Snoreframe. Bored To Tears. Why?

[Sophronius]

I'm currently quite bored in general. So I decided to write up this random thing that will mostly go unnoticed, which is sad because it's actually interesting. I know, it's not well organized and mostly train of thought. If you would like to expand this idea or write a better version then please do. I do not feel like spending a large amount of time creating a proper article for something I feel will not make a difference regardless of it's structure.

 

 

 

 

 

TL;DR   How do I put this... Warframe becomes boring because it lacks in having anything to sustain entertainment value, unlike other famous titles mentioned here. Maybe we should change that. How? Just look at the last 2 small paragraphs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Warframe, I can describe it like this:

 

Great universe.
Extreme lack of lore, and it seems that lore is being rewritten from how it vaguely began

Fair combat mechanics.

Ranges from very difficult to super easy.

Boils down to a content grind.

Once you have everything you might as well move to another game.

 

 

Why is this?

Warframe lacks in having anything to drive players. In essence, it is nothing more than a grindfest. The same missions a thousand times, to unlock, level, farm, and attain new content.

 

Why do many players end up doing nothing but defense missions primarily?

 

I'll give you a hint: It's not because of grinding. It's the challenge.

 

 

This is where we begin to get somewhere with redeeming quality. Players find a game engaging because of challenge, among other things. Whereas many will grind away several hours, this does not mean that they find the experience enjoyable and worth playing again. It's more about the obsession with getting the next best thing, more or less.

 

Warframe needs to stop this and evolve. How? Let's look at some popular titles to see why they are so successful.

 

 

 

I'm going to do a very brief and broad analysis of why these titles can be fun to play and keep you coming back for more.

 

Hate 'em or Love 'em, here they are:

 

Call of Duty:

 

How satisfying is it to acquire a kill? Think about how much the devs put in to making it feel so good to get a kill. Each hit makes a distinct sound, the crosshair lights up and (at least in classic CoD) huge numbers explode on the screen. You also get kill streaks to make it all the more fun. The thrill of the kill is what it is. How angry does one get when they can't get a kill and always die? That's because the value in playing lies in killing. It becomes an addictive thing, and therefore you have people constantly sprinting around the map because they must get their next high from another enemy kill.

 

 

LoL or MOBA in general:

 

Like other competitive titles this one keeps you busy through challenge. Battlefield generally falls under this same type.

 

First, there is an array of characters to use which mostly have a very different playing style which can make or break a team fight. This adds replay value alone. However the more important factor is the challenge you receive from other players. With each match you could find yourself adapting/changing tactics against your enemies. You will be continually on your toes. Intelligent reaction to your play style will keep things interesting as most of the time players will not fall for the same exact thing twice.

 

The same could be said of Battlefield. If you can't get to that annoying sniper killing you on foot, then kill him with a helicopter. Being challenged to take a different approach and being rewarded from it is very enjoyable and makes you want to do it again.

 

 

Dark Souls:

 

This can very well be the definition of challenge. Die and try again, many times. This game can be incredibly difficult. However it is not necessarily punishing. Each time you die, it is quite likely that you made a mistake. There is always a way around your enemies. This game keeps players entertained because they are persistently pushed to their limits, but never given a completely impossible or outrageously insane obstacle. It also obeys all it's own rules, and does not use "Space magic" or "God characters" to cheatingly defeat you. (I'm talking about you Stalker) You don't blindly run in and whack something. (Warframe) You consider what you did wrong and what you could do to change the outcome. Once you have it figured out it feels so goooood to get passed whatever it was standing in your way.

 

 

Mass Effect (all of them):

 

This one is...well.. all right. The primary driving element here in replay ability would simply be how many different ways that you can effect the story. Maybe a player would want to go back and change their decision. It doesn't yield the best replay value but it's definitely something.

 

 

 

 

What can we do with Warframe?

 

Honestly... not sure. It depends on how willing DE is to creating something worth while a year down the road. Or if they are still set on this whole "content is the life force of F2P." Sure, content absolutely drives money flow in F2P. But, it also technically cheats your player base left by itself. Seriously, the same old thing over and over just to grind for some new item is stupid. People deserve better than this for giving millions on this title.

 

Before you think it, why would you ever use items and 'frames without mods just for a challenge? This is counter-productive. It is also a very, very sad way to excuse the lack of real challenge in the later game / endgame.

 

 

In order to achieve better replay value, Warframe's foundation may need to be... modified or added on to. (No, not completely changed... gee, that's stupid this late in development.)

 

How?

 

Well, it would be nice if gameplay weren't basically...walk in to a room...use zero cover...kill everything in a matter of seconds... get another hoard of enemies thrown at you... kill them in seconds...repeat. Warframe reminds me of a hack 'n slash, except with guns. The sad thing is that it's just not fulfilling.

 

The combination of Warframe powers, enemy types and weapons is what causes this problem. Warframe is only challenging to someone who is starting out.

 

 

 

(Last 2 small paragraphs here)

 

 

To be honest, in Warframe's current state...for me to think of a great and innovative way to make it more challenging and fun; to have more replay value and be engaging would require a lot of thinking...a lot. More than I am willing to think about. Unless I worked for DE that is, but I don't. Nor am I interested to. I'm not interested in working for game development.

 

So what I think DE should do is to just consider putting down the content for a moment and find a way to expand the gameplay. The new creative approach to bosses is a nice direction, but still feels lacking. Perhaps adding more depth would be a nice approach. I wouldn't normally do this but for players to better understand what I mean by all this challenge and difficulty making Warframe more worth your time have a look at these links. Cartoony yes, however these guys know what they are talking about.

 

Challenge/Depth: http://tinyurl.com/l9qyg92

Making Difficulty Fun: http://tinyurl.com/kdb7y3t

 

Whatever happens, I hope for the best.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Sophronius

[sedu13]

I think the best way to put this might be a bit harsh, but...Warframe is a souless game. The basic premise of a game, in that you play it simply because it's rewarding. I should want to play because I like the content, the enemies, the gameplay, the challenge that comes with it.

 

Take ME3 as an example. Even on it's demo, the MP felt fresh, varied and balanced. It had maybe 5 enemies, but each unit was unique, challenging. It kept you in the game. Warframe has a huge number of enemies, but they are mostly "Dude with a gun. Oh, and he punches the ground" that you kill the same way as you move to the extraction, thinking only of the next run you'll do and getting your stuff to rank 30 so you can ditch it for a new batch.

 

See how terrible that is? I don't use most weapons DE has put in the game because they are cool. I use them for mastery, mostly because it's the same gun with lower numbers than the next one. This has to change.

[Sophronius]

Solid points. I modified the post to add 2 links in which someone else explains further about challenge and what it can do because I don't want to create another article about it. Depth might be the starting direction Warframe needs. What do I mean? Look at the 2 links in the modified OP.

[iamstillwater]

Solid points. I modified the post to add 2 links in which someone else explains further about challenge and what it can do because I don't want to create another article about it. Depth might be the starting direction Warframe needs. What do I mean? Look at the 2 links in the modified OP.

 

Respectfully speaking, I can see where your points are fair, but the title of this thread is not particularly kind, and may not be very conducive to civil discussion. 

 

I'll explain where I'm coming from later on, as I'm going to do some work for a bit, but trust me when I say I understand where you're coming from, but at the same time, I always manage to find some immense joy from playing this game as well.

[matto]

+1, I really like what you're saying here.

 

For me, the most important point atm is the lack of rewards and the relation between risk/reward. Survival or Endless defenses, supposed to be more endgame oriented, are just a big finger in our face everytime we try to push ourselves.

 

Check here my threads if interested :

Orokin Derelict Survival Reward Table

Asking DE to rethink the Risk/Reward system

Asking DE to disclose the reward tables

Edited December 21, 2013 by matto

[Crewell]

I stopped playing actively right after update 9. I pop on the game now and then still to just break monotony from other games. The problem like you said is how long can you persevere with repetitive grinding.

 

For me I, I was basically at nothing but weapon grinds at the time. Frost Prime was the new warframe and I had just about finished him up. I still had half way to go on Vauban, but I had every other frame at 30. My mastery rank was 7. Grinding weapons is not as exciting as grinding frames to me, so I basically stopped being an active player. I have popped back in as I said, but I'm still not sure I see anything to bring me back full force. Sure there are about 6 new frames I could level, but at the end of the day there is still something missing. The events are a little better, and some of the new models looks great. I guess for me it stopped feeling like I was achieving something in the game. That's the feeling that has kept me long term in most games.

 

That being the case I still play about 4 hours a month here and there just to do something different.

[Sophronius]

Respectfully speaking, I can see where your points are fair, but the title of this thread is not particularly kind, and may not be very conducive to civil discussion. 

 

I'll explain where I'm coming from later on, as I'm going to do some work for a bit, but trust me when I say I understand where you're coming from, but at the same time, I always manage to find some immense joy from playing this game as well.

That may be true, I wish I could change it.

However on the other hand, it grabs attention more with a title such as that. Otherwise, many may easily overlook it. Or perhaps having such a title would drive people away from looking at it, I don't know. Just kind of a spur of the moment title I suppose.

 

 

I find that I come back to Warframe often because of the universe. It's a fascinatingly different game, much like the first Bioshock. That was quite the universe. But sadly, Warframe lacks in almost every other department of gaming.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Sophronius

[AluvianSprinter]

I'd like to point out for the examples you used, CoD/LoL/MOBAs get their replayability from the fact that it's PvP not PvE. It's based on the underlying desire to best your opponents so that they know you are better than they are (which is also why trashtalking is so common). You feel good about getting kills in CoD because it puts you one point closer to victory and the other guy knows it while he has to wait to respawn so he can try to get you back. In League it's about having superior teamwork and winning teamfights because you were positioned better. In these games there is a clear "I outplayed the enemy which put me even more ahead of them" feeling that you don't get from a PvE game. When you find some random Grineer Lancer and shoot them in the head there's no feeling of "he's so sorry he poked out from cover", you don't feel dominant over the AI. Not nearly to the extent that you would if it were an enemy Tenno in the Conclaves. This is why these games have more (different) replayability.

 

Dark Souls:

 

Each time you die, it is quite likely that you made a mistake. There is always a way around your enemies. This game keeps players entertained because they are persistently pushed to their limits, but never given a completely impossible or outrageously insane obstacle. It also obeys all it's own rules, and does not use "Space magic" or "God characters" to cheatingly defeat you. (I'm talking about you Stalker)

I'm sorry, first-boss-says-what? I can't really say much here since I've only played this game for around an hour at a friend's house. I will say though that the game itself is based on its difficulty. What makes it so different from nearly any other game is that it has a very strict set of rules and it forces you to learn them because if you don't then you lose. This game is made for a certain subset of people, and everyone else ragequits because they can't deal with the difficulty. Warframe is made (at least now) for a much broader audience by not building itself off of difficulty. If they were to try to shift towards this style of game it would be quite disastrous. The current line of thinking by the DEvs for "make it harder" appears to be "add a couple zeroes to it's health 'n' damage, and add some invincibility states. That'll do it." which is not how Dark Souls does it. Dark Souls does it by challenging the players' technical skill which quite honestly, most players don't have (myself included).

 

What makes the new content produced by the DEvs less exciting than new content in other games is the fact that it's so similar to the content we already have (e.g. we mostly get new weapons which boil down to the same thing). Sure a fancy new gun is cool and all, but you've gotten dozens of new guns before and they all did generally the same thing. It's getting new content that isn't like what we've had before that freshens up the game more (for instance this jungle event). The problem for DE is that it's hard to come up with new content that isn't like what we've had before that fits into their game and is still intriguing to us as players.

[f3llyn]

I agree with the OP completely. I feel that if DE wants to make some more in depth end game they could focus on endless defense and flesh that out. Look at tower defense games for some ways they could improve it. Having to collect resources so we can building traps and defenses as the defense missions progresses. I think that would add a lot to the game mode.

[Sophronius]

I'd like to point out for the examples you used, CoD/LoL/MOBAs get their replayability from the fact that it's PvP not PvE. It's based on the underlying desire to best your opponents so that they know you are better than they are (which is also why trashtalking is so common). You feel good about getting kills in CoD because it puts you one point closer to victory and the other guy knows it while he has to wait to respawn so he can try to get you back. In League it's about having superior teamwork and winning teamfights because you were positioned better. In these games there is a clear "I outplayed the enemy which put me even more ahead of them" feeling that you don't get from a PvE game. When you find some random Grineer Lancer and shoot them in the head there's no feeling of "he's so sorry he poked out from cover", you don't feel dominant over the AI. Not nearly to the extent that you would if it were an enemy Tenno in the Conclaves. This is why these games have more (different) replayability.

 

I'm sorry, first-boss-says-what? I can't really say much here since I've only played this game for around an hour at a friend's house. I will say though that the game itself is based on its difficulty. What makes it so different from nearly any other game is that it has a very strict set of rules and it forces you to learn them because if you don't then you lose. This game is made for a certain subset of people, and everyone else ragequits because they can't deal with the difficulty. Warframe is made (at least now) for a much broader audience by not building itself off of difficulty. If they were to try to shift towards this style of game it would be quite disastrous. The current line of thinking by the DEvs for "make it harder" appears to be "add a couple zeroes to it's health 'n' damage, and add some invincibility states. That'll do it." which is not how Dark Souls does it. Dark Souls does it by challenging the players' technical skill which quite honestly, most players don't have (myself included).

 

What makes the new content produced by the DEvs less exciting than new content in other games is the fact that it's so similar to the content we already have (e.g. we mostly get new weapons which boil down to the same thing). Sure a fancy new gun is cool and all, but you've gotten dozens of new guns before and they all did generally the same thing. It's getting new content that isn't like what we've had before that freshens up the game more (for instance this jungle event). The problem for DE is that it's hard to come up with new content that isn't like what we've had before that fits into their game and is still intriguing to us as players.

I attempted to cover a broader genre of games, however most games are PvP oriented. So CoD and the like are hard to avoid.

Dark Souls was my PvE like comparison. Yes it is very hard, harder than most people would like. However that is why for Warframe you create missions with varying difficulty. Kind of like the Void Tower 3 Defense. Sadly though to complete a Void T3 Defense requires an exact strategy. Super high DPS and Frost. This is so stupid...I cannot even laugh at it.

But the T3 Void Defense is my example still. Warframe could have those really hard challenging mission types, then more scaled down mission types. It would depend on what you choose I suppose.

 

The biggest problem, all that aside, Warframe has no depth.

[FlyDungas]

You bring up some good points, but your assessment of Call of Duty is quite frankly disturbing to me. Its pretty much the same thing, overstimulating specific pathways in your brain to create a feeling you crave and want more and more of. Draws you in with loud noises and flashes and big numbers but is literally the same thing over and over and over. In the newer versions variety is pretty much dead too since SMG w/laser sight > everything.

 

I feel like the whole rewards thing in games has gone too far. Yeah, scientifically that is why games are fun, but when Devs blatantly try to use this to manipulate you into playing the game I feel like it turns schemey and feels less like art. Like every time I decide to give GW2 another try, I log in and am showered with legendary items and what not, just for logging in on some day. Almost every post I see over there is rewards rewards rewards. It makes me feel like some kind of a drone, idk its creepy. Is that really all players are? Rats who need an endless supply of cheese? I really would hate to see this game become any more like CoD, but the Dark Souls part gets me all hot because the best time I've had in this game is when it was properly challenging, not when enemies took stupid long to kill. As far as I can tell they seem to be heading in that direction tho

[Sophronius]

You bring up some good points, but your assessment of Call of Duty is quite frankly disturbing to me. Its pretty much the same thing, overstimulating specific pathways in your brain to create a feeling you crave and want more and more of. Draws you in with loud noises and flashes and big numbers but is literally the same thing over and over and over. In the newer versions variety is pretty much dead too since SMG w/laser sight > everything.

 

I feel like the whole rewards thing in games has gone too far. Yeah, scientifically that is why games are fun, but when Devs blatantly try to use this to manipulate you into playing the game I feel like it turns schemey and feels less like art. Like every time I decide to give GW2 another try, I log in and am showered with legendary items and what not, just for logging in on some day. Almost every post I see over there is rewards rewards rewards. It makes me feel like some kind of a drone, idk its creepy. Is that really all players are? Rats who need an endless supply of cheese? I really would hate to see this game become any more like CoD, but the Dark Souls part gets me all hot because the best time I've had in this game is when it was properly challenging, not when enemies took stupid long to kill. As far as I can tell they seem to be heading in that direction tho

I honestly haven't played a CoD title since Black Ops 1. I got sick of it. My friend kept trying to make me play the latest one but I couldn't stand it anymore. However in the older CoD titles there seemed to be a lot of emphasis on kills in the way that I described.

 

I don't want to see Warframe become anything like CoD. I was only saying why the game was successful, it was one of several ways that developers have made players keep coming back for more.

[MDRLOz]

All it's lacking is endgame.

This is something the devs being up in live streams but end up giving us tile sets, frames and weapons.

The survival rework was great and gave an alternative to defence. However the rest of the reworks are taking a while. I feel this event is maybe testing out the new sabotage gameplay modes functions however.

What we also need is a new game mode on bosses. When you click a nightmare node now it gives you a pop up to do the game on normal or nightmare. Boss nodes need an option to do it on "heroic" mode. Then they can power up the bosses to high level and put some big challenge in the game. You could even have several levels of difficulty. Also the normal version is still there so this allows a simple boss to exist for general play.

[FlyDungas]

I see you already replied, I must say that I just woke up and that post did not come out the way I wanted it to lol, but also since you stopped at black ops 1 mostly anything I have to say about CoD is irrelevant anyway because that's when it started going bad IMO. But Black Ops 1 actually did do (also Gears of War 2 horde mode which I adore) something I think Warframe could build on. In the zombies mode, as you go farther you fight harder monsters not just in health but actually new and harder enemies. I think that rather than bloating the dmg/health of enemies to ridiculous levels, it would be better to add special creatures specifically designed for high level/challenging content so that difficulty actually revolves around gameplay/skill and not how well you pimp out your gear numbers wise.

[CatScratch]

No game is meant to be played forever, when you're done with the game you move on...

If your nostalgic later, come back in a year or so, see what's changed.  

[Felandi]

You bring up several honest points and describe the game in a very fair way. It is clearly that you have enjoyed the time you have spent so far before boredom struck you. So to this, kudos and thanks for a civil post.

 

However, the title of this thread does NOT reflect the content of your post and I find it offensive. My feelings do not matter in the grand scheme, but it is still a nasty way to try and stir up replies.

[neKroMancer]

It's the problem that lies beneath cooperative game with no competition between players. You don't actively compete with other players, you don't play for the actual adrenaline rush that piling upon you kill after kill. The actual concept of the genre, ARPG, is to climb a ladder to acquire more power and more varieties to handle situations.

Best comparison would be Diablo in single player or coop. You play each map to get new map, new equipment, and earn new level to unlock new ability. Once you finish normal then it's time to move to nightmare to get even more powerful gears and face more powerful enemies. Without active competition of PvP, the game itself can be done in 30-40 hours or 100+ hours depends on player's dedication.

I think it's a limitation of the genre in general. Players who play Warframe tends to find non-competitive element of the game a big advantage over other PvP games. The game also draws a wide range of players - ramping up difficulty to Dark Soul or turning portion of the game to be Rouge-like isn't an option unless DE wants to create a game tailored to very specific audience.

Personally, I think the current damage model can be a bit more simplistic, boss a little more varied in term of mechanic, Warframe/weapon a bit less dependent of mods, weapons could have a wider varieties in term of rarity and acquisition. Borderlands 1-2 are superb examples to learn from.