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Saving Warframe From The Inevitable End; The End Game


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You know you should stop using methaphors when they sound like bad jokes. Don't get me started on the one with the lions :P

Feel free to discuss anything you want, but telling me not to discuss a possible endgame( PvP/E) in an endgame thread is just belony.

Well... I did say I wanted to keep it PvE. Alright, topic changed from Endgame to PvE endgame. Jury adjourned.

Edited by Darkevony
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Persistence? Yes. Territory control perks? Sure. The scale at which you want to accomplish this? Not likely.

I like some of the ideas presented in this thread but I feel like there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what this game is compared to what those in this thread want it to be. If you want a game with an open-world aspect and large groups of players in the same area working together you might try Firefall or Defiance; this is more like Vindictus in space. Unless I've completely misinterpreted the back story, the Tenno are not a numerous force prepared for a war-like scenario. They are a relatively limited number of survivors from an ancient civilization that seem to work best in small cells and each have a unique character archetype, similar to how each champion is unique in League of Legends (original concept referenced in the livestream, though it may be redacted later.).

I agree that we need a more sustainable end game but I don't necessarily agree this is the right or only way to provide one. Also consider that this is closed beta far from release, there's a fine line between being proactive and paranoid. Let the lore build up more before deciding we need to engage in a war; we don't even know who we are or what we're fighting for (or if we're even the protagonists).

It's good that you don't want to see Warframe die, I don't think anyone here does; but you have to let it live first. Warframe as we know it is a small scale instance based game about completing missions for what will eventually turn into a story. Asking it to become a medium or large scale persistent shooter as an endgame in addition to the normal missions is asking a lot of the mechanics and of the developers. Conversely, an open-air battlefield could make for an interesting mission type with the planet-side tilesets. However, the player number should remain at 4; 8 tops: we are Tenno, not space marines.

Bottom line: shrink the scale a bit and some of these ideas could turn into pretty interesting mission types but anything too large is just not a good fit for the direction this game is going.

Edit: I don't agree with everything here either but perhaps you can flesh this idea out better?

Edited by Tenebraex
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Basically... You are suggesting developers to create a completelly different and new game. I am not saying this is imposible, but just imagine for a moment... Just a moment... Amount of money and time they need to do this and there is always a huge risk about public opinion. The idea is great, I would say even EPIC, but it won't be easy, nor fast thing to do. And as for PVP, there could be PVP in Warframe. To cover the story loophole as for reason why is there tenno fighting other tenno, simple answer - sparring, for fun and to sharpen battle skills. I think a little PVP between no more than 4 players in one holographic sparring room wouldn't hurt.

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In relation to the Topic (seeing how some people are tryin to change it to a PVP endgame)... It'd be tricky to get a good size map in all of this and the update that would hold it would most likely take a whole hour for a good computer to download it. I'm seeing 2 different sizes here, one medium and a large.

Medium is you attack a single base at a time with the actual Earth as a additional mapping area (such as the solar system and space mapping to play missions). Be easier and less coding since it's just making more of the maps... but have the starting area like jumping off a small ship that drops you in a location a small way away from the base and you have to clear the entrance to get in and hack the terminal to get inside (Planets without Oxygen would probably get a timer on getting inside since Tenno aren't installed with permentant tanks that can be supplied)

Once inside, do a series of missions as you stated... Sabotage, Raid, Exterminate, and Whatever else can be thought of. (And if it can be helped... add a few hidden rooms off of Radar that contain a few extra components just for kicks... added Raid aspect)

However, since it's base related and not a starship... it needs a few new art designs and maybe a few new enemies that couldn't go into space (harder to kill since they're surface only).

Of course as you're going in and attacking the base, there might be a chance that another faction is doing the same thing and you might bumb into a massive gun fight between them (Grineer and Infection having at it as you head to the adjective)

Large size map is what you were mentioning... just one Large map with a bunch of bases where you have to get between each one of them and complete the objectives at them with multible factions trying to kill you and each other. Take a lot of time to make and might not be perfect on the first attempt at something so Levaithon (forgive my spelling, but you get the idea)

Last thing I'm looking at is the Warframe usefulness in all of it. Ofcourse Loki and Ash might be stealth and might not fit in that well since well... they're used for stealth and that can be useful in most missions. But also look at other Warframes and their abilities like Ember. She might be a gasiline tank ready to go off at any moment to kill everyone, but objective-wise, she really doesn't have anything unique. If Certain Warframes can alter the condition inside the base (such as a overheat or freeze) it can be used in a advantage way (Corpus bases have a lot of enemies with shields, so freezing their base would not only be a loss of your own shield, it can also benefit you by reducing theirs). If you can think of unique ways a Warframe can alter the field for everyone's advantage, it'd be a good way to make a great endgame field.

Off-topic response below :P

Basically... You are suggesting developers to create a completelly different and new game. I am not saying this is imposible, but just imagine for a moment... Just a moment... Amount of money and time they need to do this and there is always a huge risk about public opinion. The idea is great, I would say even EPIC, but it won't be easy, nor fast thing to do. And as for PVP, there could be PVP in Warframe. To cover the story loophole as for reason why is there tenno fighting other tenno, simple answer - sparring, for fun and to sharpen battle skills. I think a little PVP between no more than 4 players in one holographic sparring room wouldn't hurt.

^ That's actually a good idea since it isn't real pvp, just harmless sparring. However it'd most likely be set between Friends (Contacts) and Clan Members. Mainly due to the reason that if you just randomly spar with random people, it'd do nothing for anyone.

Certain modes with sparing such as First strike (first person to hit 30%hp loses) or Stardard (players fight until one hits 1hp) would be a nice idea for it too :P (Btw, for those who don't know, I just pulled a Sword Art Online reference lol)

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Basically... You are suggesting developers to create a completelly different and new game. I am not saying this is imposible, but just imagine for a moment... Just a moment... Amount of money and time they need to do this and there is always a huge risk about public opinion. The idea is great, I would say even EPIC, but it won't be easy, nor fast thing to do. And as for PVP, there could be PVP in Warframe. To cover the story loophole as for reason why is there tenno fighting other tenno, simple answer - sparring, for fun and to sharpen battle skills. I think a little PVP between no more than 4 players in one holographic sparring room wouldn't hurt.

Not sure what glue you're on, Tenno have never fought each other. As for money constraints, I'd like to tell you as blatantly as possible... I'm not stupid. I know everything involved in trying to make something of this magnitude. Do you take me for an idiot boy? Do you think the entire thread was for show?

My joking quo aside, no, but seriously. It doesn't have to be now, it doesn't have to take a lot of money, and as for PvP, please leave that topic for elsewhere. It's erking me how many people think PvP would be a good idea. You damned CoD kids, get off my lawn!

Edited by Darkevony
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In relation to the Topic (seeing how some people are tryin to change it to a PVP endgame)... It'd be tricky to get a good size map in all of this and the update that would hold it would most likely take a whole hour for a good computer to download it. I'm seeing 2 different sizes here, one medium and a large.

Medium is you attack a single base at a time with the actual Earth as a additional mapping area (such as the solar system and space mapping to play missions). Be easier and less coding since it's just making more of the maps... but have the starting area like jumping off a small ship that drops you in a location a small way away from the base and you have to clear the entrance to get in and hack the terminal to get inside (Planets without Oxygen would probably get a timer on getting inside since Tenno aren't installed with permentant tanks that can be supplied)

Once inside, do a series of missions as you stated... Sabotage, Raid, Exterminate, and Whatever else can be thought of. (And if it can be helped... add a few hidden rooms off of Radar that contain a few extra components just for kicks... added Raid aspect)

However, since it's base related and not a starship... it needs a few new art designs and maybe a few new enemies that couldn't go into space (harder to kill since they're surface only).

Of course as you're going in and attacking the base, there might be a chance that another faction is doing the same thing and you might bumb into a massive gun fight between them (Grineer and Infection having at it as you head to the adjective)

Large size map is what you were mentioning... just one Large map with a bunch of bases where you have to get between each one of them and complete the objectives at them with multible factions trying to kill you and each other. Take a lot of time to make and might not be perfect on the first attempt at something so Levaithon (forgive my spelling, but you get the idea)

Last thing I'm looking at is the Warframe usefulness in all of it. Ofcourse Loki and Ash might be stealth and might not fit in that well since well... they're used for stealth and that can be useful in most missions. But also look at other Warframes and their abilities like Ember. She might be a gasiline tank ready to go off at any moment to kill everyone, but objective-wise, she really doesn't have anything unique. If Certain Warframes can alter the condition inside the base (such as a overheat or freeze) it can be used in a advantage way (Corpus bases have a lot of enemies with shields, so freezing their base would not only be a loss of your own shield, it can also benefit you by reducing theirs). If you can think of unique ways a Warframe can alter the field for everyone's advantage, it'd be a good way to make a great endgame field.

Off-topic response below :P

^ That's actually a good idea since it isn't real pvp, just harmless sparring. However it'd most likely be set between Friends (Contacts) and Clan Members. Mainly due to the reason that if you just randomly spar with random people, it'd do nothing for anyone.

Certain modes with sparing such as First strike (first person to hit 30%hp loses) or Stardard (players fight until one hits 1hp) would be a nice idea for it too :P (Btw, for those who don't know, I just pulled a Sword Art Online reference lol)

1. It really doesn't have to be 2 sizes... It can still stay reletively small while holding many bases. The note that I tried to portray as far as the skies reached while writing this was "Enough to fit this War." If the self generated maps of now where to be amalgamated into an open space, it could fit all of it. :T People don't understand scale it seems...

2. I DID include Warframe uses. :c Why can't people read?

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1. It really doesn't have to be 2 sizes... It can still stay reletively small while holding many bases. The note that I tried to portray as far as the skies reached while writing this was "Enough to fit this War." If the self generated maps of now where to be amalgamated into an open space, it could fit all of it. :T People don't understand scale it seems...

2. I DID include Warframe uses. :c Why can't people read?

1. I said that there was 2 ways it can be handled...

2. You listed Loki and Ash... not everyone as individual support and offense/defense lol

I was refering as being able to alter the field with their abilities like Ember and Frost. Those two really don't have much use in team battles unless they're against something they overpower (Ember against Infestation, Frost against Corpus, etc.)

I did read you're whole thing (lot of information btw... might have misread and sorry if I did) I'm just pointing a few things here and there.

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"Cod kid" is way too offensive, mate... You crossed the line. :}

But just accept the fact, we are mere humans and every human is just edging to brag about how big his sword is and how much damage he can deal with it, PVP is a good place for that. As for your idea, I support it completelly, I really loved it, it's thoughtfull and awesome, open world would be the best thing ever in this game.

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"Cod kid" is way too offensive, mate... You crossed the line. :}

But just accept the fact, we are mere humans and every human is just edging to brag about how big his sword is and how much damage he can deal with it, PVP is a good place for that. As for your idea, I support it completelly, I really loved it, it's thoughtfull and awesome, open world would be the best thing ever in this game.

Heh, sorry. Meant it as a joke. A follow up to the next post, which in the end had a "Get off my lawn you darn kids". Anywho, bad jokes aside, I still don't believe in PvP. It isn't that I'm pessemistic, it's just that I feel that not everything should be PvP. There are many great games that have flourished WITHOUT it. Single player campaigns like Skyrim, Psychonauts, all the games of the past, etc. You already have Co-op. Showing off a shiny sword is still available in numbers when you hit an npc.

I just hate the mentality of gamers today. Every game since beginning 2011 has started to cater towards the universal crowd. And the universal crowd asks for PvP/Co-op more than anything. This is how games are ruined. Yatzhee said it once, a game should be able to stand on it's single player or a specific road in which they want to go with, they shouldn't just add a story and then focus on multiplayer. If the main purpose of the game is multiplayer (like TF2) then that's the path it should take. Warframe is not that game. Warframe is not PvP. And honestly, I believe it should never be PvP. What it should be is PvE, and what it should do is try and perfect that aspect.

Edited by Darkevony
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This would be an absolute TON of development time, and not something to be added lightly. Even right now, there's really only 2 tilesets for maps and they are generated randomly. Creating large, pregenerated maps with all these new items and actions would take a long, long time.

Might be worth it. Might not. Endless defense waves, on the other hand, probably took very little time to develop and put in the game. And while you say it's just another "Nazi Zombies" mode, I still have friends that play that, and really, there's a lot less incentive to play that than there is to play warframe. At least in warframe you'd earn something you can take back with you (affinity, credits, materials, etc).

Just a thought.

Honestly, I would prefer to see more enemy types and more tilesets for randomly generated maps before any of this happens, as well as some power balance and improvements, new guns, more frames, etc -- you know, the core of the game. First things first.

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It's just a suggestion so it's not like he's demanding that this become reality, if anything he's made it very clear this is just an idea he's developed and want's to see who else is interested, so perhaps this thread should focus more on possible improvements or refinements for the idea rather than trying to shoot it down?

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Warframe doesn't only fit the PVP formula, it's one of the most fitting games for it. In fact, when I first saw Warframe gameplay, I expected a pure PVP game, only to be disappointed by its non-existance If my friends wouldn't have started playing it I would not be playing it. I've since changed my opinion on the co-op, but not on the pvp.

OP, all you have are opinions so stop calling them "cold hard facts" because they're about as cold and hard as 2 week old bullS#&$. The game isn't set up for pvp right now but with a lot of tweaking and balancing it can be. Don't be so quick to dismiss it, there are a lot of games out there that work under rpg mechanics yet have no PvE whatsoever.

As for your suggestions, they are impractical and infeasible, and do only bring in a limited amount of content which will eventually get tiring. Thus, they are not an end-game.

- it will demand ridiculous resources. 4 players on Xini and my fps drops to about 10 when a big wave hits. Add in Tribes-scale maps, ability spam and even larger hordes of enemies and it will make gameplay impossible. The game's designed with 4 players in tight rooms in mind so models have more polygons and more effects can be rendered at a lower resource cost. For that reason, there's no view distance slider. And from this point of view, your suggestion is on too grand of a scale.

- epic scale does not mean endgame. You can have the most epic war of all time - you'll still get bored of it eventually. They will still need to add new maps all the time. And the rate at which players consume maps will far excel the rate DE can put them out.

I have yet to see an endgame that is not in any way competitive. What Warframe needs are competitive non-pvp elements. We already have rankings, but they're lackluster. Ladders, special tournament events, scalable difficulty, long-term goals, more diversity, user-generated content. The easiest and most effective way to design an endgame is to give people a chance to put themselves against eachother somehow. If not by pvp, then by a rating that says "I'm better than these guys".

So let's take your "what if we make the game so epic it hurts" idea and see if it holds under scrutiny:

- how much would new content take to create for it?

- what are the long-term goals of such a system?

- what makes the galactic control system attractive to players?

- how many elements will have to be redesigned and recalculated to accomodate the new system?

- what are the reasons for players to keep coming back?

An endgame suggestion should attempt to answer all these questions. Yours does not stand up. Feel free to point out where you've answered them in your first post, maybe I missed them. But if you can't, then your suggestion fails to address the endgame.

Edited by krisp
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It's just a suggestion so it's not like he's demanding that this become reality, if anything he's made it very clear this is just an idea he's developed and want's to see who else is interested, so perhaps this thread should focus more on possible improvements or refinements for the idea rather than trying to shoot it down?

Lord I beg you, as I kneel before this righteous man, that I may marry him in holy matrimony. Will you take all my money and my life, have my children and my house? It is all I can offer you as a poor man, but I dare not think twice at the expense of my life to give to you. <3

I no longer have to say anything more. Ever. I will just redirect people who can't think to your post.

Ever Grateful,

Darkevony

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- how much would new content take to create for it?

- what are the long-term goals of such a system?

- what makes the galactic control system attractive to players?

- how many elements will have to be redesigned and recalculated to accomodate the new system?

- what are the reasons for players to keep coming back?

An endgame suggestion should attempt to answer all these questions. Yours does not stand up. Feel free to point out where you've answered them in your first post, maybe I missed them. But if you can't, then your suggestion fails to address the endgame.

And I did. Please re-read.

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Warframe doesn't only fit the PVP formula, it's one of the most fitting games for it. In fact, when I first saw Warframe gameplay, I expected a pure PVP game, only to be disappointed by its non-existance If my friends wouldn't have started playing it I would not be playing it. I've since changed my opinion on the co-op, but not on the pvp.

OP, all you have are opinions so stop calling them "cold hard facts" because they're about as cold and hard as 2 week old bullS#&$. The game isn't set up for pvp right now but with a lot of tweaking and balancing it can be. Don't be so quick to dismiss it, there are a lot of games out there that work under rpg mechanics yet have no PvE whatsoever.

I thought I was the only one of my kind :D

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- how much would new content take to create for it?

- what are the long-term goals of such a system?

- what makes the galactic control system attractive to players?

- how many elements will have to be redesigned and recalculated to accomodate the new system?

- what are the reasons for players to keep coming back?

But to quote you again for the "betterment" of an impersonal online arguement, I will answer, oh good sir of the interwebz

1.

Q. "How much would new content take to create for it?"

A. What if I told you the resources weren't many and the content as well? What if I told you that it is entirely possible? That I didn't just write this entire thread for S#&$s and giggles? I don't mean to sound rude, but MrGrae stated it himself, and quoted by him "It is just an idea he has developed, see who is interested, help develop upon it where ever lacking".

Do you understand the scale of the maps we have currently? Do you understand how they are made? Tiles. Randomized tiles. Each tile is a room. Each game session can span leagues of an area. They built an entire outdoor area within the time span of a month, from update 6 to 7. Not all the War maps have to be open landscapes with the magnitude of Tribes Ascend maps. They don't even have to be that big! As long as A and B are fighitng each other, then we got ourselves a happy little family...

The basic premise was War. Everything else stated by me is suggestion. Alert missions helping the war, the medium-scale maps, etc. I said it once before matey, if your computer can't handle the intencity, so what? Should we do the entire game over because your laptop can't run the game without overheating every 2 minutes? But I digress

2.

Q. "What are the long-term goals of such a system?"

A. I don't know, you tell me. I said I wasn't sure about the rewards, or the stakes, the pros and cons. I stated Platinum and Resource gain rewards, the penalties for losing, see if you can fathom something better.

3.

Q. "What makes the galactic control system attractive to players?"

A. You've had me done there boy. You should check the comments. I think people like the idea of taking part in something big, something that they feel that they are accomplishing. Just an educated guess, don't quote me on that.

4.

Q. "How many elements will have to be redesigned and recalculated to accomodate the new system?"

A. Again with the questions, none, capish?

Serious answer though? None, or at the least, few. Probably a few recalculation on enemy difficulty and numbers, but that's what beta is for. I wrote this all for a reason. I proposed an entirely possible way of making an end-game that didn't require PVP, because as I've said it about a few thousand times now, PVP is improbable, not impossible. I thought of a PvE (Important to note that it is PvE, as recalculating skills and weapons would server no purpose, as it is just a regular PvE fest as it has always been) that could use the regular system as well as it uses socks. I'm sure even kids know how to put on socks, no? Ability spamming is already in the game, as long as there is energy, and again, if your computer can't handle it, by no means will the world stop.

5.

Q. "What are the reasons for players to keep coming back?"

A. Shame on you, repeating questions already asked, being an English connoisseur such as yourself should know better. Same reason why the rewards would be wonderpa! (I.E. Platinum rewards, more weapon slots, more Warframe slots, more weapons, more Warframes.) And if the superficial doesn't account to anything, competitive play! Not PvP, but COMPETITIVE PLAY. And don't tell me that I'm being too quick in dismissing PvP, I gave my reasoning, whether it is wrong or right, you should learn to see as I do. And if you're the quick one to call me a hypocrite, I did say that I understood the need for PvP, I understood the want, and I even tried finding a way to incorporate it. But I found none. You suggest something on a different thread, think you mightly convincing enough instead of complaining here, in a PvE ENDGAME.

You don't understand the words GALACTIC CONTROL very well as how I've been stating them within the thread have you? Let me clarify. In the lore, four factions are in a WAR. It states in the lore, some Warframes use their suits for either honoring the Tenno path by fighting the war, or harnessing their superiority of the suits for their own goals. This lore is a beautiful, beautiful thing. The more vague it is, the more possibilities. Those who seek power also seek assistance. Clans, guilds, scoreboards, galactic control, COMPETITIVE PLAY, and if by now that doesn't spell out the obvious, I shall explain in detail.

My newest proposal, which should go up on the thread under YOUR suggestion, because even if you don't want to be a part of this, I'll honor your name due to your kindness. Oh good, my Sarcasm Processor made it into the internet.

Clan control. Simple enough, the clan with the most players who have reached 100% control on said planet gets to own that planet with their shiny clan emblem allocating their dominance over the area, comes with benefits for owning the planet. The owning of a planet will be reset every 1-2-3-4 weeks. When that happens, if a clan has not managed to gain dominance, then will be their chance. Think of the implications. It adds the incentive to try and build large clans so more people can fight for you to gain dominance over a planet. This will be seperate from individual rewards, which I stated before as "Platinum and resource gain". Perhaps an increase on the amount of platinum gained for every 100%? This will incentivise players to keep playing before their guild becomes outdone, and the fight for higher areas will be larger. It will be chaos, but it will be an interesting chaos. All this aside the intense fight for guild dominance would also mean that the enemies in said war would have to be toughies. There's always room in the beta to test. It is what it was made for.

Scoreboards: Since it is a War, there will be plenty of monsters to kill over and over! Thus, allowing players to farm that scoreboard to their hearts content if they truly wish for something such as that.

~~~

It is sad, yes, but I must part my sweet. And if you TL:DR this like the rest of my writings, please do me the unlikely favor of not responding again until you have a more concise answer. But seeing as how my sarcasm/attitude/ego or whatever has been infused to my writings, I'm sure you'll respond back in a form of a malevolent spite and not of constructive critisicm. And I do so sincerely apologize about my temper and rudeness, dare I say, I know you must feel some of the pain that I do, or have felt this pain. Dealing with unpearmeable forum monkies does have the tendency to crack nerves, especially those who try for "reasoning."

As far as what you had to say in your previous post, you have not provided me evidentual reasoning to your distasteful disagreement, only negative insight and pessimism on why this is a "bad idea". I don't care for modesty boy, I don't care if you'll loathe me simply because I spit at you with words unkind. I only try to correct you so that you may see the errors that I do not, for I understand my wording can be unclear, and most unclear it is, but I can reason, I can understand with evidence, be it facts or ideas. This idea needs refinement, and you do not provide any of it, not facts nor ideas.\

One more thing to note, quoted by you, "Content that will eventually get tiring." Now, I do daresay good man that all games get tiring. If you don't get tired, then hey, different strokes for different folks. I'm trying to extend Warframes lifetime, not belittle it.

Now, being done with my rich-man accentations, I will take my leave.

Edited by Darkevony
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Competetive PvP elements limits your player base to people who enjoy that, and believe it or not, most gamers do not, I am counting casual gamers in this since, as a mission-by-mission system, this game is quite good for casual coop fun. Aside from that, the framerate issues stem from it's P2P system, the lead gamers is hosting the server, if has bandwidth is limited or his hardware insuffiecient then your game will suffer. Darkevony has suggested DE run it's own server, this would address the issue of lag. He has also suggested that this be implemented slowly, at DE's liesure, because yes, it may not work, but how will we know if we don't try? It's not our place to shoot down other peoples' ideas, let the man speak and if you can think of ways to improve his concept then explain your opinion to him but seriously, why shoot him down all the time? Start your own thread about PvP.

Before you do READ THIS THREAD PEOPLE! > https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/6955-please-read-here-before-posting-suggestions-for-pvp/

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But to quote you again for the "betterment" of an impersonal online arguement, I will answer, oh good sir of the interwebz

I'm sorry, there should have been a disclaimer from the very start: I don't argue with condescending blowhards who try too hard to sound classy on the internet. Suffice to say your radical ideas will not be implemented anytime soon for reasons I've already outlined, you know little about game design and your ego's not worth the patience and research needed for a detailed discussion. Go ahead and one-up me with a smart-&amp;#&#33; reply, I won't bother answering you anymore.

Competetive PvP elements limits your player base to people who enjoy that

If they are clearly distinct then this is utterly false. And I don't much care for people who run away in fear of an optional game mode.

He has also suggested that this be implemented slowly, at DE's liesure, because yes, it may not work, but how will we know if we don't try?

Experience, predictive analysis, theorizing, history, discussion, statistics. Maybe you've heard of them. Or maybe you're the type who goes around investing thousands of dollars into doomed projects.

It's not our place to shoot down other peoples' ideas, let the man speak and if you can think of ways to improve his concept then explain your opinion to him but seriously, why shoot him down all the time?

I didn't know criticism was forbidden on these forums. Oh wait it's not.
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I don't need PvP therefor i don't play PvP therefor you won't have me in the PvP playerbase.

Other way round... people who like PvP mostly play PvP therefor not in the PvE playerbase.

You won't "limit" the playerbase you will infact broaden your playerbase because you offer more and you also have players who play PvE and PvP.

Edited by Sophax
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