Limbo, let us shoot trough the rift

[MrInubis]

1 hour ago, VasjaTheOx said:

No, The team can shoot the enemies even from outside the rift.

THe enemies cant shoot cross planes, ergo it only affects them.

So as i said you just made everyone immortal without any downsides.

[sunderthefirmament]

On 2024-09-17 at 9:07 PM, Palkiry said:

As a formal Limbo enjoyer, playing Limbo with random squads is hard unless you do nothing. You ask 100 people what DE should do with limbo and its a three-way tie between nothing, banning him off public, and buffing him so people can play everything solo. I really don't see why the best idea for a rework people have is taking away the rift. What's the point of the rift if your squad can reap all the benefits without the complexity or even game challenge? At that point they should just make limbo be the rift, pause time for the enemies and give them status effect with one button. Limbo needs work as well as a LOT of quality of life but I don't see why he should be limited in the name of other frames. A lot of the problems people have with Limbo is that he affects the pace for the team and a bad Limbo doesn't how to set a good pace. Visual clarity is the one thing every Limbo player can give their soul to DE for. Make enemies in the rift glow or semi-fade away and give player a rift interface like the Cambion drift does when you approach the sun-moon pieces (I don't know their name). 

 

DO IT AND MY LIFE IS YOURS DE

Visual clarity would certainly help, and I'm not saying I wouldn't welcome it, but I don't think it would be enough.  Even arguably obtrusive VFX like those on Nekros' shadows can blur together in the chaos of combat.  And that's assuming the game even renders the VFX it's supposed to, which isn't always a guarantee.

 

I'm in the "throw out the whole rift in everything but name" camp when it comes to Limbo.  I know he has his diehard fans, but, with respect, they aren't the ones being griefed by a Limbo even existing in the same game as them.  I don't think we should cater to Limbo fans when reworking him, as he is an inherently disruptive frame that has an adverse effect on the rest of his team.  So the "rift" can be re-envisioned as something less disruptive and grief prone, even if it is bland compared to the clunky rift we currently have. 

 

But let's be honest.  Limbo isn't currently selling his theme of "interdimensional wizard" all that well anyway.  Nothing he does actually feels like switching dimensions.  Enemies and obstacles still block you, and many enemies resist or ignore the rift entirely.  It boils down to every now and then you're whacking away at an enemy that doesn't take damage for reasons that are not immediately clear to the player.  I don't think it would be a loss at all to toss out the rift that we currently have and give Limbo an entirely new kit.

 

I don't think DE will do this though, so I'll conclude by stating that at a bare minimum, the VFX improvements you're suggesting should be implemented.

[Sephylon086918]

3 hours ago, VasjaTheOx said:

No, The team can shoot the enemies even from outside the rift.

THe enemies cant shoot cross planes, ergo it only affects them.

Thats not how rhe rift status works, thats not how cata works. Cata just constantly applies the rifted status to everything in it plain and simple. What you're asking for is basically to turn the rifted status into 10 puncture procs with little to no down time or crit chance bonus.

Edited September 21 by Sephylon086918

[VasjaTheOx]

23 hours ago, MrInubis said:

So as i said you just made everyone immortal without any downsides.

are you forgetting about Eximus and Nullifiers?

Oh Steel Path it wont be easy, besides, we all ready have Dante who does that and it seems like it dose not bother you at all.

[MrInubis]

10 minutes ago, VasjaTheOx said:

are you forgetting about Eximus and Nullifiers?

Oh Steel Path it wont be easy, besides, we all ready have Dante who does that and it seems like it dose not bother you at all.

Team in a bubble > enemies not > team shoots enemies > enemies cannot hit team. Eximus and nulifiers are irrelevant in that scenerio. You can even go this route : enemies in bubble > team outside > team pops overguard from safety > limbo pops nulifiers from inside (miter incarnon exists) > enemies die and cant fight back. You just cant make such adjustment because that breaks the game. Eximus and Nulifiers are hardly any challenge for years.

Edited September 22 by MrInubis

[VasjaTheOx]

1 hour ago, MrInubis said:

Team in a bubble > enemies not > team shoots enemies > enemies cannot hit team. Eximus and nulifiers are irrelevant in that scenerio. You can even go this route : enemies in bubble > team outside > team pops overguard from safety > limbo pops nulifiers from inside (miter incarnon exists) > enemies die and cant fight back. You just cant make such adjustment because that breaks the game. Eximus and Nulifiers are hardly any challenge for years.

It's pointless to have a constructive talk with someone who decided to not listen to anything, and disagree with everything just because.

 

What you mentioned, goes for all the new and Reworked warframes, every single one of them has potential to become immortal or realy good at supporting the team.

Limbo on the other hand, whatever way you chose to build him, the team will hate him becouse they can not shoot the enemies at certain points.

Also Xakus ability that entangles the enemie is kinda annoying, but at least she targets one enemie.

 

So ill just ignore you in the future, since you clrearly have nothing constructive to add.

 

Best regards.

[MrInubis]

1 hour ago, VasjaTheOx said:

It's pointless to have a constructive talk with someone who decided to not listen to anything, and disagree with everything just because.

 

What you mentioned, goes for all the new and Reworked warframes, every single one of them has potential to become immortal or realy good at supporting the team.

Limbo on the other hand, whatever way you chose to build him, the team will hate him becouse they can not shoot the enemies at certain points.

Also Xakus ability that entangles the enemie is kinda annoying, but at least she targets one enemie.

 

So ill just ignore you in the future, since you clrearly have nothing constructive to add.

 

Best regards.

Its not even close to what you want. You want Revenants invlunerability on every single frame. Your idea is just bad. Deal with it. He needs a total rework, his kit is just toxic. He will always be either op or useless and annoying.

Edited September 22 by MrInubis

[Graavarg]

I don't agree. Limbo is quite fine as he is, though the interaction with some Eximus units is illogical.

I especially do not agree with respecting ignorance over skill, which is what will happen if one caters for "irritated squad members that don't know anything about the Rift and Limbo". Learn or shut up, I have no respect for ignorant whiners.

The Rift is much more than just Cataclysm. It is basically another state of being. And you CAN shoot through Cataclysm, just go out on the other side. Staying inside the Cataclysm bubble is not the thing with playing Limbo, or playing with a Limbo on the team. The Cataclysm bubble is just a tool and so is Stasis, it is the Rift that is "The Thing". 

[sunderthefirmament]

31 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

I don't agree. Limbo is quite fine as he is,

He is a CC frame in a game where KPS is almost all that matters in the majority of game modes and where CC has been nerfed.  He has access to unparalleled griefing ability, to the point where if he presses shift, 1, 2, 3, or 4, he runs the risk of inconveniencing whomever is unfortunate enough to match with him.  When he functions, he completely and utterly prevents enemies from acting, which leads to gameplay so stale that DE interrupted a special event during the height of COVID to specifically nerf him.  When he doesn't function, he does worse than nothing.  He slows his team down.  He's the least fine frame in the game.

 

33 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

I especially do not agree with respecting ignorance over skill, which is what will happen if one caters for "irritated squad members that don't know anything about the Rift and Limbo". Learn or shut up, I have no respect for ignorant whiners.

The real ignorance with Limbo is putting him on this false pedestal of expertise, acting like he has a high skill ceiling to truly make him shine.  His real skill ceiling is getting enough experience with him and other frames to realize that nothing he brings to the table is worth the price of admission, so you swear off of him until DE does something about this flaccid grief disaster of a frame.

 

34 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

The Rift is much more than just Cataclysm. It is basically another state of being.

Maybe in the lore, but in gameplay terms it's nonconsensual time out / invulnerability and energy regeneration with twice as many steps as a Mesmer Shield Revenant with Zenurik.

 

38 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

Staying inside the Cataclysm bubble is not the thing with playing Limbo, or playing with a Limbo on the team.

Cataclysm is probably his most frustrating ability to deal with, and that's saying something for a frame that also has Rift Surge.  I've complained about this at length, but it bears repeating.  The shrinking nature of Cataclysm means that, when combined with stasis (ie, always), enemies on the edge will be in the rift one moment and out of it the next.  Shots from within or without the rift aren't guaranteed to hit with enemies constantly flickering between rifted/unrifted status.  This matters more for slower, single shot weapons as opposed to rapid fire ones, but it's annoying no matter what you're using.  _{Except exalteds, I guess.}

[Revenant0713]

I main limbo with a bunch of different builds, and personally I like the plane management. I don't really want to make him less mechanically intensive. See if you could shoot through the rift, you would never have to leave it.

In my opinion, just make it so rift-surged enemies can be damaged regardless of which plane they or their attackers are in, so your allies can hit them even if they are outside the rift. That makes him far less frustrating for allies to play with, he gets to keep his mechanics, and everyone is happy.

Edited September 23 by Revenant0713

[Revenant0713]

 

20 hours ago, Graavarg said:

I don't agree. Limbo is quite fine as he is, though the interaction with some Eximus units is illogical.

I especially do not agree with respecting ignorance over skill, which is what will happen if one caters for "irritated squad members that don't know anything about the Rift and Limbo". Learn or shut up, I have no respect for ignorant whiners.

The Rift is much more than just Cataclysm. It is basically another state of being. And you CAN shoot through Cataclysm, just go out on the other side. Staying inside the Cataclysm bubble is not the thing with playing Limbo, or playing with a Limbo on the team. The Cataclysm bubble is just a tool and so is Stasis, it is the Rift that is "The Thing". 

The issue here is that Warframe is a co-op game. Limbo, uniquely, has the ability to negatively influence the cooperative experience of his allies just because the player behind the keyboard decides to. Very few other frames can hinder allies at a whim, with the only other one that comes close being troll portals with Nova, and those are so much easier for players to avoid.

No other frame allows that level of control. You may not do it. I may not do it. But it is within our power to do so, and there are those who do, and they are the reason why people hate Limbo. They're the ones who got Za Warudo nerfed, and to dismiss the frustrations of players because we have that level of control over their experience is bad faith. Many will argue the option to troll should not exist and I agree.

19 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

He is a CC frame in a game where KPS is almost all that matters in the majority of game modes and where CC has been nerfed.  He has access to unparalleled griefing ability, to the point where if he presses shift, 1, 2, 3, or 4, he runs the risk of inconveniencing whomever is unfortunate enough to match with him.  When he functions, he completely and utterly prevents enemies from acting, which leads to gameplay so stale that DE interrupted a special event during the height of COVID to specifically nerf him.  When he doesn't function, he does worse than nothing.  He slows his team down.  He's the least fine frame in the game.

 

The real ignorance with Limbo is putting him on this false pedestal of expertise, acting like he has a high skill ceiling to truly make him shine.  His real skill ceiling is getting enough experience with him and other frames to realize that nothing he brings to the table is worth the price of admission, so you swear off of him until DE does something about this flaccid grief disaster of a frame.

 

Maybe in the lore, but in gameplay terms it's nonconsensual time out / invulnerability and energy regeneration with twice as many steps as a Mesmer Shield Revenant with Zenurik.

 

Cataclysm is probably his most frustrating ability to deal with, and that's saying something for a frame that also has Rift Surge.  I've complained about this at length, but it bears repeating.  The shrinking nature of Cataclysm means that, when combined with stasis (ie, always), enemies on the edge will be in the rift one moment and out of it the next.  Shots from within or without the rift aren't guaranteed to hit with enemies constantly flickering between rifted/unrifted status.  This matters more for slower, single shot weapons as opposed to rapid fire ones, but it's annoying no matter what you're using.  _{Except exalteds, I guess.}

Now regarding KPS.... honestly, when I got decent enough with Limbo, I outdamage most Wukongs in Netracell runs. Limbo does have a DPS build, but it's a weapon-dependent one, much like Gauss. He doesn't really do just CC. That said, CC does start to matter the later into an endless mission you go. My Silence build on him is pretty good at locking down an entire tile. Eximus units still have their projectiles stopped, and their abilities are disabled.

I do agree with Cataclysm though. I imagine it shrinks because DE thought it'd synergize with forcing enemies to leave the rift with rift surge for a CC lock. But in reality it's a convoluted way to do a CC chain that Banshee can do by ulting and standing still.

I do think QoL for teammates could be neat if Rift Surge allows for damaging enemies across planes. But I don't have any ideas to solve Cataclysm without removing the shrinking gimmick.

[dwqrf]

il y a 3 minutes, Revenant0713 a dit :

Very few other frames can hinder allies at a whim, with the only other one that comes close being troll portals with Nova, and those are so much easier for players to avoid.

No other frame allows that level of control.

Don't forget people can lock you out of extraction, throw you in a pit of enemies, or out of bound, with Valkyr Ripline or Loki Switch Teleport ; which you can't really avoid, at all.

[Revenant0713]

12 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Don't forget people can lock you out of extraction, throw you in a pit of enemies, or out of bound, with Valkyr Ripline or Loki Switch Teleport ; which you can't really avoid, at all.

True, but that is largely single target and mostly good fun.

Limbo can flat out fail a mission for you and make the team blame you if they didn't see what happened, such as with spy. He can also protect the Demolyst. Or use an uber duration ult on mob def before the datamass is plugged in. He can stop interaction with life support. He can also protect most assassination targets indefinitely if he knows what he's doing. He can delay orb mother hunts until you either quit or fail too.

These are just off the top of my head.

Edited September 23 by Revenant0713

[PR1D3]

On 2024-09-17 at 5:28 AM, VasjaTheOx said:

why rework Equinox, my N.1 main, shes perfect as she is.

 

her passive like powers are realy unique to her, and if you want to make her more like the other warframes, just subsume another warframes ability on her 2nd or 4th.

 

no need to make her just like Saryn 2.0.

because if you dont like her, they might as well remove Voruna.

 

Equinox is realy good on High lvl SP, its just a shame that Random Equinox players cant comprehend that.

Equinox is far from perfect. There are several QoL changes she could benefit her greatly. Heck, when they made the orb consumption changes for stuff like health conversion & equilibrium they neglected to do it to equinox’s passive. Her kit is fine but we could use some tweaks to numbers, rage’s enemy attack steroid, & channels maintaining through form shift.

[PR1D3]

On 2024-09-21 at 7:39 AM, sunderthefirmament said:

Visual clarity would certainly help, and I'm not saying I wouldn't welcome it, but I don't think it would be enough.  Even arguably obtrusive VFX like those on Nekros' shadows can blur together in the chaos of combat.  And that's assuming the game even renders the VFX it's supposed to, which isn't always a guarantee.

 

I'm in the "throw out the whole rift in everything but name" camp when it comes to Limbo.  I know he has his diehard fans, but, with respect, they aren't the ones being griefed by a Limbo even existing in the same game as them.  I don't think we should cater to Limbo fans when reworking him, as he is an inherently disruptive frame that has an adverse effect on the rest of his team.  So the "rift" can be re-envisioned as something less disruptive and grief prone, even if it is bland compared to the clunky rift we currently have. 

 

But let's be honest.  Limbo isn't currently selling his theme of "interdimensional wizard" all that well anyway.  Nothing he does actually feels like switching dimensions.  Enemies and obstacles still block you, and many enemies resist or ignore the rift entirely.  It boils down to every now and then you're whacking away at an enemy that doesn't take damage for reasons that are not immediately clear to the player.  I don't think it would be a loss at all to toss out the rift that we currently have and give Limbo an entirely new kit.

 

I don't think DE will do this though, so I'll conclude by stating that at a bare minimum, the VFX improvements you're suggesting should be implemented.

On visual clarity I remember some poster suggested that Rifted enemies could also have the Void Unlight Effect/Duviri Colorless Effect.

[(PSN)Unstar]

You know, my first read of this thread title, I thought, "Limbo shooting enemies through the Rift?  Yeah right, that would be way too powerful."

But the more I think about it, the more I think..."But would it?"

Because even if Limbo was 100% safe in the Rift, would being able to shoot a gun at an enemy while immune to damage be "too powerful" in Warframe?  We've already got frames that can tank everything without blinking, not to mention Revenant.  Heck, some frames get sad when they're not taking a billion hits.

And of course, Limbo can already be hurt by plenty of attacks in the Rift, so even at present he's not entirely safe there.  Which means that if Limbo could shoot his gun through the Rift, he would still be more vulnerable than plenty of frames.

Obviously the ideal solution would be to give Limbo a thorough rework, to find a new way to use his theme in a way that somehow keeps up with the game Warframe has become in 2024.  But that's hard.  That's a lot of development work, work that occupies DE's limited bandwidth and means something else isn't being worked on.  Will it happen?  If it did would the result be satisfying?  It's a cost, and that cost comes with risk.

So maybe just letting Limbo shoot through the Rift would be a good thing to try.  Heck, it can't be worse for other players than the way Limbo is currently incentivized to make enemies unshootable to other players just so he can shoot them in relative safety.

Edited Tuesday at 12:09 AM by (PSN)Unstar
typo

[SaidTheRogue]

one thing some of you are forgetting.. /sigh

the issue of shooting enemies across the rift isnt nearly as bad as some people are making it out to be, since that can already be done by various frames. various frame abilities, exalted weapons, this that and the other, can cross the rift.

this is nothing new. ever seen a limbo+mesa duo really dialed in? its the game on ez mode for sure. the issue is, it doesnt happen nearly enough and usually, when there is a squad with:

one limbo and; other frames... the overall performance of the group isnt as great as it could be. well duh, thatll tend to color everyones view of limbo as a frame but ohhhh surprise, when there happens to be a group makeup that gets along just fine with cataclysm, everything goes smooth.

so its not limbo as a frame that needs to get changed, not his kit overall, just the finer points of cataclysm. and hey, show me a game with no glitches, bugs or oversights and ill go play it, and so would you. limbo bubble has a few loose ends, no kidding, every game ever made in history does.

Edited Tuesday at 05:32 AM by SaidTheRogue