What Everyone Actually Means When They Say 'token System'?

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I play ARPG games so I see this in every single ARPG...people who want instant gratifications spend lots of time and effort creating suggestions for features that are just a thinly veiled attempt to find an acceptable instant gratification reward system...so they can promptly complain how there is nothing to do now that they have all the gear needed...and then come the MMORPG feature suggestions.  Next thing you know they are basically suggesting a Burning Crusade expansion for whatever game it is...in this case Warframe.

If by "instant gratification" you mean "A backstop just in case so I don't run 10+ hours of survival without getting that last fang prime blade/Burston prime receiver/etc", then you're correct.

 

But you don't, so I disagree with you.

 

edit: Didn't specify survival

Edited February 13, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1

[shr0ud]

Side note: Does anyone else remember back when people played the game because it was simply fun?  Seems most play based on what they are getting these days, and if they are not getting it fast, screw the game play, they call it grind and unfair and leave.

I think it's a grind and it's unfair, but I haven't left yet. I just like the idea of going fast and getting what I want fast.

[Luminati07]

I have a firm belief that a lot of gamers need protection from themselves or else they get everything they want super fast, then get bored, then get mad.

 

Either way they are mad.

 

But at least with RNG loot, they have a reason to keep going.

 

People who quit because they don't get RNG drops will quit just as fast after acquiring said drops from tokens.

 

I play ARPG games so I see this in every single ARPG...people who want instant gratifications spend lots of time and effort creating suggestions for features that are just a thinly veiled attempt to find an acceptable instant gratification reward system...so they can promptly complain how there is nothing to do now that they have all the gear needed...and then come the MMORPG feature suggestions.  Next thing you know they are basically suggesting a Burning Crusade expansion for whatever game it is...in this case Warframe.

 

What they need to do is expand the loot selection and gear, give us some other stuff to hunt other than materials.

 

Side note: Does anyone else remember back when people played the game because it was simply fun?  Seems most play based on what they are getting these days, and if they are not getting it fast, screw the game play, they call it grind and unfair and leave.

 

If you like warframes combat, and enjoy playing...and your able to do the content with what you have (no gear check that you need to rely on RNG...that's a no-no) it shouldn't matter if you are grinding, because the grind is playing, and playing is fun.

 

If you need constant guaranteed loot to enjoy it...you probably don't like the game.

It's got nothing to do with instant gratification. It's about what's fair to the player.

 

RNG loot doesn't give a player to keep going, especially when RNG loot doesn't provide any sense of achievement.

Other action RPGs either have a deep loot system (I'm talking hundreds and hundreds of items. Something Warframe will never truly have), or a randomly generated item system.

 

Either way, both blow Warframe out of the water in terms of "gratification".

 

Looking at the RNG/Token issue as a simple way of players getting "instant gratification" is an extremely lazy way of viewing the issue.

I suggested a system that is 100% fair to the player.

RNG still exists, but if you are on an unlucky streak (dozens of unsuccessful missions), then you have the ability to simply purchase that item.

"instant gratification" has absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

It's not, oh, I'll run 1 mission and get everything I want. There's still a dedication of time involved (Which you would realise if you thoroughly read my post)

 

*Edit*

And, yes, I do remember the times when people played games for fun.

I played Warframe for fun.

But, what does Warframe have to fall back on when that "fun" lessens so much that it becomes nothing but frustration and boredom?

Absolutely nothing. That's what.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Nugget_

[shr0ud]

But, what does Warframe have to fall back on when that "fun" lessens so much that it becomes nothing but frustration and boredom?

Absolutely nothing. That's what.

the option to turn the game off for a month is an option, a very valid one.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

the option to turn the game off for a month is an option, a very valid one.

One that does not fix the problem however.

[Luminati07]

the option to turn the game off for a month is an option, a very valid one.

Heh.

Well, if the only option to overcome boredom is to stop playing the game...Well, yeah...I don't think I need to elaborate further.

[Vortok]

Token system is just a method of guaranteed loot.  Maybe something will drop for you sooner, but if you do something X number of times you're guaranteed what you want.  Never longer, and maybe a bit shorter.

 

It usually degenerates into mindlessly farming whatever is the most &!$$ easy content for said tokens in the most mindless, uninteresting way possible. Often to hit a weekly cap, and generally for long after you overgear the content said tokens come from.  It gets boring very fast.

 

Tons of people played Diablo II in all it's RNG loot drop glory.  Suddenly that's not good enough and we need to have stuff now now now.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Vortok

[Luminati07]

Token system is just a method of guaranteed loot.  Maybe something will drop for you sooner, but if you do something X number of times you're guaranteed what you want.  Never longer, and maybe a bit shorter.

 

It usually degenerates into mindlessly farming whatever is the most &!$$ easy content for said tokens in the most mindless, uninteresting way possible. Often to hit a weekly cap, and generally for long after you overgear the content said tokens come from.  It gets boring very fast.

 

Tons of people played Diablo II in all it's RNG loot drop glory.  Suddenly that's not good enough and we need to have stuff now now now.

The difference is, Diablo II had nearly an infinite amount of loot.

If items in Warframe were randomly generated, then your comparison would hold some merit.

[Kaidinah]

Token system is just a method of guaranteed loot.  Maybe something will drop for you sooner, but if you do something X number of times you're guaranteed what you want.  Never longer, and maybe a bit shorter.

 

It usually degenerates into mindlessly farming whatever is the most &!$$ easy content for said tokens in the most mindless, uninteresting way possible. Often to hit a weekly cap, and generally for long after you overgear the content said tokens come from.  It gets boring very fast.

 

Tons of people played Diablo II in all it's RNG loot drop glory.  Suddenly that's not good enough and we need to have stuff now now now.

As opposed to mindlessly grinding 30 Tower 1 defense missions in hopes of maybe getting frang prime blueprints? You will still mindlessly grind something, but at least this way you don't get the urge to quit playing just because the RNG decided that yes, you DO need to play that T2 capture 100 times.

[Zaresin]

As opposed to mindlessly grinding 30 Tower 1 defense missions in hopes of maybe getting frang prime blueprints? You will still mindlessly grind something, but at least this way you don't get the urge to quit playing just because the RNG decided that yes, you DO need to play that T2 capture 100 times.

 

 

the difference....instead of YES I FINALLY GOT THE FANG PRIME BLUEPRINTS....its yes I"m finally done farming these stupid tokens now I can buy the fang prime blueprints.  

 

And if you want to get technical...we currently have an RNG based loot system and token loot system...you just need RNG to get the token you want or get the materials you need to make the token.  (yes a frame systems is tech a token).  

 

Implementing this will NEVER solve the loot gripe...because I can tell you exactly what the next whinefest will be...WANT MORE TOKENS PER RUN.....want proof...if you played FFXIV before 2.1 came out that was exactly the gripe....haven't been back since 2.1 came out and won't go back.  People crying are ruining that game just like they tend to ruin other games (RIP my mesmer).  To be brutally honest and I know I am not the only one with this mindset, but the moment they implement a token system like the one you and nugget want...is the moment I quit playing completely.  I like a challenge (and yes not getting frustrated and giving up is considered a challenge) but getting things handed to me guaranteed is not a challenge and I like most gamers will get bored very quickly as the content is easy, getting what you want is not...so you want to make the content easy and getting what you want easy....yeah sorry but I won't stick around once it comes to that.  Considering how fickle gamers are...a lot of the community won't either in my opinion.

[Zaresin]

And to be brutally honest, what the hell do you think a token system is?  It is a time wall.  It is designed to be that.  We have plenty of people whining as it is about the current time walls.  It will only get worse implementing a full token system.  A complete token system like FFXIV is designed to lengthen the life of content by putting up blocks in place to limit the acquisition of content in a short period.  AKA TIME WALL.  

Edited February 17, 2014 by Zaresin

[Multiple]

It's free to play, meaning the way they make make money is motivating you to spend money to get items rather than farming them, since farming is a minor inconvenience and some people would rather shortcut the farming.

That's why you will not see a token system.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Multiple

[Luminati07]

It's free to play, meaning the way they make make money is motivating you to spend money to get items rather than farming them, since farming is a minor inconvenience and some people would rather shortcut the farming.

That's why you will not see a token system.

True.

 

But, this token system is for the Void.

What can you buy with plat to shortcut that? Nothing.

 

There's no increase RNG chance booster.

 

What about endless Void farming is "motivating you to spend money"? Not a single thing. All it's doing is driving people away

[Zaresin]

True.

 

But, this token system is for the Void.

What can you buy with plat to shortcut that? Nothing.

 

There's no increase RNG chance booster.

 

What about endless Void farming is "motivating you to spend money"? Not a single thing. All it's doing is driving people away

Two words:

Prime access

 

Why spend 120 bucks to get the items that you can just grind a bunch of little tokens and get it within a week?  The boosters, syndanna, and extractor are def not worth 120 bucks by themselves so after that...why should I spend money...helping this game be developed...when I don't really have to work to get the items that would only take me a week to get?  Most people wont.  Very few people will out of the kindness of their heart, throw money at DE or any game company really and expect nothing in return.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Zaresin

[Kaidinah]

the difference....instead of YES I FINALLY GOT THE FANG PRIME BLUEPRINTS....its yes I"m finally done farming these stupid tokens now I can buy the fang prime blueprints.  

 

And if you want to get technical...we currently have an RNG based loot system and token loot system...you just need RNG to get the token you want or get the materials you need to make the token.  (yes a frame systems is tech a token).  

 

Implementing this will NEVER solve the loot gripe...because I can tell you exactly what the next whinefest will be...WANT MORE TOKENS PER RUN.....want proof...if you played FFXIV before 2.1 came out that was exactly the gripe....haven't been back since 2.1 came out and won't go back.  People crying are ruining that game just like they tend to ruin other games (RIP my mesmer).  To be brutally honest and I know I am not the only one with this mindset, but the moment they implement a token system like the one you and nugget want...is the moment I quit playing completely.  I like a challenge (and yes not getting frustrated and giving up is considered a challenge) but getting things handed to me guaranteed is not a challenge and I like most gamers will get bored very quickly as the content is easy, getting what you want is not...so you want to make the content easy and getting what you want easy....yeah sorry but I won't stick around once it comes to that.  Considering how fickle gamers are...a lot of the community won't either in my opinion.

It is hard to respect the opinion of someone who thinks that running over 100 T2 captures for a prime part leads to excitement. I am sorry, but a token system would beat that insane level of farming any day of the week. You are wrong.

[Killerdude8]

I think Tokens should be Mission Specific and the different Towers Tiers would only increase the amount you get.

 

So there'd be:

Survival Token

Defence Token

Mobile Defence Token

Capture Token

Exterminate Token

 

Each item in the Token shop could cost multiple amounts of different Token types, So for Example, Bronco Prime barrel could cost like 50 Survival Tokens and 25 Capture tokens.

 

This way prevents people from just farming the ever living S#&$ out of Endless Survival and Defence and makes people play the other Tower missions for the Tokens they need.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Killerdude8

[Zaresin]

It is hard to respect the opinion of someone who thinks that running over 100 T2 captures for a prime part leads to excitement. I am sorry, but a token system would beat that insane level of farming any day of the week. You are wrong.

matter of opinion.  I do agree that over 100 is excessive but I highly doubt that you would have ran over 100 for one item and not recieved it.  If you did I am very sorry about your bad luck...don't buy a lottery ticket.  All joking aside, no 100 runs for one item is asinine.  That is why you take a break, grind something else then come back and try again.  Doing the same mission over and over expecting different results is kind of crazy in my opinion.  what has been your luck since they updated the loot tables?

[Zaresin]

I think Tokens should be Mission Specific and the different Towers Tiers would only increase the amount you get.

 

So there'd be:

Survival Token

Defence Token

Mobile Defence Token

Capture Token

Exterminate Token

 

Each item in the Token shop could cost multiple amounts of different Token types, So for Example, Bronco Prime barrel could cost like 50 Survival Tokens and 25 Capture tokens.

 

This way prevents people from just farming the ever living S#&$ out of Endless Survival and Defence and makes people play the other Tower missions for the Tokens they need.

I like that idea....but again we would run into the argument of "WANT MORE TOKENS PER RUN"....that is where I see this argument evolving.  If anything is proof positive on these forums and other forums of any game where you have to grind it is people expect to get things quickly with little time investment.  The oxium issue is a prime example.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Zaresin

[Kaidinah]

matter of opinion.  I do agree that over 100 is excessive but I highly doubt that you would have ran over 100 for one item and not recieved it.  If you did I am very sorry about your bad luck...don't buy a lottery ticket.  All joking aside, no 100 runs for one item is asinine.  That is why you take a break, grind something else then come back and try again.  Doing the same mission over and over expecting different results is kind of crazy in my opinion.  what has been your luck since they updated the loot tables?

I am lucky enough to have only had to run about 20 times for most things, but I have multiple in-clan friends who spend months trying to find stuff, and have in fact ran over 100 void missions for certain pieces of gear. A token system should be a failsafe to those poor souls, not a quicker way for me to get my stuff.

 

Also the new loot tables for void defense missions are awful. It's almost always the same bad rewards.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Kaidinah

[Killerdude8]

I like that idea....but again we would run into the argument of "WANT MORE TOKENS PER RUN"....that is where I see this argument evolving.  If anything is proof positive on these forums and other forums of any game where you have to grind it is people expect to get things quickly with little time investment.  The oxium issue is a prime example.

Probably, but it sure beats the terrible RNG clusterfuck we are forced through now.

 

You do X number of runs and no matter what, at the end of X number of runs, you are GUARANTEED to get the item you desire.

 

Win.

Win.

Nothing more, Nothing less.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Killerdude8

[Kipp-vas-Xerinae]

True.

 

But, this token system is for the Void.

What can you buy with plat to shortcut that? Nothing.

 

There's no increase RNG chance booster.

 

What about endless Void farming is "motivating you to spend money"? Not a single thing. All it's doing is driving people away

 

Agree. You still need a farm to get prime parts/tokens but if you didn't get something after dozens of runs you can always exchange your earned tokens, so it still take some time to get what you want however a good thing is you can see your progress if you're unlucky person.

 

Sometimes i feel mad that Prime Access affect drop tables, it seems like they want forced on us to buy that pack due to ur frustration, but sadly that buisness strategy works.

 

 

Probably, but it sure beats the terrible RNG clusterfuck we are forced through now.

 

You do X number of runs and no matter what, at the end of X number of runs, you are GUARANTEED to get the item you desire.

 

That's actually good idea, like i said before if you're extremely unlucky that way you can always track you're progress...

 

[Zaresin]

I am lucky enough to have only had to run about 20 times for most things, but I have multiple in-clan friends who spend months trying to find stuff, and have in fact ran over 100 void missions for certain pieces of gear. A token system should be a failsafe to those poor souls, not a quicker way for me to get my stuff.

 

Also the new loot tables for void defense missions are awful. It's almost always the same bad rewards.

So far I have been very lucky with those loot tables I guess.  I mainly use it now to rank up weapons and frames.  Not entirely sure how they will fix the complete grind issue without removing the push for people to spend money on this game.  If they make it too easy to get things then why should people pay for prime access?  To be honest, I don't think they will because they do have to make money some how and if there is no longer that drive or push to get things faster via things like prime access then new content won't be published because they will lose money and they have a company to run.  If we were paying a monthly fee, yeah I can see this being a non issue...but we don't.  So I don't ever see a token system being implemented like the one you guys want.  It would be a poor business decision.

[Zaresin]

Probably, but it sure beats the terrible RNG clusterfuck we are forced through now.

 

You do X number of runs and no matter what, at the end of X number of runs, you are GUARANTEED to get the item you desire.

 

Win.

Win.

Nothing more, Nothing less.

 

I hate to say have patience, but I am going to have to (god knows I'm impatient so I am in the same boat as you), but as newer stuff comes out I honestly think they will remove the crap rewards that you get at the 20 wave mark for defense and replace them with just prime parts.  It may not be the prime part you want but once we have enough in there I can see it just being prime pieces in that time slot.  They changed things around so much and removed the overlap, that the loot tables have no dilution, at minimum you have three prime pieces per tower.  They had to add something in there to dilute it a bit.  I think the more prime items we have the less likely we will have those crappy key rewards.  So I have to say patience.  

 

I do agree they need to increase the probability of getting a prime piece at that time though....not everyone has the same luck.  I also think the probability should be the same for each of those pieces during that time so that you have an equal chance of getting any of them rather than one being considered more rare than the other if it is not this way already.  They have been rather mum on that aspect.

 

The only problem then being if they do just put prime parts in there is that keys prob will become hard to get again.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Zaresin

[Teorina]

I agree with alot of what Zaresin is saying. Token systems do have a habit of becoming about efficiently reaching the daily/weekly cap and then logging off.

 

I wonder if a token system that helps without simply giving you the item would work? Token's that exchange for keys or new challenges that have void rewards in smaller tables so that you still need some RNG to get the exact item but you could improve your chances? I don't really know and am just throwing ideas out there.

 

Whilst the D2 comparison is not strictly accurate, the discussion of a token system (along with all the threads about Zephyr timewall, Oxium farming and so on) demonstrate the move in gaming to have everything immediately. People seem unwilling to work or wait for their new toys yet many of those same people will later complain about having nothing to do.

 

I don't think a token system is needed. The problems with RNG are frustrating people because it does not take long in this game to reach a point where getting a new gun/frame to 30 is the only thing left to do so they pour all their focus into it and get annoyed. If DE can implement a true "end-game" for people to focus on then they will still play the missions they are currently farming but that new gun/frame becomes an aside and the pressure to get it immediately goes away.

[Luminati07]

Two words:

Prime access

 

Why spend 120 bucks to get the items that you can just grind a bunch of little tokens and get it within a week?  The boosters, syndanna, and extractor are def not worth 120 bucks by themselves so after that...why should I spend money...helping this game be developed...when I don't really have to work to get the items that would only take me a week to get?  Most people wont.  Very few people will out of the kindness of their heart, throw money at DE or any game company really and expect nothing in return.

You obviously didn't read my OP in full.

I mentioned prime access, and a solution to players farming enough tokens to instantly buy them.