I never understood why tragedy had to be nerfed This way, it still feels very dysfunctional.

[Prof-Dante]

I never understood why it has that long base range in the first place.

You see, Tragedy need dots to nuke, and dots need priming and priming needs your real-time literal line of sight, unless you use a 30 meter aoe weapon, good luck with that, or a random projectile like Cedo.

Whatever you do, you will never get the full 30 meter nuke, except the initial damage which deals no status procs.
pageflight doesn't attack every enemy within 30 meters.

it's like Lavos' fourth ability, it's effective range is much smaller than what's written because the probes expand and disperse, In Dante's case, your real life line of sight prevents you from Nuking all enemies within 30 meters.

you can go try 360-ing Dark verse, I bet it's fun...

So Instead of nerfing Dante's unnecessary big range, you added completely unnecessary layers of line of sight checks on top of each other...why not reduce the range to the appropriate amount?
I never nuke farther than 20 meters, and I rarely focus on nuking enemies behind me, it's always me hitting enemies with heat procs from Noctua, and then use tragedy to condense the procs.

it's a whole 30 meter of absolutely nothing, and it's the one verse I rarely ever use with Dante, because my Noctua does the entire Job for me.

 

 

in fact, this Tragedy syndrome is so annoying to me I haven't been playing this frame for a long time, he was supposed to be a perfect balance between Defense and offense, now he's more or less an Overguard generator.

Edited September 5 by Prof-Dante

[dwqrf]

Dante isn't Tragedy.

He is Love.

Don't be that Dramatic.

[quxier]

4 hours ago, Prof-Dante said:

Whatever you do, you will never get the full 30 meter nuke, except the initial damage which deals no status procs.

But you may get pretty close to that.

Let's get few thing before. It was time before armor strip nerf (less hp). It affects heat/toxin/slash from all sources.

 

I don't have any videos testing his potential at that time (in group). Do you?

So from my anecdotal experience, it worked pretty well.

 

4 hours ago, Prof-Dante said:

So Instead of nerfing Dante's unnecessary big range, you added completely unnecessary layers of line of sight checks on top of each other...why not reduce the range to the appropriate amount?

So what's appropriate amount? I bet it's something like 25 maybe 20. DE might go with 15. Then you start with basic but boring&horrible "let's put more range". You put something like Overextended so you need more strength for other abilities as well (at least for 1st). You compensate with strength from other source. You end up as another very rigid frame where half of mod is just for that 1 stat to be great and other "ok". Put no Range and you may end up as OG sevagoth that have done nothing with 1+2 on low strength.

We would be "in bad state" one way or another. I would prefer that I can do something "in game" to compensate than "yeah, build frame and that's it". They have destroyed all that kind of interaction with Disarming Xaku (roll a lot with smaller rolls and disarm enemies with 2nd; now it's just BRRRRR with 2nd).

Is it perfect? Nah.

 

 

[Crevab]

I would've preferred a no-LoS base range of 15m but after the screeching his last adjustments generated there's no way they're touching him again unless absolutely necessary

[Kaiga]

I don't think dante is just tragedy at all. 

He can be flexibly built a number of ways with helminth subsumes, as a team buffer or weapons platform, I hardly ever use tragedy because everything dies too quickly to Dante with everyone's buffs going at once. 

He's still of the better frames in the game just on that alone.

Edited September 5 by Kaiga

[AzureTerra]

The only tragedy with Dante is the limit of three owls

[Lord_Chibi]

11 hours ago, Prof-Dante said:

I never understood why it has that long base range in the first place.

You see, Tragedy need dots to nuke, and dots need priming and priming needs your real-time literal line of sight, unless you use a 30 meter aoe weapon, good luck with that, or a random projectile like Cedo.

Whatever you do, you will never get the full 30 meter nuke, except the initial damage which deals no status procs.
pageflight doesn't attack every enemy within 30 meters.

it's like Lavos' fourth ability, it's effective range is much smaller than what's written because the probes expand and disperse, In Dante's case, your real life line of sight prevents you from Nuking all enemies within 30 meters.

you can go try 360-ing Dark verse, I bet it's fun...

So Instead of nerfing Dante's unnecessary big range, you added completely unnecessary layers of line of sight checks on top of each other...why not reduce the range to the appropriate amount?
I never nuke farther than 20 meters, and I rarely focus on nuking enemies behind me, it's always me hitting enemies with heat procs from Noctua, and then use tragedy to condense the procs.

it's a whole 30 meter of absolutely nothing, and it's the one verse I rarely ever use with Dante, because my Noctua does the entire Job for me.

 

 

in fact, this Tragedy syndrome is so annoying to me I haven't been playing this frame for a long time, he was supposed to be a perfect balance between Defense and offense, now he's more or less an Overguard generator.

He got nerfed because you can nuke everything in a room while only needing to fly around, him nuking through walls was extremely op...
 

Edited September 5 by Lord_Chibi

[KitMeHarder]

Dante got this janky nerf because he was nuking stuff like level 25 defense missions, as Reb all but confirmed it in a DevShort. And all of it could have been easily fixed by having Tragedy's base damage be only 5 and removing the stagger. 

But at the very least, Tragedy's janky half-death and it's subsequent uproar made DE redo the LoS check system for select other abilities. Buffing them from being very janky, to just janky.

8 minutes ago, Lord_Chibi said:

him nuking through walls was extremely op...

If you're playing in missions where 6,500 damage is considered "OP", you should probably focus on progressing the game and not worrying about what's OP and what's not. Cause I'll tell you, it's not.

[Prof-Dante]

11 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Don't be that Dramatic.

What is overdramatic is the tragedy nerf and line of sight.

7 hours ago, quxier said:

I don't have any videos testing his potential at that time (in group). Do you?

the only time I managed to nuke something with this ability is if they enemy had armor low enough to be killed by his 6,500 damage, same as any other nuke ability that does the same, there is no difference between nuking with Tragedy and nuking with Radial javelin, if both didn't have additional perks.

6 hours ago, Kaiga said:

I don't think dante is just tragedy at all. 

He can be flexibly built a number of ways with helminth subsumes, as a team buffer or weapons platform, I hardly ever use tragedy because everything dies too quickly to Dante with everyone's buffs going at once. 

He's still of the better frames in the game just on that alone.

You said it yourself, you rarely use it, Tragedy is the real tragedy in Dante's kit...it feels so dysfunctional compared to every other verse, it should have been nerfed yes, but only it's base range.

Edited September 5 by Prof-Dante

[dwqrf]

il y a 11 minutes, Prof-Dante a dit :

What is overdramatic is the tragedy nerf and line of sight.

But jumping in the middle of a room in a static mission with 4 allies and their pets, and casting Tragedy, can nuke everything in it's intended AoE as most of the targets around you will be primed by a lot of DoTs + Paragrims status damage, regardless if you actually used Dark Verse in the right direction or not. It's just a better expedite suffering as it's around you and not in a cone, and affect more status.

It's not supposed to be Dante's main mean of damage (as you'd better play in public and buff everyone around you ; and if you play solo, it's niche to play when priming target with more than Dark Verse ; as Dante is both an excellent support and a great weapon plateforme).

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

"I underestimated that other players could be more skilled than me, so I don't understand how something could be nerfed."

[quxier]

33 minutes ago, Prof-Dante said:

8 hours ago, quxier said:

I don't have any videos testing his potential at that time (in group). Do you?

the only time I managed to nuke something with this ability is if they enemy had armor low enough to be killed by his 6,500 damage, same as any other nuke ability that does the same, there is no difference between nuking with Tragedy and nuking with Radial javelin, if both didn't have additional perks.

I guess it wasn't slash that bypass armor.

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

1 hour ago, Lord_Chibi said:

him nuking through walls was extremely op...

If you're playing in missions where 6,500 damage is considered "OP", you should probably focus on progressing the game and not worrying about what's OP and what's not. Cause I'll tell you, it's not.

It was 6500 damage AS SLASH. That's changes few things. So after that 6.5k damage you have at least 6 ticks x 0.35 = 13 650 damage bypassing armor. Corrupted heavy gunner at 100 levelhave 167k health (if I read it right). That's 12.2x casts. If they have changed calculation that's even less HP (update 36 increases HP of some enemies). Not OP, sure. But then give it 2x or 3x Strength that Dante can easily get with his exalted grimoire.

That alone were about Dante's Tragedy damage. That doesn't count other sources and procs like viral. I don't know if it was "extremely strong" but it was strong without even huge knowledge (me).

 

It's similar case with Yareli's Aquablades. With roar & maybe viral/heat (k.nukor) I could just roll into enemies and they died from proc. Of course it was before overguard.

38 minutes ago, Prof-Dante said:

7 hours ago, Kaiga said:

I don't think dante is just tragedy at all. 

He can be flexibly built a number of ways with helminth subsumes, as a team buffer or weapons platform, I hardly ever use tragedy because everything dies too quickly to Dante with everyone's buffs going at once. 

He's still of the better frames in the game just on that alone.

You said it yourself, you rarely use it, Tragedy is the real tragedy in Dante's kit...it feels so dysfunctional compared to every other verse, it should have been nerfed yes, but only it's base range.

I've been playing Jade more (her 2nd is super fun & easy to do) but Update 36 played some role into it. Grineer (and some other) have increased HP meaning that your slash need to delete more HP after bypasssing armor.

 

[Prof-Dante]

50 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

"I underestimated that other players could be more skilled than me, so I don't understand how something could be nerfed."

"I have nothing valuable to say so I undermine the Original poster's concern by making fun of it and his skill."

Seriously Madurai, do you have anything else to do on the Forums? literally everytime I see you comment, it's always, always one that's making fun of the OP, you add absolutely nothing to the argument, as long the OP is remotely or slightly against anything DE does.

At least add something after the terrible sarcastic comment lol.

41 minutes ago, quxier said:

It was 6500 damage AS SLASH

it didn't deal any status procs my friend, it's "AS SLASH" damage, not a status proc.

all your calculations went for nothing.

Edited September 5 by Prof-Dante

[quxier]

48 minutes ago, Prof-Dante said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

It was 6500 damage AS SLASH

it didn't deal any status procs my friend, it's "AS SLASH" damage, not a status proc.

all your calculations went for nothing.

My bad. I assumed it from previous experience in group without testing.

Still with 240% strength (precision intensify + 40%) it deals ~6x more damage. It's pretty helpful.

[KitMeHarder]

6 hours ago, quxier said:

It was 6500 damage AS SLASH. That's changes few things. So after that 6.5k damage you have at least 6 ticks x 0.35 = 13 650 damage bypassing armor.

5 hours ago, quxier said:

Still with 240% strength (precision intensify + 40%) it deals ~6x more damage.

You're conflating the different parts of Tragedy. Tragedy only does 6500 slash damage at base (and none of the oh so coveted slash procs). This is the only source that went through walls, and thus the status detonation part is also largely irrelevant.

Dark Verse (the biggest component of what you're conflating) already had LoS.

[quxier]

12 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

6 hours ago, quxier said:

It was 6500 damage AS SLASH. That's changes few things. So after that 6.5k damage you have at least 6 ticks x 0.35 = 13 650 damage bypassing armor.

5 hours ago, quxier said:

Still with 240% strength (precision intensify + 40%) it deals ~6x more damage.

You're conflating the different parts of Tragedy. Tragedy only does 6500 slash damage at base (and none of the oh so coveted slash procs). This is the only source that went through walls, and thus the status detonation part is also largely irrelevant.

Yeah, I had that talk with OP, my bad.

14 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Dark Verse (the biggest component of what you're conflating) already had LoS.

But was that added with 4th LOS changes?

But coming back to main topic:

8 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

8 hours ago, Lord_Chibi said:

him nuking through walls was extremely op...

If you're playing in missions where 6,500 damage is considered "OP", you should probably focus on progressing the game and not worrying about what's OP and what's not. Cause I'll tell you, it's not.

Base 6,5k isn't great as just damage without status.

However it was still powerful as it multiplied your slash/toxic/heat. Mine have (now) 6.9x. So if group of people doing some viral&slash (or toxic/heat, and heat was common element) then it had potential to do a lot of damage. In netracells:

Quote

Enemy Health and Shields increased by 100% and an additional 50% for each squad member, stacking to a maximum of 300%.

I could still do pretty big damage. What's more silly is that it wasn't some sort of "big SP build". I wasn't into SP too much at that time (considering SP had more armor for my average builds was not great).

[KitMeHarder]

4 hours ago, quxier said:

But was that added with 4th LOS changes?

No, it had it on day one.

4 hours ago, quxier said:

Base 6,5k isn't great as just damage without status.

However it was still powerful as it multiplied your slash/toxic/heat.

I'm not denying that, I only countered someone's claim that the 6500 damage was too "OP". As that was the only part that went through walls conditionless, and that's the nerf Dante got/we're talking about.

Most, if not all, notable status application Dante had access to either already had a relatively much smaller AoE, or you already had to see/have LoS on the enemy at some point. 

Edited September 6 by KitMeHarder

[Raarsi]

I sorta agree that they should've hit him more on max range instead of LoS, but I also don't mind him being an overguard generator.  Gives me an excuse to mess around with his Grimoire a bit more, plus it allows Equinox mains to feel slightly less pointless.

[quxier]

7 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

12 hours ago, quxier said:

Base 6,5k isn't great as just damage without status.

However it was still powerful as it multiplied your slash/toxic/heat.

I'm not denying that, I only countered someone's claim that the 6500 damage was too "OP". As that was the only part that went through walls conditionless, and that's the nerf Dante got/we're talking about.

Most, if not all, notable status application Dante had access to either already had a relatively much smaller AoE, or you already had to see/have LoS on the enemy at some point. 

Ok, make sense.

7 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

12 hours ago, quxier said:

But was that added with 4th LOS changes?

No, it had it on day one.

So I guess wiki were not good. Ok.

[vFlitz]

Generally I find Tragedy not to be worth the cast time/energy cost anymore, aside from a rare case when I want to eliminate an enemy that's within my view but outside the range of my beam weapons without making my way over to it (so pretty much only enemies that are trying to spawn a rogue necramech on the sanctum tileset). Otherwise you're better off just using weapons, because you'll be using them to clear the stragglers that Tragedy decides to randomly miss anyway.

Overguard regen and the birds are the real powerhouses in his kit so I don't actually miss Tragedy too much, but yeah it's a shame it got the LoS jank double down instead of simply reducing/removing the base damage.

[dwqrf]

Il y a 1 heure, vFlitz a dit :

Overguard regen and the birds are the real powerhouses in his kit so I don't actually miss Tragedy too much

WordWarden is so strong !

[vFlitz]

7 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

WordWarden is so strong !

Oh yeah I agree, it's just that it pales in comparison to its 'nearly immortality' and 'triple my proc quantity and damage' company

[dwqrf]

il y a 12 minutes, vFlitz a dit :

Oh yeah I agree, it's just that it pales in comparison to its 'nearly immortality' and 'triple my proc quantity and damage' company

I find it quite insane while playing with new players, and not giving them +%damage (that would multiply basically no damage to twice no damage), but rather a flat +added damage of your choice of element ! Especially since it will give you attacks Slash+X (Viral is a good pick), with really high damage, crit, status, and bounce effect.

Even if immortality and damage multiplication from status is great ; WordWarden allows you to play -any- unmodded weapons and still do huge damage by clicking on foes. I don't even need to look at my weapons picks in EDA and still be sure I'll be able to complete it with WordWarden.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2024-09-05 at 12:38 AM, Prof-Dante said:

I never understood why it has that long base range in the first place.

You see, Tragedy need dots to nuke, and dots need priming and priming needs your real-time literal line of sight, unless you use a 30 meter aoe weapon, good luck with that, or a random projectile like Cedo.

Whatever you do, you will never get the full 30 meter nuke, except the initial damage which deals no status procs.
pageflight doesn't attack every enemy within 30 meters.

it's like Lavos' fourth ability, it's effective range is much smaller than what's written because the probes expand and disperse, In Dante's case, your real life line of sight prevents you from Nuking all enemies within 30 meters.

you can go try 360-ing Dark verse, I bet it's fun...

So Instead of nerfing Dante's unnecessary big range, you added completely unnecessary layers of line of sight checks on top of each other...why not reduce the range to the appropriate amount?
I never nuke farther than 20 meters, and I rarely focus on nuking enemies behind me, it's always me hitting enemies with heat procs from Noctua, and then use tragedy to condense the procs.

it's a whole 30 meter of absolutely nothing, and it's the one verse I rarely ever use with Dante, because my Noctua does the entire Job for me.

 

 

in fact, this Tragedy syndrome is so annoying to me I haven't been playing this frame for a long time, he was supposed to be a perfect balance between Defense and offense, now he's more or less an Overguard generator.

I don't see why so many people seem to think the OG dante was reasonable. It wasn't. 

Rebecca said herself that if they didn't add LoS they'd have to nerf the range by alot.

And I don't think "base range still high enough that you can just slap a range mod or two and fix it" is enough.

[Colyeses]

On 2024-09-05 at 12:53 PM, Kaiga said:

I don't think dante is just tragedy at all. 

He kinda is, though. 

Sure, he's got more in his kit, but the other 4s are all set-it-and-forget-it abilities that don't factor into his gameplay loop. Dude might as well just have three passives and a single nuke that requires three button-presses. 

In general gameplay, Dante IS exclusively Tragedy-spam.