De, How Are We Going To Fight Grineers Now?

[tehous]

Damage, health, shields and armor all follow the same basic template:

value = base_value + (base_value * multiplier * (npc_level - base_level)^exponent).

The base value and base level are enemy-dependent.

Multiplier and exponent are as follows:

Damage: 0.012, 1.5

Shields: 0.003, 2.5

Health: 0.003, 2.5

Armor: 0.003, 2.5

They apply to all factions.

All factions are equally scaled, but some factions are more scaled than others in other words. I.e. grineer scale faster than other factions.

 

So let's compare the current mess.

 

Lowering the armor scaling exponent to 1.7 mess

 

And finally let's look at what we'd have if scaling of health/shields was based on current level, rather than the difference between current level and spawn level, and there was no armor scaling.

 

The plots are in log scale so the effective health of one mob compared to another can be judged by looking at the distance between curves. If the distance between two curves changes that means that the amount of damage one mob can take compared to another changes, i.e. it is inconsistent. This is easy to spot when two curves crosses which means that first one mob is more durable, then the other.

 

As can be seen in the final plot the distance between curves is constant and the slope is the same for all curves. This means that the scaling is the same for all factions and mobs and that the amount of damage needed to kill one mob compared to another is constant. This is way way more easy to balance compared to what we currently have as you can scale the relative durability by changing base health/shield/armor (shift a curve up or down) independently of changing how fast things scale.

Edited December 19, 2013 by tehous

[Eremes]

is there even any word if there will be a armor 2.4 to save us?

 

im hella tired, wont play this weekend and just couldnt take it on void last weekend because of this new armor scaling issue. 

Edited December 19, 2013 by Eremes

[Kyte]

All factions are equally scaled, but some factions are more scaled than others in other words. I.e. grineer scale faster than other factions.

 

So let's compare the current mess.

Lowering the armor scaling exponent to 1.7 mess

And finally let's look at what we'd have if scaling of health/shields was based on current level, rather than the difference between current level and spawn level, and there was no armor scaling.

The plots are in log scale so the effective health of one mob compared to another can be judged by looking at the distance between curves. If the distance between two curves changes that means that the amount of damage one mob can take compared to another changes, i.e. it is inconsistent. This is easy to spot when two curves crosses which means that first one mob is more durable, then the other.

 

As can be seen in the final plot the distance between curves is constant and the slope is the same for all curves. This means that the scaling is the same for all factions and mobs and that the amount of damage needed to kill one mob compared to another is constant. This is way way more easy to balance compared to what we currently have as you can scale the relative durability by changing base health/shield/armor (shift a curve up or down) independently of changing how fast things scale.

Or you could dial down Grineer base health (assuming sane armor scaling) to compensate. I want some variety in enemy. That's why we have Grineer for armor, Corpus for shields and Infested for sheer numbers, no?

 

(Also you forgot to account for everything else. Infested spawn like twice as many, and Corpus have literally two health bars. Each faction has its own unique advantage. Graph me that and we can start talking real balance)

 

Changing the system from level difference to plain current level I agree with, though. It's bizarre how Elite Lancers are more fragile than normal Lancers.

[RoboDoge]

How to fight Grineers? There are 2 ways for this.

 

A) you cry because you cant.

 

B) you cry even more because they have S#&$ton of armor.

[Raijinmeister]

Again some bad decisions made without enough test.

After the new patch i got my anti grineer stuf :explosion brakk with 2.394 dmg+my corrosive synapse 1.836 dmg and did an high lvl alert,grineers above lvl 65-71 and wow,was pathetic.

I was dealing between 3-12 with the brakk and 2-11 with the synapse,only when the explosion/corrosive dmg procced i got some regular numbers,like 100-350.I took forever to kill any heavies,even lancers seemed higly resistant to the dmg.

And i only got those numbers using my rhino roar.

This game simply is a waste of time,nice way to kill time if your main game is down for maintenance or something.

A bunch of idiots who never go past earth complaing about something and since they are the majority we whom spent hours and hours farming events and other stuff get our weapons #*($%%@.

No reason to bash our frames against high lvl targets,the @(*()$ armor scaling is stupid,the weapon nerfs are complety ridiculous and DE's don't @(*()$ stress-test anything,just get some numbers and go live and the players need to work around every time.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Raijinmeister

[Definitegj]

U11.5.1

 

The way puncture and corrosive work remain the same as 11.3.3. Grineer health is now known as [Cloned flesh], separated from Corpus's flesh.

 

Armor scaling has been lowered. This is what is found in game by Gogge. Btw his weapon calculator is real good, very helpful.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/118754-a-web-based-dps-tool/?p=1782591

 

 

Napalm, Bombard, Elite Lancer, Corrupted Lancer and Grineer Bosses has armor changed to Alloy armor. Heavy gunner remain ferrite armor.

Alloy armor supposed to be even tougher [Puncture +15% only, Cold +25%, Radiation =+75%, Corrosive no bonus, resistance to slash -50%]

 

So if you use Corrosive, beware of Napalm and Bombard, if you use radiation, beware of Heavy gunner, Trooper. If didn't use any, beware of having a hole through your monitor screen.

 

 

 

There are now 4 different types of infested health

- Infested - charger and leaper

- Infested Flesh - all crawlers, Runner

- Fossilized - Non-healing ancients

- Infested Sinew - aka Infested Armor (weak to puncture, cold, radiation, same as Alloy armor), Ancient Healers

 

Corpus Tech and Bosses has new shield type - [Proto Shield] aka Heavy shield, the rest uses normal shield.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Definitegj

[Sethonan]

just go ageinst vor on solo and try to come out of there

 

I think that is bugged, I can solo Vor just fine, but last week for some reason it spawned as alevel 42 mob and while the damage was fine, he had a literal TON of health to spare, it was a pickup group and we managed to bring his shields down, but i think the real problem is how fast THEIR damage scales.

[tehous]

Or you could dial down Grineer base health (assuming sane armor scaling) to compensate. I want some variety in enemy. That's why we have Grineer for armor, Corpus for shields and Infested for sheer numbers, no.

Dialing down grineer health would not solve the problem. It would make grineer weaker at lower levels which possibly could be even worse than what we currently have since it would affect a larger number of players.

 Unless you lower the exponent for armor scaling to 0, or change scaling for non-grineer factions the problem of grineer eventually scaling out of orbit, and possibly not scaling sufficiently at lower levels, would remain.

Armor would still serve to differentiate between mobs without scaling.

 

Why are you so dead set on having entirely different difficulty scaling of different factions?

 

(Also you forgot to account for everything else. Infested spawn like twice as many, and Corpus have literally two health bars. Each faction has its own unique advantage. Graph me that and we can start talking real balance)

No I didn't. Infested spawn rate is not something I have reliable numbers for and moreover is an entirely separate issue. You could approximate a doubled spawn rate by doubling health but that doesn't account for going Penta on a vortex of infested.

 

Corpus shields are accounted for in my graphs, effective health=health+shields.

 

 

Look, it's actually quite simple.

 

Infested: Health*Scaling

Corpus: (Health + Shields)*Scaling

Grineer: Health*Scaling + Health*Armor*Scaling*Scaling

 

The devs changed Grineer to: Health*Scaling + Health*Armor*Scaling*Not-as-much-Scaling

The problem will still remain, they have scaling to the power of more than one making them progressively grown stronger at higher levels compared to other factions.

 

There are two ways to fix it:

A: Remove armor scaling for grineer and get Health*Scaling + Health*Armor*Scaling, i.e. the same scaling as other factions

or 

B: Remove health scaling for grineer and get Health + Health*Armor*Scaling (~Health*Armor*Scaling for higher levels)

C: Change scaling for other factions i.e. 

Corpus: (Health+Shields)*Scaling*Scaling

Infested: Health*Scaling*Scaling

Grineer unchanged:  Health*Scaling + Health*Armor*Scaling*Scaling

C can simply be rewritten as;

Corpus: (Health+Shields)*New-Scaling

Infested: Health*New-Scaling

Grineer unchanged:  Health*New-Scaling/Scaling + Health*Armor*New-Scaling (~Health*Armor*New-Scaling at higher levels)

 

Changing the system from level difference to plain current level I agree with, though. It's bizarre how Elite Lancers are more fragile than normal Lancers.

And that a heavy gunner first is more fragile than a trooper, then as fragile, then less fragile.

 

There are two similar problems:

I. Mobs have different scaling depending on spawn level, this makes the relative difficulty of mobs with different spawn levels dependent on the current level.

II. Grineer have different scaling from corpus and infested, this makes the relative difficulty of grineer compared to corpus/infested dependent on the current level.

 

I. can easily be fixed by either changing the scaling of grineer, corpus+infested or all of them. Simply removing armor scaling is imo the easiest most elegant way to do it which is basically the same as fixing II. by making the scaling the same e.g. by removing the dependency on spawn level.

 

If I. is fixed, mobs can be balanced by changing base health/armor/shields and difficulty scaling can be tuned independently.

If II. is fixed, factions can be balanced by changing base health/armor/shields or spawn numbers.

Edited December 19, 2013 by tehous

[Kyte]

Doesn't matter because they lowered exponents across the board. Armor is now at 1.75. (It's almost like they listened to me ;_;)

Health and shields are now both with exponent 2.

[Redmage107]

Doesn't matter because they lowered exponents across the board. Armor is now at 1.75. (It's almost like they listened to me ;_;)

Health and shields are now both with exponent 2.

Pretty with this the thread's done in it's original intent at least.

[Vyra]

if you dropped a zero, the Lv50 Gunner would have 1000 armor which is well within the range where it's better than -DR (the inflection point's at 1450). That'd account for the health scaling as well.

 

Btw, here's for Toxin:

where do you get that charts?

[Kyte]

where do you get that charts?

An Excel file sitting in my hard drive.

[Definitegj]

Any effective health chart for current system?

[Raijinmeister]

OMF balls,now we have grineers vunerable to radiation and neutral for corrosive.

Really ?what a mess this freaking system.

This should work as Mass Effect,if you have armor,that it,no red/health bar,just a yellow bar and once the bar is gone your target is dead.

Now we have to deal with two types of armour AND hp resitances toowithim the same faction.

Gotta be kiddin me.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Raijinmeister

[fatpig84]

OMF balls,now we have grineers vunerable to radiation and neutral for corrosive.

Really ?what a mess this freaking system.

This should work as Mass Effect,if you have armor,that it,no red/health bar,just a yellow bar and once the bar is gone your target is dead.

Now we have to deal with two types of armour AND hp resitances toowithim the same faction.

Gotta be kiddin me.

 

 

Viral + Radiation friend.

Alloys are found mainly on the nasty stuff like Napalms.

[tehous]

Any effective health chart for current system?

I've swapped to relative effective health since effective health charts are somewhat messy and confusing currently.

 

Comparing the effective health of all mobs to the health of a leaper.

 

How many leapers does it take to get to the death of a? is another way to put it.

 

Grineer still have markedly different scaling than other factions

The crewman and the leaper start out at the same level and have the same scaling so they are just horizontal lines at 1 and 2.1, respectively. The trooper and lancer otoh have grineer scaling so will progressively grow more durable compared to the leaper/crewman.

 

Differing spawn levels still have a profound effect

Ancients spawn at lower levels so will initially start out at "2 leapers" for disruptors and healers, "1 leaper" for toxics. They will slowly approach the "4 leapers" their base stats would suggest.

[Definitegj]

I've swapped to relative effective health since effective health charts are somewhat messy and confusing currently.

 

Comparing the effective health of all mobs to the health of a leaper.

 

How many leapers does it take to get to the death of a? is another way to put it.

 

Grineer still have markedly different scaling than other factions

The crewman and the leaper start out at the same level and have the same scaling so they are just horizontal lines at 1 and 2.1, respectively. The trooper and lancer otoh have grineer scaling so will progressively grow more durable compared to the leaper/crewman.

 

Differing spawn levels still have a profound effect

Ancients spawn at lower levels so will initially start out at "2 leapers" for disruptors and healers, "1 leaper" for toxics. They will slowly approach the "4 leapers" their base stats would suggest.

 

Thanks.

Lol Napalm is the boss.  Btw, if I'm not wrong, there is no Lancer above level 20, so you can leave that out in future. Also Napalm according to wiki, minimum level is 6, Bombard minimum level is 4, unless they changed it this patch.

[konfetarius]

So... when's the second electric damage mod coming out?

I wanna be lazy and run Radiation/Corrosive on same weapon -_-

[Otaiken]

So... when's the second electric damage mod coming out? I wanna be lazy and run Radiation/Corrosive on same weapon -_-

 

You can do that with melee already.

[konfetarius]

In tune with the desire to be lazy, I want that second mod on guns.

[Definitegj]

You can't run Radiation with Corrosive even with second electric mod out. It will go to whatever element combo formed first.

[Redmage107]

 

Lol Napalm is the boss.  Btw, if I'm not wrong, there is no Lancer above level 20,

Alerts

[konfetarius]

Ruiner of dreams you are.

So Radiation + Viral really is king against Grineer. I found that killing Heavy Gunners with Radiation is a simpler affair than killing Bombards with Corrosive. Though maybe on a high proc weapon, Corrosive + Blast might work out due to reducing Bombard Armor? How does the math compare there if you shave clean 50% off Bombard Armor?

Corrosive + Blast is easily the dominating winner against Infested due to absolutely murdertroning Toxic/Disruptor Ancients and who cares about the rest. Healing Ancients annoying, but the damage penalty against Toxics/Disruptors when speccing to killing Healing Ancients is disproportionately higher.

Corpus seems the simplest affair then. Magnetic to destroy shields, and/or Toxic to flat out ignore them. I don't see how anything else would really compare.

Edited December 22, 2013 by konfetarius

[Kyte]

I think the base levels got changed. Let me see....

Ok, these all need confirmation, but it's a starting point.

Lv. 3: Commander, Flameblade,
Lv. 4: Bombard
Lv. 5: Disruptor Ancient, Powerfist, Shield Lancer
Lv. 6: Napalm
Lv. 7: Scorch
Lv. 8: Corrupted Heavy Gunner, Heavy Gunner, Desert Heavy Gunner, Frontier Heavy Gunner
Lv. 10: Mine Osprey, Vacuum Drone, Toxic Ancient, Scorpion, Elite Desert Lancer, Nauseous Crawler, Lobber Crawler, Electric Crawler, Toxic Crawler, Elite Frontier Lancer
Lv. 12: Roller
Lv. 15: Leech Osprey, Shockwave Moa, Fusion Moa, Elite Lancer, Frontier Regulator, Corpus Tech, Regulator, Sniper Crewman
Lv. 16: Elite Crewmen

If unlisted assume 1 or that I'm wrong. :V

 

Also, max levels:
Lv. 15: Butcher, Lancer, Frontier Butcher
Lv. 20: Corpus Crewmen
Lv. 21: Desert Lancer, Frontier Lancer

If unlisted assume no limit or that I'm wrong. :V

Edited December 22, 2013 by Kyte

[Definitegj]

Alerts

There is max level with Lancers, is not limited by mission levels.