Trinity's Energy Vampire: Make Power Duration Shorten Energy Vampire

[0xCAFE]

So here's how a max Energy Vampire currently works: Trinity slaps it on some guy and it restores 100 energy over 9 seconds to Trinity and nearby friends.

 

With max Continuity, those 9 seconds becomes 11.7 seconds: 9*(1+.3) = 11.7

 

Now Trinity and co need to sit near the debuffed enemy for 11.7 seconds for the full effect of Energy Vampire.

 

My suggestion is to invert the relationship (similar to how Oberon's Renewal is inversely related to power duration modifiers). So max Continuity would reduce Energy Vampire's duration to ~6.9 seconds:

 

9/(1+.3) ~= 6.923

 

This would make it so Trinity and co only need to hang around the Energy Vampired guy for ~6.9 seconds.

[Archistopheles]

Or just make the pulses consistant regardless of the ability's duration...

[Alighierian]

or just revert how the actual energy gain worked to how it did before: you hit it, you get energy, like a blue energy piñata

[Varzy]

Make it so there are certain ticks per second and extending the time creates more ticks.

[tris1]

or use fleeting expertise same amount of energy just faster ticks but will cost you the duration of the other abilities

[Archwizard]

I'd definitely love to see the effects of bonus Duration on Energy Vampire and Oberon's Renewal switched. Quick energy/damage and constant healing with a reduction to downtime, instantly solves both of their problems.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Archwizard

[PsycloneM]

or use fleeting expertise same amount of energy just faster ticks but will cost you the duration of the other abilities

 

This is exactly the problem I have with the new Miasma. I can understand corrupted mods reducing the effectiveness of a particular power stat while increasing the effectiveness of another. However, mods with no inherent penalties like Continuity and Constitution should not penalize the player for wanting to increase power duration-- in Trinity's case, a lower energy regeneration rate.

 

An Energy Vampire with constant energy regeneration (Archistopheles's suggestion), or the current Energy Vampire with its base duration divided by ( 1 + power duration % increase) (OP's suggestion) would be better alternatives in my opinion.

 

 

Current Energy Vampire (Continuity, Constitution, and Aura):

9 x ( 1 + 0.3 + 0.28 + 0.25 ) = 16.47    ----> duration of 16.47 seconds

16.47 / 4 = 4.12    ----> pulse period of 4.12 seconds, regeneration rate of 6.07 energy/sec, 100 energy restored

 

Constant energy, inverse relationship (Continuity, Constitution, and Aura):

9 / ( 1 + 0.3 + 0.28 + 0.25 ) = 4.92    ----> duration of 4.92 seconds

4.92 / 4 = 1.23    ----> pulse period of 1.23 seconds, regeneration rate of 20.33 energy/sec, 100 energy restored

 

Constant energy regeneration (Continuity, Constitution, and Aura):

9 / 4 = 2.25    ----> pulse period of 2.25 seconds, regeneration rate of 11.11 energy/sec

9 x ( 1 + 0.3 + 0.28 + 0.25 ) = 16.47    ----> duration of 16.47 seconds, 208 energy restored (reduced energy tick at t = 16.47 s).

 

 

Energy Vampire has a base duration of 5/6/7/9 seconds. It would be more intuitive if the base duration decreased with rank for the OP's suggestion. For example, Energy Vampire could have a base duration of 16/14/12/9 seconds. Otherwise with Archistopheles's suggestion, the base duration should increase with rank.

Edited January 5, 2014 by PsycloneM

[Leuca]

The problem with both of the common suggestions is that they make the energy spent vs. energy gained vs. duration of other abilities ratio even more broken. Even with the current mechanics I can keep Link and Blessing up constantly as long as I'm popping EV whenever possible on heavy targets; this is without Fleeting Expertise.

[Guest Shibboleet]

If max duration made trinity great at blessing and energy vampire, she would top the dps charts and make everyone immune at the same time.

 

Trinity is done well right now since there is a choice between energy or being defensive.

[0xCAFE]

The problem with both of the common suggestions is that they make the energy spent vs. energy gained vs. duration of other abilities ratio even more broken. Even with the current mechanics I can keep Link and Blessing up constantly as long as I'm popping EV whenever possible on heavy targets; this is without Fleeting Expertise.

You can't sustain Link and Blessing on EV alone. Without Fleeting Expertise and with Streamline, Link and Blessing cost 122.5 energy. EV costs 35 energy and restores 100 over the duration. You're getting a net gain of 65 energy. They all have the same duration so if you're popping all 3 all the time, you're losing 57.5 energy over the duration assuming you babysit the EV target for the full duration. I suspect the reason why you can maintain all 3 abilities constantly is because of the abundance of energy orbs which is a different matter entirely. The topic at hand is how a positive ability modifier makes some of Trinity's abilities worse and it makes her other abilities better.

 

If max duration made trinity great at blessing and energy vampire, she would top the dps charts and make everyone immune at the same time.

How would she top the dps charts? The damage done by EV is insignificant when compared to a well modded gun, especially on high leveled heavies.

 

Trinity is done well right now since there is a choice between energy or being defensive.

And it shouldn't be a choice because it's a positive ability modifier. It would be like saying a positive power strength modifier increased the damage done by Rhino's Stomp but decreased the damage absorbed by his Iron Skin.

[Guest Shibboleet]

You can't sustain Link and Blessing on EV alone. Without Fleeting Expertise and with Streamline, Link and Blessing cost 122.5 energy. EV costs 35 energy and restores 100 over the duration. You're getting a net gain of 65 energy. They all have the same duration so if you're popping all 3 all the time, you're losing 57.5 energy over the duration assuming you babysit the EV target for the full duration. I suspect the reason why you can maintain all 3 abilities constantly is because of the abundance of energy orbs which is a different matter entirely. The topic at hand is how a positive ability modifier makes some of Trinity's abilities worse and it makes her other abilities better.

 

How would she top the dps charts? The damage done by EV is insignificant when compared to a well modded gun, especially on high leveled heavies.

 

And it shouldn't be a choice because it's a positive ability modifier. It would be like saying a positive power strength modifier increased the damage done by Rhino's Stomp but decreased the damage absorbed by his Iron Skin.

I hope you're kidding on the first item you quoted me on. Trinity does more damage than any gun on a high level enemy. My trinity was doing over 10 million damage ticks on a level 2000 enemy.

 

On the second quote it would be more like longer range cc on rhino stomp or more damage absorbed with iron skin (stretch + overextended vs power strength). It is just more noticeable on trinity.

[Leuca]

You can't sustain Link and Blessing on EV alone. Without Fleeting Expertise and with Streamline, Link and Blessing cost 122.5 energy. EV costs 35 energy and restores 100 over the duration. You're getting a net gain of 65 energy. They all have the same duration so if you're popping all 3 all the time, you're losing 57.5 energy over the duration assuming you babysit the EV target for the full duration. I suspect the reason why you can maintain all 3 abilities constantly is because of the abundance of energy orbs which is a different matter entirely. The topic at hand is how a positive ability modifier makes some of Trinity's abilities worse and it makes her other abilities better.

 

How would she top the dps charts? The damage done by EV is insignificant when compared to a well modded gun, especially on high leveled heavies.

 

And it shouldn't be a choice because it's a positive ability modifier. It would be like saying a positive power strength modifier increased the damage done by Rhino's Stomp but decreased the damage absorbed by his Iron Skin.

Focus increases the energy gained by EV enough to maintain both Link and Blessing constantly once you get a cycle going. I use only the Aura helmet for duration. The one second difference in duration between EV and Link/Blessing starts to add up the longer you keep the cycle going because duration increases by %, meaning you are increasing the durations of Link/Blessing slightly more than that of EV. You must also factor in the cast time of each ability, which compounds this effect.

 

I can easily do a ridiculous amount of dps by essentially self-destructing with Stug while Link/Blessing are active.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Leuca

[0xCAFE]

I hope you're kidding on the first item you quoted me on. Trinity does more damage than any gun on a high level enemy. My trinity was doing over 10 million damage ticks on a level 2000 enemy.

 

On the second quote it would be more like longer range cc on rhino stomp or more damage absorbed with iron skin (stretch + overextended vs power strength). It is just more noticeable on trinity.

Stretch + Overextended gives +135% power range and -60% power strength. Of course, that should improve some abilities while diminishing others. It gives a positive modifier and a negative modifier. But let's say only stretch was there, that means a +45% power range modifier. That should not make one ability better and make another ability worse. That is the case here with +power duration. By having just Continuity (+30%), it improves Blessing and Link while making EV worse. There's no negative ability modifier there. Hence my analogy of putting Focus on Rhino. That shouldn't make his stomp do more damage while making his iron skin weaker.

 

Edit: OK, I found out that EV does percentage based damage. So it's doing high damage due to high scaling of enemies. This only happens at extreme high levels. The cause of your complaint of extreme damage is percentage based damage, not the period over which that damage is dealt. Because even with a 20 second energy vampire, at some point, enemy HP will reach such absurd levels that even percentage based damage over 20 seconds will become the king of damage. If DE wants to reign in extreme damage at high levels, the solution is to make percentage based damage fixed damage, not increase the period it's dealt over.

Edited January 5, 2014 by 0xCAFE

[PsycloneM]

The problem with both of the common suggestions is that they make the energy spent vs. energy gained vs. duration of other abilities ratio even more broken. Even with the current mechanics I can keep Link and Blessing up constantly as long as I'm popping EV whenever possible on heavy targets; this is without Fleeting Expertise.

 

I don't quite understand your first point. There are no other abilities that can restore energy (unless you want to include Desecrate loot). Energy Vampire is the current basis for energy regeneration powers as it's the only one with that functionality. Comparing one power that is not designed to regenerate energy with Energy Vampire, and stating that Energy Vampire is broken because of mods improving said regeneration is not exactly a fair statement. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you.

 

Regarding your second point, I agree with you. That doesn't change the fact that a non-penalizing mod like Continuity/Constitution is actually reducing the effectiveness of Energy Vampire. I'm arguing from an ability mechanic perspective. The calculations I provided are only indicative of what could be if the base duration remains the same; the base duration can always be adjusted to tame Energy Vampire's regeneration if 100 energy over 4.92 seconds is considered to be too strong.

 

 

If max duration made trinity great at blessing and energy vampire, she would top the dps charts and make everyone immune at the same time.

 

Trinity already has extremely high single-target DPS (if not the highest), and can make herself and allies immune even with Fleeting Expertise. Power duration improving energy regeneration while increasing Blessing's duration would not change that. Besides, The Well of Life + Energy Vampire combo takes far too long to set up to be practical. Her single-target DPS potential becomes useful when your weapon damage becomes horribly insufficient: a point at which game balance is not centered around.

 

On the second quote it would be more like longer range cc on rhino stomp or more damage absorbed with iron skin (stretch + overextended vs power strength). It is just more noticeable on trinity.

 

You are using Overextended, so it makes sense that you would sacrifice power strength for increased range. The OP is describing a hypothetical situation where increased power strength (from Focus for example) improved Rhino Stomp, but reduced the amount of damage absorbed for Iron Skin. You shouldn't be forced to trade the effectiveness of your powers when you equip mods with no inherent penalties; yet, this is exactly what happens with Trinity (Energy Vampire) and Saryn (Miasma) with power duration mods like Continuity and Constitution.

 

EDIT: I just noticed the OP's clarification above.

Edited January 6, 2014 by PsycloneM

[Leuca]

I don't quite understand your first point. There are no other abilities that can restore energy (unless you want to include Desecrate loot). Energy Vampire is the current basis for energy regeneration powers as it's the only one with that functionality. Comparing one power that is not designed to regenerate energy with Energy Vampire, and stating that Energy Vampire is broken because of mods improving said regeneration is not exactly a fair statement. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you.

I was actually comparing EV to only Trinity's other abilities. The more energy you can gain from EV during Link/Blessing duration, the easier they are to maintain. Having + duration actually reduce the duration on EV would completely trivialize the relationship between EV and Trinity's other abilities, similar to how having it keep its base interval for 25+ second Blessings would do the same thing.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Leuca

[Guest Shibboleet]

Stretch + Overextended gives +135% power range and -60% power strength. Of course, that should improve some abilities while diminishing others. It gives a positive modifier and a negative modifier. But let's say only stretch was there, that means a +45% power range modifier. That should not make one ability better and make another ability worse. That is the case here with +power duration. By having just Continuity (+30%), it improves Blessing and Link while making EV worse. There's no negative ability modifier there. Hence my analogy of putting Focus on Rhino. That shouldn't make his stomp do more damage while making his iron skin weaker.

 

Edit: OK, I found out that EV does percentage based damage. So it's doing high damage due to high scaling of enemies. This only happens at extreme high levels. The cause of your complaint of extreme damage is percentage based damage, not the period over which that damage is dealt. Because even with a 20 second energy vampire, at some point, enemy HP will reach such absurd levels that even percentage based damage over 20 seconds will become the king of damage. If DE wants to reign in extreme damage at high levels, the solution is to make percentage based damage fixed damage, not increase the period it's dealt over.

Faster ticks = More dps. Yes I'm aware that it is % based damage and I'm not complaining about it. What I am trying to get across is that there are currently two styles of building trinity.

 

Energy spec: Less duration more strength and range

     Downsides: Blessing is used as a heal and only lasts 3 seconds

     Positives: Kill anything extremely fast and give unlimited energy to the party

Blessing spec: Duration with range if you are opting in Link

     Downsides: Energy vamp ticks extremely slow

     Positives: You can make everyone immune for 30 seconds

 

Both builds are currently in use which is a good thing. If it was changed so that duration would buff EV it would make trinity even more godmode status with both high dps and make your party immune for 30 seconds.

 

I think Trinity is in a great spot right now even if one of her abilities suffer more noticeably from +/- duration.

[PsycloneM]

I was actually comparing EV to only Trinity's other abilities. The more energy you can gain from EV during Link/Blessing duration, the easier they are to maintain. Having + duration actually reduce the duration on EV would completely trivialize the relationship between EV and Trinity's other abilities, similar to how having it keep its base interval for 25+ second Blessings would do the same thing.

 

Ah, I see now. In that case, let me clarify. My argument is that duration mods with no inherent penalties should not decrease the effectiveness of any power in this game. I understand that with the current 9 second duration and 100 base energy restored, Energy Vampire would become far more powerful than it is now. I'm not arguing this needs to happen; I'm all for adjusting base stats across the board in order to make the proposal work. Consider the following:

 

Energy Vampire now has a base duration of 25/21/18/14, and restores 80 energy. Power strength affects the total energy gained as usual, and the base duration is divided by ( 1 + power duration ). Let's also assume that Link and Blessing each have an 8 second duration. With +83% power duration from Continuity, Constitution, and Aura, we have a 7.65 second duration for Energy Vampire and a 14.64 second duration for Link/Blessing.

 

With Streamline equipped, I'll receive a net energy of 80 - 35 = 45 in a single cast of Energy Vampire. I cast Link for 52.5 energy. In the ideal situation that I'm extremely timely, let's say I can fit two casts of Energy Vampire into Link. That's 8 ticks of 20 energy = 160 total energy. The net energy after Link expires is equal to 160 - 52.5 - 35 - 35 = 37.5.

 

I cast Link and Blessing, followed by Energy Vampire. Again, let's assume that I can fit two casts of Energy Vampire while invulnerable. That's 160 - 70 - 52.5 - 35 - 35 = -32.5 net energy.

 

Comparing the current Trinity with Aura and Streamline equipped, Energy Vampire, Link, and Blessing will have a duration of 11.25, 12.5, and 12.5 seconds each. One cast of Energy Vampire nets me 100 - 35 = 65 energy. I'll most likely be able to fit one full cast of Energy Vampire into Link: this nets me 100 - 52.5 - 35 = 12.5 energy. With the Link/Blessing combo, that's 100 - 70 - 52.5 - 35 = -57.5 net energy.

 

The difference between the net energy acquired after power usage in both scenarios is essentially a single energy orb. It is definitely possible for increased power duration to benefit Energy Vampire without dramatically increasing the effectiveness of her entire kit. As this is just one example, all of the base stats I've adjusted can be further modified to produce a more desired skill set.

Edited January 6, 2014 by PsycloneM

[Leuca]

Ah, I see now. In that case, let me clarify. My argument is that duration mods with no inherent penalties should not decrease the effectiveness of any power in this game. I understand that with the current 9 second duration and 100 base energy restored, Energy Vampire would become far more powerful than it is now. I'm not arguing this needs to happen; I'm all for adjusting base stats across the board in order to make the proposal work. Consider the following:

 

Energy Vampire now has a base duration of 25/21/18/14, and restores 80 energy. Power strength affects the total energy gained as usual, and the base duration is divided by ( 1 + power duration ). Let's also assume that Link and Blessing each have an 8 second duration. With +83% power duration from Continuity, Constitution, and Aura, we have a 7.65 second duration for Energy Vampire and a 14.64 second duration for Link/Blessing.

 

With Streamline equipped, I'll receive a net energy of 80 - 35 = 45 in a single cast of Energy Vampire. I cast Link for 52.5 energy. In the ideal situation that I'm extremely timely, let's say I can fit two casts of Energy Vampire into Link. That's 8 ticks of 20 energy = 160 total energy. The net energy after Link expires is equal to 160 - 52.5 - 35 - 35 = 37.5.

 

I cast Link and Blessing, followed by Energy Vampire. Again, let's assume that I can fit two casts of Energy Vampire while invulnerable. That's 160 - 70 - 52.5 - 35 - 35 = -32.5 net energy.

 

Comparing the current Trinity with Aura and Streamline equipped, Energy Vampire, Link, and Blessing will have a duration of 11.25, 12.5, and 12.5 seconds each. One cast of Energy Vampire nets me 100 - 35 = 65 energy. I'll most likely be able to fit one full cast of Energy Vampire into Link: this nets me 100 - 52.5 - 35 = 12.5 energy. With the Link/Blessing combo, that's 100 - 70 - 52.5 - 35 = -57.5 net energy.

 

The difference between the net energy acquired after power usage in both scenarios is essentially a single energy orb. It is definitely possible for increased power duration to benefit Energy Vampire without dramatically increasing the effectiveness of her entire kit. As this is just one example, all of the base stats I've adjusted can be further modified to produce a more desired skill set.

What happens to players that don't like to build duration though? Your example is certainly interesting but would severely impact how many Trinity users play, because if they don't put any duration mods on her they won't receive anything close to good energy payback from EV. Especially during early game, Trinity can't really afford for one of her abilities to take 25 seconds to do something useful; that's very hampering to your team and would probably end up frustrating even the Trinity user. This situation would basically force users to build duration because it would obviously be her best-scaling stat, benefiting every ability while stats like strength/range only affect some.

 

The issue is that right now there is at least some semblance of balance between her two commonly used builds; changing EV too drastically will only benefit one playstyle while isolating the other (along with non-meta builds). Right now I'm running an in-between build that doesn't utilize corrupted mods, and only uses Aura for duration, and I pretty much never have trouble keeping my team alive (and doing damage via Link) without some form of CC until enemies are just one-shotting during the recast.

 

In my opinion there's really only two options that will really avoid punishing players. You can:

 

a)Make EV not scale with duration at all, similar to Banshee's Soundquake. This would still make duration Trinity's best stat but wouldn't punish players who like to run battery builds.

 

or

 

b)Change EV's functionality again.

 

My first instinct would be option (a), with a slight change to EV to make it jump to the nearest available enemy if its target dies early. This would be easier to do than a complete revamp, as well as allow the rest of her kit to be looked at more closely for better balancing. Well of Life is still garbage for anything other than a better EV target early game and CC late game, Link is still suffering from lack of self-sufficiency, and Blessing is still pretty much OP, even though its current iteration is necessary to keep Trinity relevant.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Leuca

[0xCAFE]

Faster ticks = More dps. Yes I'm aware that it is % based damage and I'm not complaining about it. What I am trying to get across is that there are currently two styles of building trinity.

 

Energy spec: Less duration more strength and range

     Downsides: Blessing is used as a heal and only lasts 3 seconds

     Positives: Kill anything extremely fast and give unlimited energy to the party

Blessing spec: Duration with range if you are opting in Link

     Downsides: Energy vamp ticks extremely slow

     Positives: You can make everyone immune for 30 seconds

 

Both builds are currently in use which is a good thing. If it was changed so that duration would buff EV it would make trinity even more godmode status with both high dps and make your party immune for 30 seconds.

 

I think Trinity is in a great spot right now even if one of her abilities suffer more noticeably from +/- duration.

And my point is that a mod such as Continuity or Constitution which has no downside should not make Energy Vampire less effective. Having multiple builds should be based around choosing whether to stack Power Strength, Range, or Duration. If that is DE's goal, to make multiple builds viable, then they should change the kit so Strength, Range, and Duration stacking are viable.