[Idea] Charge, Spin, Etc As Multipliers

[holyicon]

Yup, another one of these threads; though, I haven't found this particular solution mentioned yet.

The way things are Melee Damage is separated into several distinct and inexplicably unrelated types:

Basic Physical (I, P, S), Charged, Spin, Leap, Wall and Finisher.

This creates two build philosophies: (1) boost basic melee damage or (2) charged damage.
Though what this results in, weapons that can do significantly more basic damage than charged damage.
Obviously this is a designed game mechanic, but it makes no physical sense if translated to the real world.
And before you say "but this is just a game", let me remind you that for the most part, bullets, armor and many other in-game elements are being handled according to how their real-world analogs behave (for the most part).

Rather than have a base Charged damage, I feel that a melee weapon should have a Charged Multiplier. In this way, psychical damage mods can affect charged damage before the multiplier is applied. The multiplier is affected by charged damage cards by adding the percent of the mod to the multiplier as a rational decimal value (Ergo +120% Charged Damage converted to "+1.2 extra Charged Multiple") Note that this is not the same way Critical Damage mods alter their corresponding multiplier.

The order of operation for an attack would be thus.
- First the Physical damage is added up [impact + Puncture + Slash].
- Then the Elemental damage is added.
- Then the Critical multiplier is applied if successful (Multiplier is half if Charged attack was used).
- Finally the relevant Charge, Spin, Etc... multiplier is applied to the applicable damages individually.

So, let's imagine we have a Melee weapon: Let's call it the "Teztor".

Teztor

3.0 … Impact Damage
3.0 … Puncture Damage
14.0 … Slash Damage  … (20 Total Physical Damage)

3.2× | 15% … Critical
2.5× … Charge

6.0× … Spin
3.0× … Leap
10.0× … Wall
5.5× … Finisher

5.0% … Status

2.1 … Fire Rate

3.1 … Charge Speed
 

And let's also imagine that we've put a Rank 1 Killing Blow (+50%) and Rank 2 North Wind (+30%).
For simplicity I'm combining physical types here, but the game would do this for each then weight them based on the target as per DM2.0 Rules.
So a Normal attack would do 20 Physical damage and an extra 6 Cold Damage (26 Damage per basic attack).

A Charged attack would multiply each damage type by 3. That's 2.5 innate plus .5 from the mod.
Or 60 Physical Damage and an extra 18 Cold Damage (78 Damage per charged attack).

Note that 26 × 3 also would be 78 damage "3(20) + 3(6) = 3(26)".

Now, imagine if that charged attack crit?
For simplicity I'm combining physical with elemental here, rather than multiplying each and adding together, it's the same total damage, in in-game math would, again follow the DM2.0 rules resulting in the same total vs. enemies that are not especially effected or resistant to the included types.
So a basic critical attack would deal 26 × 3.2 = 83.2 damage.
And a charged critical attack would deal 26 × 1.6 × 3 = 124.8 damage.

 

So, I'm sure you noticed (if you missed the implication made by the title) that I also converted the other melee damage types: spin, wall, etc... into multipliers rather than straight damage values. This is of course so that they may also benefit from damage buffing mods in a more straightforward and realistically consistent manner.


Thank you for reading. ^^ I realize that there are at least 26.8 Bajillion other "Fix Melee" posts, but I hope this one is not too offensively transformative and has some resonance with the public even at the risk of it being redundant based on my inability to effectively search the archives for similarly constructed suggestions. ><;;

 

Speaking of those other posts, check out:
Melee Tweaks by Azamagon

Edited December 7, 2013 by holyicon

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I've been a fan of such a system for quite a while.  Of course, your Tetzor would mean that we'd all be bouncing off the walls to try to get that magical 10x, but the idea itself is something I'd be happy with.

[Monolake]

Yes! This would make much more sense, would be more transparent to players (as current system is confusing and some values are hidden) and would allow skilled melee attacks to scale better. 

[Naqel]

Personally I'd prefer a "combo stage" system.

You hit an enemy, it increases your combo, charged and special attacks increase it more.

 

Say, your combo multiplier is 125%.

 

1st hit is 100% damage.

2nd is 125%(100%*125%).

3rd is 156.25% damage(100%*125%*125%).

ect.

 

Charge attacks have charge stages that alow you to start/increase a combo multiple stages at a time.

 

Combo resets if you or get staggered, knocked over, or 'drop' it for whatever other reason.

 

Essentialy, your damage grows exponentially untill you kill your target, or they respond with a counter attack.

 

This creates an interesting risk reward mechanic where at some point, you'll be dealing super heavy hits, quickly terminating groups of enemies, but only if you have excellent timing and perfect execution.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Naqel

[holyicon]

Personally I'd prefer a "combo stage" system.

 

...snip...

 

That's a neat idea, and I would like it very much if they added such a system instead of, or in some form of combination with mine ^^

[DoomFruit]

Looking at the title make me assume that your post was about quantum mechanics. I'm disappointed :(

 

Back on topic, the most likely reason for charge damage not being a base multiplier is probably because they've put a bit of effort into balancing normal attacks against charge attacks (or at least tried to). With Pressure Point boosting charge damage as well, there would be no reason at all to use normal strikes.

[holyicon]

Looking at the title make me assume that your post was about quantum mechanics. I'm disappointed :(

 

Back on topic, the most likely reason for charge damage not being a base multiplier is probably because they've put a bit of effort into balancing normal attacks against charge attacks (or at least tried to). With Pressure Point boosting charge damage as well, there would be no reason at all to use normal strikes.

 

Off topic: hehehehe Well now we just need a Melee mod called "Superposition" that calculates all possible realities before you strike the enemy and then uses an Observation Regression Model to choose the most favorable outcome.

 

On topic: You raise a good point (+1). That the Charge multiple should take into account that individual melee weapons would be balanced either as High Base Damage + Low Multiplier for melee geared towards combos, or Low Base Damage + High Multiplier for melee geared towards burst damage. Weapons with High Base and High Multiplier would have some other limiting factor, such as low range, swing speed or charge speed.

And for weapons with a slow charge speed, there's a natural reason to use normal attacks when tactically appropriate. -^

[CannaWhoopazz]

Personally I'd prefer a "combo stage" system.

You hit an enemy, it increases your combo, charged and special attacks increase it more.

 

 

I would like that as a system too!  

 

The Multiplier system for other attacks is awesome though!  The +charge dmg mods will still work, they can just increase the multiplier!  (it's honestly how it should be)

[Azamagon]

@OP:
This system would be FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR better than the current one! Take my +1 :D

 

Some constructive thoughts about it - Similar to DoomFruit's thought, this would make Chargeattacks too strong. But even before seeing your suggestion I always wanted to have a change in the melee mods entirely anyway. The changes I'm thinking of also goes really well with your system:

 

* Regular melee damage boosters (Pressure Point etc) should increase the general damage.

* Charge melee damage boosters (Killing Blow etc) should give you the melee equivalent to multishot! Rename it to Shadow Strike / Blood Wind, or whatever, and add cool shadowy animations or something when the multistrike procs.

 

Thus with our stuff combined

- Your suggesion gives a FAR more intuitive and easy to understand system to work with!

- My above modchange suggestions gives melee a better way to scale!

Sure, there is more to fix than that to make melee truly viable (such as making blocking a worthwhile mechanic), but this would go a long way to help melee!

 

... Can I add a link to your thread in my own Melee Tweaks thread? :) (This one: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/89931-melee-tweaks/ ) I just really like your ideas here ^^

Edited December 6, 2013 by Azamagon

[holyicon]

... Can I add a link to your thread in my own Melee Tweaks thread? :) (This one: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/89931-melee-tweaks/ ) I just really like your ideas here ^^

Be my guest^^

[Azamagon]

Be my guest^^

Thanks :)