapons. Admittedly many builds don't use damage mods in the first place because of arcanes, but there probably are cases where it'd be used but the weapon really doesn't need a power bump.

23 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

Much rather they add a contextual prompt at the Reservoir pod "Release Mote", so you can press X and that Reservoir pod will take back its Mote and never give you one until you press X on it again.

This solves the frecking long range Shock Motes slowing Defenses down, and the unwanted Haste Motes messing up player's movement andweapon fire timing.

Not a bad idea, the only caveat is some Wisps use the multi-reservoir augment and I don't think there's a case of anyone not wanting the health motes.. except maybe for a scenario where someone has a lot of shield generation, a healing ability and uses combat discipline to be able to reliably trigger Archon Intensify.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 17 heures, Waeleto a dit :

This has to be rage bait lol

I wish it had been all rage bait, unfortunately I think they're dead serious.

 

Comments like "Overrated" and "Aged poorly" are priceless.

It's crazy how if you're not a Revenant with Torid Incarnon / SlamWukong you're judged "not meta" these days.

People keep complaining about things they have rightfully no control over : other players' loadouts.

 

If you're playing on public, then it's a team game. Deal with what that implies. Or y'know. Solo's a thing. Tired of Rev leeches? Go solo. Want to go explore when everyone's already waiting tapping their watches with a frowning face? Go solo. It's not that difficult. If you don't want to deal with random pubsquad stereotypes, you have an option for that. No need to go all the way making pointless balancing changes just to satisfy the 0.0003% loud minority crying about shooting 600 Burston Incarnon bullets faster than their short attention span.

 

[vFlitz]

24 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

I wish it had been all rage bait, unfortunately I think they're dead serious.

And yet you seem quite outraged, ironically.

25 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Comments like "Overrated" and "Aged poorly" are priceless.

Yeah, you can pretend not to see the writing on the wall, doesn't mean it's not there. Wisp released and gained traction in a time when some health regen, arcane guardian and adaptation were a sufficient solution to stay alive in most scenarios. But now we have content that's a bit more demanding than entry level Steel Path and so we also have Wisps dying like flies because they think their health motes will still protect them.

Wisp has other tools, yes. But the most upvoted comment in this thread, claiming that the firerate is her only source of damage increase when both Breach Surge and the combo of her passive and Contagion/Innodem exist, is peak comedy and says all you need to know. Most people only know how to pump strength and spam motes and that is, in fact, overrated. I see more Wisps than Revenants and Wukongs combined. And say what you will about Wukong slammers, at least they use their tools efficiently.

41 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

People keep complaining about things they have rightfully no control over : other players' loadouts.

If they can exert control over my loadout by jamming unwanted firerate into it, then I can and will complain about theirs. What comes around goes around, after all.

[CoffeeElemental]

I would say "i'd be glad", but it's a bit complicated.

I really think that you don't need such ridiculous fire rate/attack speed and move speed most of the time. Until you you do. In stuff like SP Plague Star, The Fragmented One, Defection or Deep Archemedia Wisp (or Haste Mote specifically) can be invaluable. But in regular gameplay I personally hate that sht.

There's a possible solution tho - beg DE to add Cannonade-like mods for all types of weapons, melee included.

[kadlis12]

4 hours ago, vFlitz said:

Wisp has other tools, yes. But the most upvoted comment in this thread, claiming that the firerate is her only source of damage increase when both Breach Surge and the combo of her passive and Contagion/Innodem exist, is peak comedy and says all you need to know.

I will bite: My comment said "Damage Buff". And that is a different category to survival stuff, control, or actual damage dealing. Did I say Wisp is useless? No. I claimed that in her repertoire is only one damage buff - Attack Speed. If you think that is a comedy, ok. But it is a fact.