"upcoming -Warframe- Changes" Are Ridiculous

[Wurdyburd]

When I heard that Saryn, among other frames, were getting a rework, I was excited, but concerned. After all, I remember what happened with Volt, who was slowly nerfed into obscurity until Damage 2.0 brought him back from the grave.
Everybody who sees the new "Upcoming Changes" threads is excited. Some think the changes are good.
This is why they are not.

Valkyr:

Hysteria (Fourth Power) - Now has life regain/regeneration as damage is being dealt to enemies.

For a melee-oriented warframe, Valkyr is decidedly unskilled when it comes to melee. Alongside intentionally removing her own shields in the midst of battle for the sake of a couple seconds of stun, her ultimate ability is as slow as she is, even slower when actually attacking, and even discourages speed and special attacks by making spin attacks do next to nothing, and a 100% knockdown ground attack is rewarded with a minimalistic damage output when doing finisher moves. As bad as these things are, Hysteria could be used to escape from combat, or to have a couple seconds of invicibility to res a teammate who had fallen in battle. Now, Valkyr is forced to do as much damage as possible, to avoid getting shot like a dog while using her most powerful ability.

Saryn:

Venom (First Power) - Now does viral damage.

Out of all of Saryn's powers, Contagion was one that desperately needed attention. It wasn't reasonable before D2.0, and it wasn't improved with the introduction of the new damage system. And yet, it's the ONE ability that didn't receive a lick of attention, positive or otherwise. Instead, Venom, an ability that when used right, was quite effective in a horde of Infestation, has been changed to Viral Damage, which is the only toxic-combo element type to have a PENALTY against infested. But at least it has a damage modifier against flesh! Which Toxic naturally had anyway, successfully decreasing the potential damage it can do, while increasing the amount of negative effect the power had. In short, DE just made it bad for no good reason.
Miasma (Fourth Power) - Damage increase and changed to corrosive damage type.
Damage increase AND changed to corrosive type?? You mean that same corrosive type that has +75% damage vs armour, and has no penalties? Yeah, that needed extra damage for sure.
Miasma, otherwise known as 'sneezing', was already powerful before D2.0; making toxic damage deal a total of +75% damage to Grineer [spread across armour and flesh] just made it even better. But now, it'll still deal that much damage to grineer; just not as much to Corpus. Sure it got rid of the -25% vs robotics, but that means that it won't deal that extra +50% against corpus crewmen et. variants that it used to. Good job DE. Took a good thing and made it worse again. How are these supposed to be buffs from your acclaimed 'Galatine of Buffing' again?

Ember:
Accelerant (New Second Power - was Overheat) - Accelerant affects all enemies in a radius to have knockback + it coats them in fire damage amplifier!

...Excuse me?
So now Overheat, which granted huge defense, which was changed to grant mediocre offence, has been outed completely in exchange for an ability, which if you don't have a weapon with fire damage on it, makes you need to use MORE powers to make full use of it? What's the point of that? That's like Rhino needing to use Rhino Roar before he can use Rhino Charge.

 

All of Ember's new 100% proc

If any of these three girls needed guaranteed proc, it was Saryn. You know, the frame that relies on DoT poison damage to be most useful? Not Ember, who's World on Fire pretty much obliterates infested as soon as they come into range? What are they going to do, burn into negative damage numbers after they've been killed in one eruption? 

In fact, out of all the proc-type frames, Saryn was the ONLY one who could benefit the most, both in terms of damage and in terms of general logic of poison dealing damage over time.
That said, Ember was never used to deal damage over time, aside from Fire Blast, which was used for defensive purposes, and not for offensive. That's what World on Fire was for, and that deals enough damage per hit to kill most enemies, without having an additional fire counter on them.


Many of these points may become meaningless depending on how damage changes in Update 11.4, but without that knowledge, I can confidently say that DE is making a ton of mistakes, and that 'Galatine of Buffing' is looking mighty hammer-ish right about now.

[Tulzscha]

Moved to the proper section.

[Porn]

Ridiculously great!

[zzang]

Out of all of Saryn's powers, Contagion was one that desperately needed attention. It wasn't reasonable before D2.0, and it wasn't improved with the introduction of the new damage system. And yet, it's the ONE ability that didn't receive a lick of attention, positive or otherwise.

i wanted to open a trade to express this aswell but you was first!

 

agreed on what you said and i think in the upcoming melee overwork that saryns contagion should get at VERY LEAST knockdown/manadrain//CC immune

and maybe life leech based on melee damage. Could also revive her from the grave that she was sent in bit by bit.

 

And agreed on hysteria the damage still will be bad in higher levels against armored targets i think that always was the core problem she have almost zero team utility and for killing (multiple) enemies in melee she just not have the right or strong enough tools.

Edited December 18, 2013 by zzang

[xRufus7x]

This may be a crazy idea, but why don't we try playing with the changes before we decide they are a complete failure.

[RibbonRobbin]

I would say hammerish is a bit is too dramatic, moreso it is a cronus of buffing. I still welcome it, but I do agree on Saryn and her need to proc.

[Hallowieners]

Have you ever used Saryn after damage 2.0? Her toxic was affected by Grineer armor, infested were resistant to them as well. And Corpus crewmen are probably the easiest enemy types to kill. Hell, the new change is for the better, especially now that it has a chance to proc viral, reducing health by HALF.

Miasma did worthless damage on higher leveled enemies, corrosive makes it useful on Grineer, and without penalty on other factions. As for contagion, I might have to wait until melee 2.0 to see how that plays out. 

 

Ember's new overheat actually makes her offensive now, you should wait to see by how much fire damage is amplified before you say anything. 

[BrainInvader]

Only venom is a weird change, the others look interesting/good.

I understand you didn't get what you want, but the changes don't seem to be a bad thing and are improving those warframes.

[Rehero]

I am not quite sure how one can judge the state of the changes before actually seeing them. Like take the Accelerant for example, we know nothing about how it works not to mention what its numbers are, so how do you know it is mediocre?

 

While I am not against critiquing changes in the least I don't think we have the information to make constructive feedback without looking like complete tools due to assumptions of mechanics we don't know yet.

[Kamentari]

I'm sad they neglected Contagion, as a Saryn main player I never found a good use to it - neither I use Molt.

And I don't think Miasma needed more damage, it was great nuker already.

 

However I'll refrain from judging more until I see the changes.

For now I'll keep formaing my Loki

Edited December 18, 2013 by Blekarotva

[Seanjuju]

I'm happy that DE is letting players know ahead of time. Very appreciated by many players.

[Renan.Ruivo]

<snip>

 

Wait for the update to go live before saying that the changes are ridiculous.

[VentiGlondi]

Why am I the only one who thinks accelerant is supposed to give you bonus fire damage the way electric shields grants bonus electric damage.

[NetSlayer]

I think these are awesome.

For one Ember needed them procs.

 

Hysteria may come with an anim change... but that health vamp makes her super cool.

 

Saryn utilising more than just poison...very welcome.

[FableTale]

This may be a crazy idea, but why don't we try playing with the changes before we decide they are a complete failure.

You should be ashamed! Making a level-headed post on warframe boards! BE ANGRY LIKE EVERYONE ELSE!

 

(to avoid problems I'm saying this is sarcasm right now)

[Seanjuju]

Accelerant is pretty much rhino roar but limited to powers and ignis. It doesn't sound bad at all.

[DarknightK]

I'm sad that Hysteria didn't get a much needed change to its damage, besides the normal attack, so that's on the list to be changed later on.

Also, like OP said I'm furious Contagion didn't get any attention, Focus on the stuff that we've been talking about DE!

Can't argue with Saryn's other changes, they're pretty well reasoned.

[Renan.Ruivo]

I'm sad that Hysteria didn't get a much needed change to its damage, besides the normal attack, so that's on the list to be changed later on.

Also, like OP said I'm furious Contagion didn't get any attention, Focus on the stuff that we've been talking about DE!

Can't argue with Saryn's other changes, they're pretty well reasoned.

 

Well, the fact that there are feedback threads that were created by DE goes to show that they are quite open to further changing these frames, Baby steps.

[Carkis]

I'm sad they neglected Contagion, as a Saryn main player I never found a good use to it - neither I use Molt.

And I don't think Miasma needed more damage, it was great nuker already.

 

However I'll refrain from judging more until I see the changes.

For now I'll keep formaing my Loki

 

Molt is the greatest thing ever with the newly-released Penta.  Cast while reloading, set them up the bomb.  I'm glad it's getting a health buff, because it needed it.  However, it did not bother me much since I now use Fleeting Expertise for frequent and brief distractions instead of need it to tank (since they're gonna get 'sploded quickly anyway).

[zzang]

Molt is the greatest thing ever with the newly-released Penta.  Cast while reloading, set them up the bomb.  I'm glad it's getting a health buff, because it needed it.  However, it did not bother me much since I now use Fleeting Expertise for frequent and brief distractions instead of need it to tank (since they're gonna get 'sploded quickly anyway).

my personal opinion about molt is that i rather would see it as a temporary damage shield maybe not as strong as iron skin or a kind of piniata bomb when enemies kill molt it explodes aoe for corrosive damage and enemies get poison tumors (like from venom).

Edited December 18, 2013 by zzang

[Deathshroud09]

From a logical perspective the Saryn changes make no sense. Miasma, a word generally synonymous with sickness, should have been made in to Viral damage, but gotten a straight-up numerical damage buff, this would make it a nice shield-ignoring AOE ability. Venom, again from a logical perspective, should be toxin damage, and just needed a good buff.

[xRufus7x]

Let's not forget that there is a melee overhaul in the pipeline. This will most likely have an impact on melee centered powers such as Hysteria and Contagion

[Kynian]

I don't mean to offend, but honestly you said a lot, and I mean A LOT of cr4p in the OP, as far as design goes. Here's why:

 

Valkyr:

Hysteria (Fourth Power) - Now has life regain/regeneration as damage is being dealt to enemies.

For a melee-oriented... [snip] ...using her most powerful ability.

I trust you know what a BERSERKER is, right? That is what she is supposed to be, and these changes reflect on the way she should be used. All your whining about she NEEDING to hit is pointless because that is EXACTLY what she was supposed to do. Berserkers primary role isn't to rez, heal or support, it's to HIT STUFF.

 

Saryn:

Venom (First Power) - Now does viral damage.

Out of all of Saryn's powers, Contagion was one that desperately needed attention. It wasn't reasonable before D2.0, and it wasn't improved... [snip]...while increasing the amount of negative effect the power had. In short, DE just made it bad for no good reason.

I partially agree with you. I personally think damage should be toxic, not viral. After all, irl venom is indeed a toxin and not a virus. That said, other than that, all that you said is hogwash. The ability is not not the best against infested, but is good against all non-infested. So it changed it's preferred target (previously infested) to other enemies, and you don't like it as it is not your preference. And that is hogwash. Adapt to the game, don't expect the game to adapt to your preferences.

 

Saryn:

Miasma (Fourth Power) - Damage increase and changed to corrosive damage type.

Damage increase AND changed to corrosive type?? You mean that same corrosive type that has +75% damage vs armour...[snip]...Took a good thing and made it worse again. How are these supposed to be buffs from your acclaimed 'Galatine of Buffing' again?

Again, this goes into developer intended feel for a character and kit synergy (same thing below on ember, scroll down for details). Isn't the ingame Miasma a blastwave of acid? (to remain faithful to the word it should be something akin to a fog of sickness inducing substance/viral damage, but on Saryn's kit, isn't it blastwave of acid)? Isn't acid corrosive? If you answered yes to the two previous questions than you now know it makes sense to change damage type to corrosive. Congratulations! As for the damage increase, I believe it was to make give an extra "oomph" against factions OTHER than Grineer. After all, this is an uber, and it is SUPPOSED to be powerful. It just so happens that it is now MORE powerful on Grineer.

 

Ember:

Accelerant (New Second Power - was Overheat) - Accelerant affects all enemies in a radius to have knockback + it coats them in fire damage amplifier!

...Excuse me?

So now Overheat, which granted huge defense, which was changed to grant mediocre offence, has been outed completely in exchange for an ability, which if you don't have a weapon with fire damage on it, makes you need to use MORE powers to make full use of it? What's the point of that? That's like Rhino needing to use Rhino Roar before he can use Rhino Charge.

Ok, get this - character synergy. Learn these two words. Now see if you follow this line of though: Ember is an ELEMENTAL character (fire). She is supposed to have synergy with fire. She using any weapon should be good, but she using fire weapons should be OPTIMAL. Ember also seems to have been made with damage output in mind. That means she should NOT be able to tank at all, in fact she should be quite fragile (glass cannon concept). So taking out damage reduction on her completely is a GOOD thing, design-wise. I do agree it wasn't compeltely necessary, as self-cast abilities meant to improve one's defense (akin to a mage's magical armor) is perfectly ok. However she was soaking up WAY more damage than she was supposed to, and thus, warranted for the ability change.

 

All of Ember's new 100% proc

If any of these three girls needed guaranteed proc, it was Saryn. You know, the frame that relies on DoT poison damage to be most useful? Not Ember, who's World on Fire pretty much obliterates... [snip] ...for, and that deals enough damage per hit to kill most enemies, without having an additional fire counter on them.

I partly agree with you. However, this last part seems more like a simple silly rant more than anything meant to serve as proper feedback. I partly agree that Saryn's proc should be 100% or something really close to that. I also agree that Ember was never used as a DoT frame. However, and let's be honest here, neither was Saryn. Saryn would go to the center of a room, pop miasma, see everything corrode and proceed to the next room to the same thing, all the while laughing and yawning. I like the changes to Ember because she retains her place as a "burst-damage" character, while keeping some properties of fire element. If you play league of legends, I'm talking a design like the character Brand from that game. He's burst, but he does have a ticking DoT on his fire attacks - and it makes sense, after all the target is ablaze.

At the same time, and still talking about other game character, I'll bring Cassiopeia up, also from league of legends, to compare it to Saryn. Cassiopeia is a mix of DoT and burst, wich I believe is what DE was aiming for with Saryn (Burst uber, DoT skills). However, Saryn does need adjustments. I'd say bump up poison duration on enemies (and thus the damage, as it's ticking over time) and the proc rate of her abilities (100% or close to it seems fair to me, if you did that to Ember).

 

Many of these points may become meaningless depending on how damage changes in Update 11.4, but without that knowledge, I can confidently say that DE is making a ton of mistakes, and that 'Galatine of Buffing' is looking mighty hammer-ish right about now.

I can confidently say you don't know much about design, but your intentions are good. You probably also like Saryn a lot and probably mains her, and sees any changes to her as a nerf or something bad when they, in reality, are not.

Next time, instead of just writing an angry rant, do try to cool your head and look at the big picture with a more neutral vision.

Hopefully you'll agree with me.

PS: All I wrote are based on my own personal opinion, as I can not speak for DE's true intentions at all.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Kynian

[DeejayPwny]

I don't see how the Valkyr change wasn't a good one. Adding health regen as you fight will be extremely useful. Sure, the move set and it's damage could use an improvement, but that doesn't make the change already going in bad.

[Ishki88]

Ever thought naybe.............all 3 femme's got more buffs than what was listed?

 

You know they tend to leave out some things.............

 

I feel your pain bro trust me....but just wait a while...........

 

This is coming from someone who made a troll topic about nerfing Penta (got a slap on the hand for it)

 

P.S.

 

Ogris Master Race still >

Edited December 18, 2013 by Ishki88