Limbo Rework

[Ikusi_Prime]

I feel like Limbo deserves a rework. His last set of changes addressed some of the team disruption that Limbo is capable of, but he's still one of the least popular and most disliked frames to see. He is a support/CC frame that is forced to play solo, and that sucks. 

With more and more content in the game being gated behind boss fights, Eximus units, and other Rift-immune enemies, Limbo's usefulness is outdated. The primary thing he does just doesn't work on the most important targets. Moving power budget away from his "perfect stun" and more towards manipulating zones and keeping enemies at bay would keep his fun and unique aspects intact without trivializing all content in the game. 

Here's my ideas:

Limbo 

Base shields: 75 -> 100 (Limbo Prime: 100 -> 125)

Base energy: 150 -> 200 (Limbo Prime: 175 -> 200)

The Rift Plane

* Transition damage: 300 Impact damage -> 20% of the target’s current HP as True damage the first time they enter The Rift. The minimum amount of damage is equal to 1% of the target’s maximum HP, and transition damage is capped at 2000 damage. After the first time they enter The Rift, it instead deals the minimum damage. (Lighter units will hit the cap at level 100ish, while heavy units will hit the cap at level 50ish.)

* Enemies inside the Rift Plane and above 10% of their maximum health take 1% of their current HP as True damage every 0.5 seconds. 

* Bosses (e.g., assassination contracts, Liches) that would be put into the Rift Plane are instead put "halfway" into the Rift Plane. Damage from the Rift Plane is halved against them, and players in both planes can affect them and be affected by them.

* Enemies appear translucent to players when they don’t share a plane of existence. Players have a 50% reduced noise level to enemies who don’t share a plane with them. 

* Enemies in the Rift Plane appear on Limbo’s minimap.

* Limbo's special roll no longer creates a portal, and no longer interrupts reloads, cast times, or the use of weapons. 

Banish (1)

* New functionality: Limbo snaps his fingers, unleashing a 10m-wide ripple in space that travels for 20/25/30/35m over 0.75 seconds, stopping when it hits terrain or if Limbo recasts. When it stops, the ripple detonates in a 5/6/7/10m radius, leaving behind a 2m spherical dimensional portal. All enemies in the material plane hit by the ripple, the detonation, or that touch the portal are forced into the Rift Plane for 10 seconds (allies are unaffected). Hold-cast to detonate a portal at your current location. 

* If cast while in the Rift Plane, the ripple and detonation force enemies from the Rift Plane into the material plane instead. 

* The dimensional portal lasts for 10 seconds. Allies in the material plane who stand in the portal can roll to enter the Rift Plane for 10 seconds, regardless of the plane Limbo was in when cast. (They can roll again at any time to leave the Rift Plane). Limbo and allies standing in the portal are considered to be in both planes, gaining the effects of the Rift and are able to affect enemies in both planes. 

(Ripple range, ripple width, and portal size are affected by ability range. Detonation radius affected by ability strength. Banish duration and portal duration affected by ability duration.) 

Rift Haven (augment)

* New functionality: Allies who stand inside a dimensional portal are healed for 10/15/20/25% of their maximum health per second (affected by ability strength). 

Additionally, the Rift Plane grants +2 health regen to Limbo and his allies. 

 

Stasis (2)

* New functionality: While active, enemies in the Rift Plane have their movement speed, fire rate, and projectile speed reduced by 60/70/80/90%, and their damage is reduced by 50%.

* Enemies who are below 30% of their maximum health and affected by Stasis are open to finishers. 

* Bosses and Eximus units build up a tolerance to Stasis. The penalties it imposes are reduced by 100% over the course of 10 seconds. Their tolerance decays while outside of the Rift Plane.

* Now a channeled ability, costs 3 energy per second (was 8/10/12/15 seconds) (this is a slight buff in overall duration, keeps you from having to recast it over and over again, and lets Limbo actually interact with his unique mechanic of gaining energy during a channel from The Rift)

Rift Surge (3)

* Instead of performing a radial Banish, charged enemies create a dimensional portal at their location when they leave the Rift Plane, detonating as per Banish.

* If a charged enemy dies, they pass their charge to the nearest enemy in the material plane OR the nearest dimensional portal. (Enemies in range of a dimensional portal are in the Rift, and so can't gain a charge this way.

* When a dimensional portal becomes charged, it re-detonates, pulling enemies from the material plane into the Rift Plane and refreshing the portal's duration.

Cataclysm (4)

* Duration reduced: 15/20/25/30 seconds -> 10/13/16/20 seconds.

* Nullifier bubbles no longer destroy the Cataclysm. Instead, the Nullifier bubble and all units inside it are always in the material plane, and the nullifier bubble removed dimensional portals

* Consoles and other interact-ables inside the Cataclysm can now be interacted with. 

* When the Cataclysm nexus comes in contact with a dimensional portal, the portal is consumed, increasing the radius of the nexus by 25% of the modded Cataclysm radius and adding seconds to the duration equal to a 25% of the modded Cataclysm duration. (This allows Limbo to sustain a Cataclysm using Banish and/or Rift Surge)

The goals here are massive QoL buffs for both Limbo and his team, making The Rift opt-in rather than opt-out and ensuring Limbo's abilities are intuitive to interact with do their thing against all enemy types across multiple game modes.

By making enemies slowed to a crawl by Stasis rather than stunned, similar to Sevagoth's Gloom, they don't stutter at the edge of a Cataclysm and don't get stunned in some far corner of the map. This still sells the time manipulation fantasy, arguably better as you sidestep enemy bullets, but doesn't completely remove their threat and makes the maximum projectile count actually matter. 

Making enemies translucent when you can't interact with them makes the battlefield changes Limbo creates very clear, and being able to interact with things inside Limbo's Cataclysm means he can't shut down certain game modes. 

[MaxedCarp]

Have you watched this video yet?

This is a guide that contains everything about Limbo. His kit, his abilities, synergies, subsumes, bugs and glitches, issues, updates and changes and suggests decent ideas for a rework / changes for his kit and / or his synergies or augments in a way that wouldn't affect his current playstyle.

I really recommend watching it first.

Limbo can very much do ANYTHING if you know how to use him correctly.

[Ikusi_Prime]

3 hours ago, MaxedCarp said:

Have you watched this video yet?

This is a guide that contains everything about Limbo. His kit, his abilities, synergies, subsumes, bugs and glitches, issues, updates and changes and suggests decent ideas for a rework / changes for his kit and / or his synergies or augments in a way that wouldn't affect his current playstyle.

I really recommend watching it first.

Limbo can very much do ANYTHING if you know how to use him correctly.

I've played this game for years. I know how to play Limbo. 

The point that I'm making isn't that Limbo is a bad frame, it's that Limbo is a widely disliked frame that has tons of room for improvement and modernization. 

Limbo *can* do most missions, but is an active detriment in some mission types where slowing down enemy waves hinders progression, like high-level Survival. 

Needing to completely change your build in order to function across different mission types is not a hoop other frames need to jump through. 

Nullifier bubbles suck, and Eximus enemies being able to shoot through the Rift feels bad. You can't do anything to bosses, so you might as well play any other frame that has functional abilities. 

[sunderthefirmament]

3 hours ago, MaxedCarp said:

Have you watched this video yet?

It's literally over two hours long.  

 

Here's my take on Limbo.  If you need a two hour video to explain why he isn't actually a blight on the game, or a pages long thesis proposing a rework, you've failed.

[(PSN)Sci-Fi_Freak_YT]

2 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

It's literally over two hours long.  

 

Here's my take on Limbo.  If you need a two hour video to explain why he isn't actually a blight on the game, or a pages long thesis proposing a rework, you've failed.

Yes, the guide could have been 10 minutes maybe even 5, but to cover everything I have learned about him takes a lot of time. And I did not come here to create a simple lecture and reveal builds one would simply copy and never finish the video. I came here to deliver an experience created from passion and anger towards those consumed by impatience. A video that no one will ever forget. If that is what you believe, then that’s ok. But know that you only rob yourself of intrigue, due to your ignorance. 

[sunderthefirmament]

11 minutes ago, (PSN)Sci-Fi_Freak_YT said:

A video that no one will ever forget.

Because it's literally over two hours long.

 

11 minutes ago, (PSN)Sci-Fi_Freak_YT said:

But know that you only rob yourself of intrigue, due to your ignorance.

You say "ignorance."  I say "respect for my own time."

 

You're talking about a guide video for a frame that, when he functioned in his prime, reduced the gameplay to "well, the enemy can't act, so I guess I'll just stare at my phone while this mobile defense timer ticks down."  This isn't high art.  It's Limbo, an embarrassing disaster of game design.  I respect that you're a fan, and apparently quite a dedicated one if that's your video.  But I don't think Limbo is in a good place, and I don't think that any rework that preserves even a fraction of the rift as it currently stands is even worth considering.  

[Joezone619]

A decent rework. Pretty different from what he is now, which is both good and bad, because people don't like changing that much, but limbo very much needs to change.

[KovakAizek]

Video was interesting. Since I played a lot, I didn’t see anything new, but seeing other’s perspective was quite something.

Yes, Limbo aesthetically amazing. He is good at some things, terrible with most. 
 

He has bugs, can be hit by anything glowing, and built like wet paper.

He is my favorite frame, but I’ve come to bitter resentment to how whole kit can be dedicated to CC so much that the end result will be equal to any Radial CC ability. Caster, weapon platform, support? It’s his roles, and he is terrible at all of them. 

[DJAnym]

On 2024-10-01 at 11:21 PM, Ikusi_Prime said:

I've played this game for years. I know how to play Limbo. 

The point that I'm making isn't that Limbo is a bad frame, it's that Limbo is a widely disliked frame that has tons of room for improvement and modernization. 

Limbo *can* do most missions, but is an active detriment in some mission types where slowing down enemy waves hinders progression, like high-level Survival. 

Needing to completely change your build in order to function across different mission types is not a hoop other frames need to jump through. 

Nullifier bubbles suck, and Eximus enemies being able to shoot through the Rift feels bad. You can't do anything to bosses, so you might as well play any other frame that has functional abilities. 

Here's the thing. Whilst nullifiers suck, if you would've seen that video, you would've learned that banished enemies won't be removed from the rift even with a nullifier on them. The ONLY reason people (admittedly including me) say that nullifiers are the bane of Limbo's existence, is because they use cataclysm as a crutch. That is not a problem of the frame, that is a problem of the player. 

As for Eximi, only their abilities work through the rift (like any ability, ally and enemy alike). Stasis still blocks any and all weapon fire. Flamethrowers, grenades, rocket launches, normal rifles, etc. all get locked. The ONE thing you need to do is pay the tiniest bit of attention, and remove the overguard. The second overguard is removed, no more problem. 

And no, I don't care what anyone says, I don't think his kit is bad at its core. It's a problem of smaller QoL things, an unwillingness of the community to learn, and of how his kit is explained.

Edited October 9 by DJAnym

[Ikusi_Prime]

9 hours ago, DJAnym said:

Here's the thing. Whilst nullifiers suck, if you would've seen that video, you would've learned that banished enemies won't be removed from the rift even with a nullifier on them. The ONLY reason people (admittedly including me) say that nullifiers are the bane of Limbo's existence, is because they use cataclysm as a crutch. That is not a problem of the frame, that is a problem of the player. 

As for Eximi, only their abilities work through the rift (like any ability, ally and enemy alike). Stasis still blocks any and all weapon fire. Flamethrowers, grenades, rocket launches, normal rifles, etc. all get locked. The ONE thing you need to do is pay the tiniest bit of attention, and remove the overguard. The second overguard is removed, no more problem. 

And no, I don't care what anyone says, I don't think his kit is bad at its core. It's a problem of smaller QoL things, an unwillingness of the community to learn, and of how his kit is explained.

I don't see wanting my ability to behave as advertised without watching hours of a guide video and using a specific mod setup is using Cataclysm as a "crutch". 

The fantasy of Cataclysm is to put a giant area of the map into The Rift. The fact that you have to completely ignore this cool fantasy and use your Cataclysm like a bootleg Frost Dome or Rift Surge spreader feels bad. It's bad design. 

Patronizing people because they don't want to jump through tons of hoops to make the frame playable doesn't help anybody. The point is that every other frame works right out of the box. Limbo doesn't. You need to mod him to hell and back in order to produce something useable, which means there is absolutely room to improve the base mechanics.