More Impact / Puncture / Slash Distribution Between Weapons

[Azamagon]

The distribution of I/P/S between weapons have been fairly good imo. But, the melee weapons, they need far more variety. It's mostly just Slash weapons at the moment. Also there are few primary and secondary weapons that needs slight tweaks. This is a rather big compilation of weapons, so I'll keep it in spoilers.

 

Also note: This is ONLY about stat distributions, not other balance issues!

 

MELEE WEAPONS:

Melee weapons in general:

Melee weapons seemed to be handled kinda randomly, at least with bladelike weapons and their shapes. When deciding the damagetypes for them, you need to take a simple LOOK at the weapon to make sense of how they should be handled. Bladed weapons should indeed all have slash damage to some extent, but there is more to it than that:

* Straighter/flatter blades can cut, yes, but they are more "blunt" in nature than curved blades, and should thus have a bit more Impact-damage (still more in Slash ofc)

* Curved blades should be far MORE Slash-focused weapons.

* Also, more "triangular" blades (such as the Dark Dagger) should be greater for Puncture.

 

I would even say this general distribution melee weapons:

* Pointy blade = Focus on Puncture+Slash (Sickles, Scythes, some Daggers, some Swords)

* Curved blade = Focus on Slash (Mostly Swords, some Daggers)

* Flat, heavy blade = Focus on Impact+Slash (Mostly Axes, some Swords)

* Blunt = Focus on Impact

(Note: They should all still have a variety of Impact/Slash/Puncture of course)

Now let's get more specific!

 

Light melee weapons (Daggers and Fistweapons):

*** General concept: Daggers = Slash/Puncture, Fistweapons = Impact

* Ceramic Dagger = Being a curved dagger, this one should be focused on Slash, not Puncture

* Dark Dagger = Opposite of Ceramic - Is currently Slash focused, but should be based on Puncture. I mean, just look at it!

* Fang Prime = Has NO Slash whatsoever, why so? Very inconsistent.

* Heat Dagger = Why not add innate Fire-damage? Yes, as a 4th element! Also, should be more focused on Slash than Puncture imo (Very anti-infested just like the Heat Sword(s)!)

* Ether Daggers = To simulate their old "ether" feel, these could be 50/50 on Slash and Puncture, with next to no Impact at all.

* Obex = Should have Electricity/Magnetic on regular attacks too. Yes, as a 4th element!

* Furax = Due to its spikeyness, why not let this have high amounts of both Impact and Puncture?

 

Looking at physical damages of the weapons, we then get these types:

Slash - Heat Dagger, Ceramic Dagger

Puncture - Dark Dagger, Fang(s)

Slash/Puncture - Ether Daggers (needs to be brought back to the market again)

Impact - Kogake, Ankyros, Obex

Impact/Puncture - Furax

 

Mediumsized melee weapons (Swords, Axes, Sickles, Batons & Whips)

*** General concept: Swords = Slash, Axes = Slash/Impact, Sickles = Puncture/Slash, Batons = Impact, Whips = Slash

* Cronus = Curved sword just screams SLASH! It does, but for some strange reason also has quite high Impact, which maybe should be reduced (make Cronus super Slash-focused imo). It is the swordequivalent to Ceramic Dagger after all.

* Dark Sword = The first tricky sword to balance - Could still be high with Slash, but to be consistent with Dark Dagger, could have decent (or even mainly?) Puncture values as well. It also looks kinda heavy, so slightly higher Impact than the average sword would make sense too. For now, I'd make it mainly Puncture, second in Slash, but still also quite high in Impact (think a ratio of 3:2:1 for P/S/I)

* Pangolin Sword = The second tricky sword to balance - Since this is pretty much the Sword-version of Fang (look at their blades, both have the "snakescale" type), a high amount of Puncture would make sense. But it is also quite "blunt", so some decent Impact would also make sense. But since it also looks like a sharp sword, high Slash would ALSO make sense. Maybe make it a sword with a somewhat equal balance of the three stats? (I'd say a 3:4:2 ratio between P/S/I).

* Heat Sword(s) = Why not add innate Fire-damage? Yes, as a 4th element!

* Ether Sword(s) = Just like with the daggers: To simulate their old "ether" feel, these could be 50/50 on Slash and Puncture, with next to no Impact at all.

* Jaw Sword = This one has high focus on Puncture, but I'd make this more 50/50 between Slash and Puncture (and next to no Impact), being so thin, sharplooking and serrated. It'd then be the slower and stronger equivalent to the Ether Sword!

* Mire = Look at this thing. It looks so POINTY! It received Toxin as a 4th element (YEY!) but make its main physical element be Puncture, due to the pointyness. It could still also have decent Slash though. Why not also make this a Biolab weapon btw?

* Machete(s) = As I see the Machete being pretty much as a hybrid (lookwise) between a Sword and an Axe, i think it could have both high Slash and Impact values (mostly Slash though).

* Dual Zoren = Could still be highest in Slash. They are light, so no need to increase their Impactvalues imo (despite being axes)

* Dual Cleaver = Yes, Cleavers are sharp (high Slash), but they are also heavy and flat, thus should have quite high Impact values (maybe have Impact and Slash as joint highest values?)

* Dual Ichor = Why only Toxin? Why not add slight Impact/Slash/Puncture too? In fact, I'd make it have rather balanced physical stats (maybe a tad more Impact?)

* Kama(s) = Considering how pointy these are, why not make this focused on Puncture? Slash can still be decently high of course.

* Prova(s) = Only Electricity? Why not also a decent amount of Impact at least? (It could, like most Melee weapons, have all 3 basic types too, but ofc mostly focused on Impact and Electricity)

* Lecta = As a Whip-weapon, shouldn't this also have Slash at least? Only Electriticy seems a little weird to me. (It could, like most Melee weapons, have all 3 basic types too, but ofc very focused on Slash and Electricity)

 

Looking at the physical damages of the weapons, we then get these types:

Slash - Dakra Prime, Cronus, Skana(s), Heat Sword(s), Zoren, Lecta

Puncture - Kama(s), Dark Sword, Mire

Puncture/Slash - Ether Sword(s), Jaw Sword

Impact/Slash - Cleavers, Machete(s)

Impact - Prova(s)

Balanced - Pangolin Sword, Ichor

NOTE: Plasma Sword is not mentioned here, as it is part of a different suggestion in the ranged weapon lists (about Plasma and Laser weapons)

 

Heavy/Long melee weapons (Greatswords, Greataxes, Scythes, Hammers, Staves and Spears)

*** General concept: Greatswords = Slash, Greataxes = Slash/Impact, Sickles = Puncture/Slash, Hammers and Staves = Impact, Spears = Slash/Puncture

* Galatine = Since it is so flat, i think the Galatine should be a bit higher in Impact, but still by the highest in Slash (Gram can then be the main "Slash"-focused Heavy weapon, and thus the Gram doesn't need any changes)

* Scindo = Could have more Impact too (while still higher on Slash), due to being a heavy axe.

* Ether Reaper - Should be a mix of Puncture and Slash with next to no Impact (To be consistent with the other Ether weapons and because it also actually makes sense).

* Hate - Could be similar to Ether Reaper, but with a bit more focus on Puncture and slightly less on Slash.

* Reaper Prime - This Scythe that should be the highest on Puncture imo (and thus the most Puncturefocused Heavy weapon too)

* Fragor = It's good, but why not even MORE focus on Impact?

* Amphis = Why not add innate Electricity-damage? Yes, as a 4th element!

* Orthos = Since you make stabs and slashes with this weapon, why not make it slightly higher in Puncture (just a little)?

* Orthos Prime = This weapon looks blunter than the regular Orthos, thus a bit more Impact on it. In fact, I'd make it far more balanced between the 3 stats. Slashy blades? Yup. Pointy edges? Yup. Bluntlike heads? Yup. So it makes sense really.

 

Looking at the physical damages of the weapons, we then get these types:

Slash - Gram, Galatine, Orthos

Puncture - Reaper Prime, Hate

Puncture/Slash - Ether Reaper

Impact/Slash - Scindo

Impact - Fragor, Amphis, Bo

Balanced - Orthos Prime

 

Melee weapon skins:

Some of these skins could change the weapons' damagetypes. I'm mostly thinking of Zoren's and Scindo's Daggeraxe skins, Scindo's Manticore and Fragor's Brokk. How i would change them:

* Daggeraxe skins - Reduces impact values almost completely, very slightly reduces slashvalues, but increases Puncture as compensation.

* Manticore - Reduce Slash heavily, increase Puncture and Impactvalues instead. Remove the other advantages/disadvantages this skin does (the damage/charge/speed stuff)

* Brokk - Increase Puncture a little, reduce Impact a little. Remove the other advantages/disadvantages this skin does (the damage/charge/speed stuff)

* Alternatively, make the Daggeraxes, Manticore and Brokk into new weapons!  The Brokk and Manticore would then fill the nonexisting niche of heavy weapons with a split on Puncture and Impact! The Dual Daggeraxes and Heavy Daggeraxe would be Slash weapons with quite high Puncture (quite similar to the Ether weapons)

 

Thrown melee weapons:

These were handled pretty well. But I'd make one change:

* Regualr Glaive - More Puncture (it is more pointy). Maybe 50/50 on Slash and Puncture?

Glaive Prime is more round, thus fits as Slash. Kestrel is blunt, thus fits as Impact. Then we have one throwing melee weapon for each type!

 

PRIMARY AND SECONDARY WEAPONS:

Bullet based weapons & Shotguns:

These were all handled pretty well in general, with a few minor exceptions:

* Tigris - A shotgun with just 2 shots, fitting for a real powerhousegun, has Slash damage. A damage type that is best against an enemy type (Light Infested) that mostly comes in swarms... Ok, that just doesn't work very well. Make any other shotgun more Slash based (Boar + Boar Prime perhaps? Fits with its name too (Razory Boar-tusks!), and make Tigris more Impact and/or Puncture based. Also, why the weird shootingmechanic? Why can't just be a regular semi-automatic (with really high rate of fire)?

* Lato - The single pistol displays half the damage of the AkLato, which is clearly wrong (they should be dealing just as much). Compare any single vs dual pistol and you will see what I mean. Is this a bug or a mistake?

* Impactbased bulletweapons - I'm kind of surprised that there is such a lack of Impact-focused bulletweapons (it doesn't bother me so much though, just weird, since you know a Bullet is kinda the perfect example of Impact-damage): Gorgon is semi-retired, Braton Vandal is exclusive, Vulkar and Vectis are there, but they are snipers only. Braton Prime is the only regular rifle obtainable with Impactfocus. Maybe Grakata or Hind could also be Impact focused (they are allrounded right now)? Braton and Burston as allround is ok, since they are lower tier weapons and lower tier weapons should be more allrounded, rather than specialized (This gives you a far less powercreepy sense of progression imo).

 

Bolt based weapons & Thrown secondaries:

* Bolto - Why no Slash at all? All other "bolt" weapons have at least some Slash, even Boltor...

* Twin Gremlins - These have allrounded stats (equal on all stats), why not a slight more focus on Puncture? They are bolts after all...

* Hikou - Why not give this more Slash damage (like, at least joint highest with Puncture). Otherwise this weapon is too similar to Kunai and Despair.

* Kunai - This would be fitting to be more allround (or maybe more towards Impact, maybe joint highest with Puncture.) Doing this for Kunai, you would then have Despair for Puncture, Kunai for Allround / Impact+Puncture and Hikou for Slash (+Puncture). That'd give you far more varied stats between them.

 

Laser & Plasma weapons:

This segment of weapons are the hardest for me to give "normal" feedback on, since I think changing these weapons require changing some elemental combos:

* Heat + Electricity = Radiation Plasma element - I would make the Radiation element (Fire + Electricity) become a PLASMA element instead! Plasma is (most often) extremely warm and is based around electrons, so this makes much sense imo. What Plasma would have as a proc though, I dunno. Maybe some form of simple instant damage aoe? Considering weaknesses etc, I can see Plasma being good against most things. So what its strengths could be, I dunno.

* Heat + Toxin = Gas Radiation element - Since I think an element known only as GAS is really... dull, I'd change the Gas element's name into Radiation instead. It just makes so much sense. Wether its proc stays as some form of targetlingering AoE-damage (which makes sense for Radiation), or gets to have the Confusion effect (or both), doesn't matter. The weaknesses/resistances could be the same as the current Gas-values of course.

I've touched more about the elements in here, if you are interested: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/140103-how-i-would-rebalance-damage-20/

 

Now with that said, let's go over the Plasma- and Laserweapons:

* Cestra + Dera + Supra (+ maybe Seer and unlikely Lanka?) = I would consider all these Plasma weapons (yes Supra is PLASMA, due to travelling time!) to then have PURE PLASMA damage! (Plasma Sword could have P/S/I + Plasma, with highest being Plasma and Slash)

* Flux Rifle + Spectra = Since they are Lasers, why not make them pure HEAT damage instead? Heat is one of the better elements anyway, so I don't see a big issue with a change like that. They make no sense to have Slash, as Lasers don't exactly make you bleed...

 

Please comment on the suggested statdistributions, if you agreed / disagreed etc. :)

 

(NOTE: I'd gladly have more opinions IN PARTICULAR for the Pangolin Sword and Dark Sword!)

 

EDIT: If you think it is bad that some weapons have more varied stats, please take into consideration that I also think there should be SLIGHT more variety of Shields/Armor/Health within each faction. Like I'm talking about in here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/136785-damage-20-abilities-and-enemy-diversity/

Edited December 4, 2013 by Azamagon

[Kolos1001]

They def need to adjust certain weapons like supra mire heat sword etc. They should have elements not just random physical stats. 

[OblivionNecroninja]

Agreed. Does DE even know ANYTHING about Melee weapons?

[Jeerome0406]

Literally, you read my mind with that list.

And the plasma addition at the end?

DE has to see this, they HAVE to! It needs to be done.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

If nothing else changing Radiation to Plasma and Gas to Radiation needs to happen.

[Kyphe]

I am so glad I searched for this before basically typing out the very same thing lol

 

Just got the jaw sword to have at least one melee that was effective against grineer, low dps compared to most but still, I took a level zero sword on a level 15 grinner exterminate mission and did nothing but melee kills apart from one headshot.

 

I fully agree that anything that looks stabby should have high puncture, anything with a decent blade or serations should have good slash, and anything chunky or heavy looking should do good impact

Edited December 9, 2013 by Kyphe

[ShadesofWhites]

All of this.

 

Tired of being forced into 4 of my favorite looking/working melee weapons ALL being slash, and slash alone.

 

 

Then there is this:

 

Why am I using X when X has Slash AND 3x Damage to Infested?

[KittyDarkling]

    I'm surprised by how much I agree with this to be honest.. most long winded lists like this are a mixed bag of good and bad but this... this is good.. I mean I'm a little skeptical about the plasma part but... honestly this is quite good.

 

    Personally I like gas. But so long as it's effects were carried on (AOE damage) Then maybe I could part with it... maybe..

 

 

    Though do note where the elemental change might make sense, the reason they have them the way they are now is to make them more effective against the greneer. To make plasma effective against them would take a little bit of planning. currently half the greneer are weak against radiation. however if we shift that to plasma, and have the infested weak against radiation (their cells do divide more then humans!)

 

    Even this wouldn't properly balance things though. because then the corpus would be doing -a lot- of damage to half the greneer and fairly little to the other half. So then we'd have to have it be "effective but not to effective" which normally is the place holder for base elements, not combined ones. This isn't to say it's imposable, but it does require thought.

 

    Likely the best outcome would be that plasma takes on a secondary minor buff of damage to Greneer. I'm not sure but I think blast and viral are in this boat. so it would still be balanced but not ideal. otherwise it would screw up invasions.