a banshee rework on the books?

[_Anise_]

Nova got a rework and she isn't even bad, Id argue banshee is in a worse place than trinity who is also getting a rework

her ULTIMATE is kinda bad specially with all the overguard units runnning around, it is no longer fit for even soft CC nevermind damage dealing, it also roots her to the spot in a game with Jade light punishes you for not moving, making Jade eximus a literally anti banshee unit, its also better with the augment but also stupidly overcosted for what it does.

First ability is bad/questionable without the argument, some weapons do better CC and with the augment there are better armorstrips too!

Sonar is great! (and also needs an augment and range)

Silence is GREAT and also a 100% just in the helminth as a 1:1 copy, other frames utilize this better than banshee, it also suffers from the old issue that Nova slowva/speedva did in that it needs positive or negative range to make it work (Nova is given push hold for speed slow now)

Silence is anti synergistic with her KIT if you build for low range execute sonar suffers (one of her 2 builds which again needs an agument)

While I don't like the idea of making helminth worse, most frames that are not banshee can do silence better than banshee, it just seems like this should be considered iconic to her kit the sound based playstyle and probably shouldn't be in helminth imo, they said iconic abilities and ultimates would never be in? maybe her first ability should be her helminth looking at mag or at the last it should be limited heminth version in some way to further highlight its use on banshee as one of her only 2 good abilities/builds.

tldr:most her augments are mandatory to make her abilities usable, 2 of her 4 abilities just aren't good, can she get some much needed love?

 

[Rathalio]

I'd love to see Banshee get some love too. I didn't expect Nova to get a rework and it was a pleasant surprise.

Overall I agree with all your points on Banshee. Although I'd say her 4th ability is tricky for DE to tinker. It used to be an AFK farm engine by nature and they definitely don't want that back. And yeah Banshee is definitely in that frame category where you want to use 2 to 3 augments at least to really make her feel powerful, which is a bit sad.

Also Silence imo is one of the best abilities in the game and that's crazy that it is the one you can pick with the helminth system.

PS: I would disagree though to say that Trinity works better than Banshee, they are both tricky. But Trinity feels horrible to play because of the lack of duration on her abilities (which are already not super efficient) with an already challenging gameplay in higher level content.

[Tiltskillet]

Totally agree on her ult.  The immobility is the worst part, so on the rare occasions I use it, it's basically never without the augment.   I can imagine some sort of tune up where that's made the base function and it gets  some number changes and tweaks.  But really I'd prefer it be drastically overhauled.

Sonic Boom needs an additional effect, synergy, or hold-cast.  The augment should be a complete defense strip, not just armor, and maybe get some sort of minor additional effect.

Sonar is fine, even without the augment.  In an ideal Tiltskillet world, there are changes I'd make, but they all seem like a lot of work for an ability that's quite good already.

I don't think the problems with Silence on Banshee are as stark as you do, but it and its augment could use some changes.  I have like 10 different ideas that I like on different days.  :P  Whatever improvements it gets, I think it should have reduced function on other frames, because it's plenty powerful already.

 

[sunderthefirmament]

2 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Sonar is fine, even without the augment.  In an ideal Tiltskillet world, there are changes I'd make, but they all seem like a lot of work for an ability that's quite good already.

I've said it before, and I'm certainly not the first or only one to say it, but Sonar's weak spots should count as headshots for all headshot related effects.  If the weakspots need to be rebalanced to ignore range and remove overlap, then I think that would be worthwhile.  But I will defer to people with more Banshee experience than me when it comes to this particular topic.

 

I agree that it's already quite good.  And I would certainly prioritize other abilities first, starting with her ult.

[_Anise_]

12 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Sonic Boom needs an additional effect, synergy, or hold-cast

maybe hold cast instead of pushing down enemies could push banshee forwards sort of like vial rush, this would serve as a gap closer and synergize with silence/execute builds, assuming silence could get a push/hold for long / short range silence, could be great!

(kind brings up another point that he kit has almost no synergies!)

12 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Sonar is fine, even without the augment

yeah I guess you're right, this one is usable without the augment just makes you spam cast more which can be alleviated with cast speed gems and a decent energy economy.

Edited yesterday at 04:09 PM by _Anise_

[Tiltskillet]

1 minute ago, _Anise_ said:

yeah I guess you're right, this one is usable without the augment just makes you spam cast more which can be alleviated with cast speed gems and a decent energy economy.

Resonance has a pretty long cooldown, so spam casting is really the way to get the most from the ability, if needed.  I use the augment a lot, but it's basically just casual qol.

I suppose shortening the CD would be reasonable.

 

14 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Sonar's weak spots should count as headshots for all headshot related effects.

Yeah,  I'd love this.  Probably with the caveat that it should only apply to direct damage, not radial.

[AsffluffyZ]

Was sad that the supposed nyx and trinity reworks weren't even mentioned.

[Tiltskillet]

13 minutes ago, AsffluffyZ said:

Was sad that the supposed nyx and trinity reworks weren't even mentioned.

IIRC those were always supposed to come out later.  It's hard for me to be disappointed, since there's quite a lot coming next week.  But I'm not a Nyx or Trinity player.

[AsffluffyZ]

13 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

IIRC those were always supposed to come out later.  It's hard for me to be disappointed, since there's quite a lot coming next week.  But I'm not a Nyx or Trinity player.

I finished a nyx build that has over 100% parkour for when in assimilate and it's really nice to be a walking juggernaut.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

With Loki having gotten a bit of a brush up recently, Banshee is officially the oldest frame that hadn't been touched in any significant way when it comes to qol and ability updates. The biggest factor that makes her playing feel so tedious for me is the animation lock for every single ability. It makes sense for Quake, of course, but it's really noticeable with every other ability. My guess is that sonar has pretty much kept her out of the devs' crosshairs because despite rugged experience playing her, she still is very powerful both solo and in a group because of it. Every other ability though, definitely needs some changes, whether small or big ones, to feel like they're worth using repeatedly. Yes, Silence as well.

Getting rid of her quake is the only thing I'm worried about, because it's one of the few abilities in the game that significantly alters the flow of gameplay, and I would hate for that to be replaced by yet another "cast while moving around like a madman" type skill we have plenty of. Especially since she's squishy, being stuck in place really opens up opportunities for some high risk/high reward gameplay, which you can achieve without having to make her mobile. 

The changes I would like to see haven't really evolved in the past five years or more. She always had the same issues IMO, and the solutions to them I don't find very difficult to come up with:

Sonic Boom: Does pitiful damage
Sonar & Silence: Passable, but not very engaging on their own.
Sound Quake: High risk, low reward. 
Ability synergies: Non existent

What I'd like to see is a rework based around ability synergy as well as massively buffing her ultimate. One of the forms this rework could take on could be as follows.

'Uproot' Sonic Boom, Sonar and Silence cast animations
Sonic Boom: Significantly increase base damage, forced blast proc, guaranteed hit on body part affected by sonar spot.
Silence: Affect enemy sense of balance, making them take longer to get up and recover from and staggers based on power strength(eg. 200% STR = 50% recovery anim speed)
Sound Quake: Keep rooted, but add a channeled(hold fire) mode sending out additional conal damage pulses wherever you look, doubling damage, guaranteeing blast procs and sonar hits.

I don't mind her current passive, but many people find it lackluster. So in addition to silencing all weapons, silenced weapon and ability damage could be increased, for allies in range as well, providing another benefit to Silence. 

If there was only one issue I had to choose that affected my enjoyment of playing her the most it would be her stiff animation casting. Hell, I would love for her first to get an animation that looks different from her second, like she has in one of the trailers. But that'd just be icing.

 

[Fred_Avant_2019]

il y a une heure, Tiltskillet a dit :

IIRC those were always supposed to come out later.  It's hard for me to be disappointed, since there's quite a lot coming next week.  But I'm not a Nyx or Trinity player.

We're to expect them by 1999, so that's already cool.

Nova rework caught me off guard though. Certified Handsome Very Based God Pablo moment.

 

As for Banshee, I think the base concept works, but as said earlier, we kinda need a couple things tweaked, namely Sonic Boom and Soundquake.

[sunderthefirmament]

8 hours ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

The biggest factor that makes her playing feel so tedious for me is the animation lock for every single ability.

Trinity has the same problem (among her other problems).  I'd keep an eye on what they do with Trinity, as it might be a bellwether for eventual changes to Banshee.

[Ventura_Highway]

I wouldn't even call Sonar good. I get it, I like big numbers too. But fundamentally, if you do 10,000 damage and it kills, or do 1,000,000,000,000000.69 damage and it kills the target, the same objective has been achieved. The overkill is of no value whatsoever.

That said, despite feeling that Banshee's kit is, fun but undeniably outdated and at odds with the speed of Warframe today, I'm not surprised she's not been reworked. I mean, Limbo is like, a year and a half younger and he's not been fixed up either. I think the question that needs to be asked here is, not so much "does the Warframe warrants a rework", but "is a rework feasible?".  Personally I think it'd be find to make a rework for Banshee that'd be generally effective relative to her peers in non-Endurance Steel Path while retaining the spirit of her kit.

Edited 19 hours ago by Ventura_Highway

[aminisi]

Modernizing Banshee is very difficult.

In a trading card game, it’s obvious that a card with the effect "any attack that hits kills the enemy" would be too strong. The high damage that’s balanced by costs and restrictions becomes meaningless, and low-damage cards with ease of use gain value. Moreover, even special effects designed with the premise that kills are difficult become easily obtainable. Game developers would want to immediately ban such dangerous and problematic cards. However, Banshee is allowed in Warframe. I believe this is because of love. Allowing Sonar to remain as strong as it is can be seen as an expression of love for both Banshee and the players who use her.

As someone who uses Banshee for nearly two hours every day, my greatest wish is to not increase the possibility of a nerf to Sonar. In the past, I feared that a reckless rework might claim to strengthen Sonar but actually lead to a significant nerf. But with the current DE, I think we’re probably safe. The only concern left is that making her easier to use and stronger might increase her user base too much, leading to a nerf.

For Wukong’s nerf, the following points were raised:
(1) To reduce AFK strategies,
(2) If the playstyle negatively hinders or disrupts the gameplay of others,
(3) To minimize a dominant playstyle that makes players feel they must use it.
Banshee’s Sonar has the potential to fall under (2). While it has a positive effect, encountering a Banshee occasionally in random matches might be enjoyable. However, if you start matching with Banshee too frequently, it could become a negative experience. Players can't evaluate their own weapon's firepower, companions steal kills, and AoE abilities annihilate enemies.

There’s also the possibility it could violate (1). Even now, just spamming Sonar allows sentinel clones to run around and take down even Steel Path enemies. Sound Quake was also nerfed because it conflicted with (1). Since Sonar can boost ability damage, it’s already possible to make Resonance Quake lethal. Increasing damage would be dangerous.

Six months ago, when discussing Banshee’s rework, we had to start by explaining to people who claimed Sonar was weak just how strong it actually is. However, in this thread, there seems to be a shared understanding that Sonar is strong. That’s wonderful. Sonar spam Banshee is gradually gaining recognition, and it seems that Banshee’s evaluation is slowly improving. It's also an option not to forcefully interfere with the wonderful scenario where an old, low-usage frame turns out to be strong and naturally gains recognition over time.

Edited 19 hours ago by aminisi

[sunderthefirmament]

6 hours ago, aminisi said:

However, Banshee is allowed in Warframe. I believe this is because of love. Allowing Sonar to remain as strong as it is can be seen as an expression of love for both Banshee and the players who use her.

I like your interpretation of why Sonar is the way that it is, but I think another aspect of it is that Sonar just flat out doesn't work on a lot of the enemies that are tanky enough to justify its use.  For the vast majority of content in this game, another frame could immediately clear out the enemies that Banshee does in the time it takes her to debuff them.  To extend your TCG analogy, it's like if the instant kill effect you're describing would only work on Magic cards with 3 or fewer HP (or whatever they call that stat).

 

Sonar is absolutely fantastic for helping players bridge a damage gap as they get their Steel Path legs under them, or snuff out liches quickly.  And I imagine it's useful in endurance though I don't play that content so I'll defer to experts on that.  But our current tankiest enemies, where you'd actually want to take the time to overlap some weakspots, can ignore it completely.  I'm talking about the Murmur boss, eidolons, and certain other bosses like archons.

 

DE might be allowing Sonar to remain as it is because it can't even speed up TTK in the areas where DE really wants to slow us down.

[kadlis12]

I recently went through my unused warframes to give them another try. Banshee was one of those, so here is an opinion of an uninvested Banshee newb.

She is a squishy frame. You need to keep your survivability in mind a lot. As a result, you have to balance the MOD slots with restraint.

Sonic Boom is pointless, so it's a skip. I have not used it since I tried it once. It needs either an armour strip on default,... or disarm. Or something. Something that does not duplicate what Silence already did. As it stands, there is never a reason to use it. (Having an armour strip on an augment might sound good, but I did not have a free space for that augment, so... no, thanks.)

Sonar is... hands down the strongest damage boost I have ever encountered. With the augment, it is even maintained pretty much passively. edit: But if it does not work on big bosses? That is the place you really want the damage boosts! If this frame was to become popular, this ability would require a massive rebalance. I like the idea of adding headshot status and removing overlaps.

Silence - I am a long-time fan of this ability in subsumes. The main complaint would be the forced stop on the cast - and the inability to recast.

Sound Quake - I am never bothering with channelling abilities which root you. No opinion - as I did not even give it a try in an actual mission.

Passive - silencing your weapons - I have no idea why you would want that. Nobody is taking Banshee to spy missions. In most other cases, you would want to have Silence active, so there is no point in silencing weapons.

 

My conclusion:

I have no idea where to take her. To which mission types. Definitely not Spy. Defence is a wrong type too. Not even Gloom Banshee is comfortable in Survivals - and the squishiness does sound like a dealbreaker even for assassinations. It is a way too slow frame for Capture and Exterminate.

The frame is not an independent fighter, but a support actually. A support char which is able to cripple the Eximus units and multiply the damage. ...a support char in dire need of another support char that would keep her alive.

Edited 3 hours ago by kadlis12

[aminisi]

Thank you for your reply.

First, as you mentioned, Banshee is ineffective in most boss fights, excluding Liches and Sisters. However, many of those boss fights are deliberately designed so that many abilities are ineffective, and this is not a problem unique to Banshee.

2 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

another frame could immediately clear out the enemies that Banshee does in the time it takes her to debuff them.

This can be divided into two separate points.

The first is, "Can Sonar be applied before the allies kill the enemies?"
With Stretch and Augur Reach equipped, Sonar’s range becomes 60 meters. A Sonar spam Banshee can spam Sonar 1-3 times per second. As long as your allies are not too far away, you can usually paint the entire body of the enemies before they even make contact.

The second point is, "Since enemies can be killed without debuffs, overkill is meaningless."
Overkill has value in that it’s fun because it produces a lot of damage. Additionally, much like how many players appreciate Roar, even a small change in how things feel contributes to comfort and enjoyment. While the above two points relate to supporting allies, the important part is that Banshee herself can benefit even more. First, she can choose weapons based not on damage but on handling or attack range. Incarnon Torid requires aiming and reloading, but Sporelacer secondary does not. More than that, even the secondary fire of Cedo, which normally can't kill, becomes lethal. It’s extremely fun.

Additionally, you can even utilize special effects that were originally designed with the assumption that kills would be difficult to achieve. With Verglas Prime, your sentinel clones can easily kill enemies, producing a lot of energy orbs via Duplex Bond. Even the 600-damage explosions from Combustion Beam, which are usually weak, become lethal. Combustion Beam works like Nova’s Molecular Prime, causing a chain reaction that often wipes out Infested hordes. The Contagious Bond chain reaction from the sentinel is also powerful, and gas status effects are highly effective at killing enemies. Lately, I’ve been researching the kill effects of Incarnon Dual Ichor, and it’s also a lot of fun to chain those kills together.

If a weapon existed that "generates an 18-meter explosion upon killing an enemy, and enemies killed by the explosion also trigger a chain explosion, with a 50% chance to drop an energy orb from the defeated enemies," it would be considered too strong. (In reality, you’d also need to consider damage falloff based on distance.) Imagine being able to equip that weapon on four crew and have them fight constantly. Banshee can achieve that simply by spamming Sonar. There's no issue with durability either. The results of these synergies are why I believe Banshee is already too strong as it stands. It's likely that with the next update, especially regarding companions, new synergies will emerge, making them even stronger

As for how to manage movement and attacks while spamming Sonar, and how to solve durability issues, it would take too long to explain here, so I’d be happy if you could check out my explanation video.

 

[_Anise_]

13 hours ago, Ventura_Highway said:

I wouldn't even call Sonar good. I get it, I like big numbers too. But fundamentally, if you do 10,000 damage and it kills, or do 1,000,000,000,000000.69 damage and it kills the target, the same objective has been achieved. The overkill is of no value whatsoever.

 

its the strongest damage buff in the game but I am also completely in agreement with you, damage cap is possible without sonar, also people will usually bring the tools capable for the job at hand so with or without sonar they are going to do just fine!

14 hours ago, Ventura_Highway said:

not so much "does the Warframe warrants a rework", but "is a rework feasible?"

I almost said this in my original post but thought it might come off disrespectful, we basically need to wait for a deluxe skin for a rework to become viable because no one will buy the new banshee skin otherwise...

13 hours ago, aminisi said:

we had to start by explaining to people who claimed Sonar was weak just how strong it actually is

sonar is great but it can be a mixed bag, roar that will booster the damage against almost e.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g while sonar can be hit and miss, some special enemies it won't apply to and then really rare cases like liches (if it didn't change?) its was only damage buff that meaningfully bypassed the damage attenuation system which I am sure was an accident but was left because it gave her an interesting niche.

tldr It's one of her best abilities, it's basically what she does! and if she were reworked its the only one I wouldn't touch too much, sad that universal radar devalued it a little

 

 

[CosoMalvadoNG]

En 28/9/2024 a las 11:43, Rathalio dijo:

I'd love to see Banshee get some love too. I didn't expect Nova to get a rework and it was a pleasant surprise.

Overall I agree with all your points on Banshee. Although I'd say her 4th ability is tricky for DE to tinker. It used to be an AFK farm engine by nature and they definitely don't want that back. And yeah Banshee is definitely in that frame category where you want to use 2 to 3 augments at least to really make her feel powerful, which is a bit sad.

Also Silence imo is one of the best abilities in the game and that's crazy that it is the one you can pick with the helminth system.

PS: I would disagree though to say that Trinity works better than Banshee, they are both tricky. But Trinity feels horrible to play because of the lack of duration on her abilities (which are already not super efficient) with an already challenging gameplay in higher level content.

But you know some random insignificant number of mains are gonna cry and gonna said banshee it's good right now! How DE dare to change her!  How dare you said this!

I can see this happening hahahahahah every time a rework happen it's more and more funny.

 

Even when you spend your time explaining them, they always bring out what they like, even if what they like is at most average, mediocre or literally broken. I can't wait to see Saryn's rework/nerf, the world is going to be in tears when it happens.

Edited 38 minutes ago by CosoMalvadoNG