What Everyone Actually Means When They Say 'token System'?

[Zaresin]

You obviously didn't read my OP in full.

I mentioned prime access, and a solution to players farming enough tokens to instantly buy them.

If it has changed recently then I prob missed it I tend to not reread the original post if I have already and I may have missed it the first time.  I'll have to go back an reread it.  How you been by the way bubba?

 

EDIT:  Ok reread the section about the prime access....again to be honest, it would still make it fairly easy to get those items once they would release them.  I'm less inclined to support the idea personally as it would take away from the drive to pay for prime access.  That's my opinion.  Doesn't mean it is a bad idea, it just isnt' something I would feel is a good idea for a business to make.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Zaresin

[Zaresin]

I agree with alot of what Zaresin is saying. Token systems do have a habit of becoming about efficiently reaching the daily/weekly cap and then logging off.

 

I wonder if a token system that helps without simply giving you the item would work? Token's that exchange for keys or new challenges that have void rewards in smaller tables so that you still need some RNG to get the exact item but you could improve your chances? I don't really know and am just throwing ideas out there.

 

Whilst the D2 comparison is not strictly accurate, the discussion of a token system (along with all the threads about Zephyr timewall, Oxium farming and so on) demonstrate the move in gaming to have everything immediately. People seem unwilling to work or wait for their new toys yet many of those same people will later complain about having nothing to do.

 

I don't think a token system is needed. The problems with RNG are frustrating people because it does not take long in this game to reach a point where getting a new gun/frame to 30 is the only thing left to do so they pour all their focus into it and get annoyed. If DE can implement a true "end-game" for people to focus on then they will still play the missions they are currently farming but that new gun/frame becomes an aside and the pressure to get it immediately goes away.

I agree completely and really like your idea.  It has merit.  Gonna send your post to a dev to have them look at it and maybe they can add it to their list of possibilities. I like the idea of being able to "purchase" challenges for perks.  It adds options that don't 'just hand the item over when you're are done doing X.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Zaresin

[Luminati07]

If it has changed recently then I prob missed it I tend to not reread the original post if I have already and I may have missed it the first time.  I'll have to go back an reread it.  How you been by the way bubba?

 

EDIT:  Ok reread the section about the prime access....again to be honest, it would still make it fairly easy to get those items once they would release them.  I'm less inclined to support the idea personally as it would take away from the drive to pay for prime access.  That's my opinion.  Doesn't mean it is a bad idea, it just isnt' something I would feel is a good idea for a business to make.

Nope, hasn't changed since I last posted it.

 

Basically, when a new Prime Access is released, the new items wouldn't be added to the "token market" for several weeks, or even a month.

This way, those who want to have instant access to these new items may pay money, or people can try their luck at RNG for these several weeks/month until the latest items are added to the token market.

[Zaresin]

Nope, hasn't changed since I last posted it.

 

Basically, when a new Prime Access is released, the new items wouldn't be added to the "token market" for several weeks, or even a month.

This way, those who want to have instant access to these new items may pay money, or people can try their luck at RNG for these several weeks/month until the latest items are added to the token market.

 

I get the idea, to be honest it makes me uncomfortable and I've sat here trying to type out a post to explain it and each time I try it comes off wrong or not what I'm trying to say.  I'll have to come back to this after I get some more coffee in me.  I want to response to be articulate and not come off as "I pay so I am better than you" sorta thing which after rereading my post before I submitted it, it kind of came off that way which is not my thinking.  

 

EDIT:  Ok here we go.

 

After thinking about your proposal in regards to prime access only, I would have to say no for me.

 

Currently prime access is a gate to shortcut the time it takes to get new prime items that are accessible through grinding.  A token system would shorten that gate for those players that did not wish to purchase the prime access package (not a bad thing necessarily).  We, however, would run into an issue or risk in this instance.  By setting a time frame that those items in the prime access were not able to be purchased with tokens, players that have completed all content they wish to acquire and have grinded up enough tokens to purchase the gear once it goes on "sale" would be absent from the game as all they would have to do is wait it out till the content was released (similar to what many players do now in between content release updates).  That is a huge risk as those players are not contributing to the life of the game in a meaningful way.  

 

Another risk is we would end up seeing what happened to FFXIV and their tombstone token system.  Players would grind wayfinders palace in under 12 min (if you took a PLD, BLM, BRD, WHM) (shortest run for me in a pug was 15min with longest being 18 min).  Grinding out the tokens for the weekly cap took less than three to four hours.  I do not want to see that happen to warframe.  

 

While the cost of the prime access package is steep.  The benefits it gives you outweigh the negative.  Even without the prime items, the 4300 plat and 90 day boosters still give you a 37% discount overall.  That is pretty nice.  The icing on the cake is the cut in grind time for those primes.  For those members of the community on the fence of whether to buy the prime access, that can make or break their decision a lot of the time.  If all they have to do is grind up the tokens before hand then wait till they are released to the general public, they may have a higher chance of ignoring the prime access altogether.  From a business perspective, it is all about maximizing your profits (yes it sounds cold hearted but that is reality).  Adding a token system opens up a huge amount of risk for the business, with chance of very little reward.  As those players that would take advantage of it would be a large part of the community and in all likelihood abuse it (we all like to find shortcuts and use them so even if you don't admit it on here, admit it to yourself).  

 

If we had the time between when you are unable to get prime items with tokens, we would have the same issue that we are having with the tenno lab and oxium.  People are never satisfied.  They want things now and on their terms.  They do not like being told you have to wait.  So instead of people crying about the time wall for the tenno lab, we would have posts about the time wall for getting those prime items that you can get from prime access.  (hope that last part made sense, I may try to clear it up later).  So to be honest, there is too much risk with very little reward and as this is a free to play game, it relies on players paying for that prime access.  Taking away the incentive is not good business.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Zaresin

[Alspect]

so token system after a hard reset on all accounts? ; D .... nah this will only make the game more easy and brainless to play, like all prime stuff in less than a week, then what to do man... what to do....

[KvotheTheArcane1]

You know, it doesn't have to be a pure token system, it could simply be a back up to the RNG we have, i.e. you can sell prime parts/BPs for tokens, maybe limit how many per day you can sell.

 

Keeps the RNG, adds a good way of making sure you only have to ever do X runs and not some stupid number like 100 and still not have it.

[Zaresin]

You know, it doesn't have to be a pure token system, it could simply be a back up to the RNG we have, i.e. you can sell prime parts/BPs for tokens, maybe limit how many per day you can sell.

 

Keeps the RNG, adds a good way of making sure you only have to ever do X runs and not some stupid number like 100 and still not have it.

 

That isn't a bad idea as you still have to work for it but gives you something to do with the overload of pieces you don't need other than using them for credit fodder.  I think that was the first thing you've ever posted that I completely agreed with and liked....*looks outside*....no no raining cats and dogs....

Edited February 17, 2014 by Zaresin

[FlyDungas]

I was thinking about this in the sense of some kind of void armory, that has holograms of the prime parts in a kind of orokin research lab you have to find. You scan the part you want and finish the mission. After maybe like 50 scans of that part you get a blueprint for it

Edited February 17, 2014 by FlyDungas

[Rainei00]

+1

With this I can finally get my Frost Prime Systems.

[Luminati07]

For people still reading.

 

What do you think of the Void part trading that Sheldon announced?

 

If your argument against token systems is that it allows players to "farm" for them and quickly get Prime parts.

Well, trading is going to allow players to get Prime gear much faster than any token system could.

[Maesz]

If they didn't want the use of RNG in the void, they should have build up the token system instead of throwing all sort of thing in the trade.

[Zaresin]

For people still reading.

 

What do you think of the Void part trading that Sheldon announced?

 

If your argument against token systems is that it allows players to "farm" for them and quickly get Prime parts.

Well, trading is going to allow players to get Prime gear much faster than any token system could.

 

I agree....I'm....I honestly am gonna sit back and see on this one.  I'm not ecstatic about it that is for sure.  I think prime access just became pointless completely.

[Luminati07]

I agree....I'm....I honestly am gonna sit back and see on this one.  I'm not ecstatic about it that is for sure.  I think prime access just became pointless completely.

Even though I hate Prime Access, I'm not so sure it'll be completely pointless.

 

I'm more worried about how exploitative the Prime prices are going to be when new gear is released.

Let's assume Loki Prime is next, just imagine how much people are going to be selling his parts for on day 1.

 

Not even going to touch on how Prime gear is cheaper than their normal versions in terms of plat.

Talk about unintuitive Market value.

[Zaresin]

Even though I hate Prime Access, I'm not so sure it'll be completely pointless.

 

I'm more worried about how exploitative the Prime prices are going to be when new gear is released.

Let's assume Loki Prime is next, just imagine how much people are going to be selling his parts for on day 1.

 

Not even going to touch on how Prime gear is cheaper than their normal versions in terms of plat.

Talk about unintuitive Market value.

 

I agree with you....won't really know till the market stabilizes....unfort for the foreseeable future I think we are going to see that you can buy two complete prime frames and one weapon for five bucks. 

[Brasten]

My fear is this is going to go Diablo 3 on us. That DE will have no incentive to work on the the faulty drop system and just lean on the crutch of a player driven free market with 0 oversight or tools. Actually DE will have every reason to make the drop rates far worse then they are now and hide behind the shield of "you can trade for that."

Edited February 20, 2014 by Brasten

[Zaresin]

My fear is this is going to go Diablo 3 on us. That DE will have no incentive to work on the the faulty drop system and just lean on the crutch of a player driven free market with 0 oversight or tools. Actually DE will have every reason to make the drop rates far worse then they are now and hide behind the shield of "you can trade for that."

 

That is my concern as well

[Luminati07]

My fear is this is going to go Diablo 3 on us. That DE will have no incentive to work on the the faulty drop system and just lean on the crutch of a player driven free market with 0 oversight or tools. Actually DE will have every reason to make the drop rates far worse then they are now and hide behind the shield of "you can trade for that."

That is my concern as well.

 

Definitely seems to be geared towards that now more than ever.

Just gonna have to wait and see how it goes.

 

I'm not holding my breath for DE to actually find a solution to the atrocious RNG.

[Loswaith]

My fear is this is going to go Diablo 3 on us. That DE will have no incentive to work on the the faulty drop system and just lean on the crutch of a player driven free market with 0 oversight or tools. Actually DE will have every reason to make the drop rates far worse then they are now and hide behind the shield of "you can trade for that."

Unfortunatly that mentality is already starting to bleed through with mods as it stands.  Since the trading of mods was added nothing has been changed with how/where mods drop.  Rare mods on rare spawns are still within the system, and RNG rewarding the same prize (be it mods or bleuprints) on multiple consecutive defence waves (ie 3+ times of the same reward) or other mission completions is still quite common within the system.

 

Unfortunatly now with prime trading you dont need to ever play the game to get them.  A bonus of a token system is at some point you need to have played the game to have the tokens (even if it is before the item itself is released) to get the result.

 

The prime access I always saw more as a way for new players to 'buy' into the game and get a good collection of things, much like founders did eairly on.

[Luminati07]

Unfortunatly now with prime trading you dont need to ever play the game to get them.  A bonus of a token system is at some point you need to have played the game to have the tokens (even if it is before the item itself is released) to get the result.

Exactly.

 

Prime trading essentially allows all players to bypass a TONNE of content that Warframe has to offer (although, it's mostly just grind)

 

I'm all for reducing grinding in Warframe. But, when that reduction is basically just an outright removal (in theory), that's when I start disagreeing.

 

Tokens reduce grind, are fair to the player, but still require some semblance of effort to accumulate. Not this nonsense that we have right now which is spend $x and just buy everything.

[Killerdude8]

Exactly.

 

Prime trading essentially allows all players to bypass a TONNE of content that Warframe has to offer (although, it's mostly just grind)

 

I'm all for reducing grinding in Warframe. But, when that reduction is basically just an outright removal (in theory), that's when I start disagreeing.

 

Tokens reduce grind, are fair to the player, but still require some semblance of effort to accumulate. Not this nonsense that we have right now which is spend $x and just buy everything.

You DO understand that the Prime Parts being traded come from SOMEWHERE, Right?

 

It's not like the magical Prime fairy comes by and places Prime Parts under the pillows of these well behaved Girls and Boys.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

You DO understand that the Prime Parts being traded come from SOMEWHERE, Right?

 

It's not like the magical Prime fairy comes by and places Prime Parts under the pillows of these well behaved Girls and Boys.

However most people who have farmed for X or Y in the void will have a large surplus of parts, and they might eventually be used up, but until that happens people are more than happy to try and sell their 20+ bronco prime barrels or whatever.

 

And now a new player never has to go to the void. Think about that. If they buy $10 worth of plat, they could buy quite a few primes, sell those, buy more, sell those... and so on.

[Luminati07]

You DO understand that the Prime Parts being traded come from SOMEWHERE, Right?

 

It's not like the magical Prime fairy comes by and places Prime Parts under the pillows of these well behaved Girls and Boys.

Oh, you're absolutely right. I thought Prime gear just appeared out of nowhere, my mistake.

 

Sarcasm aside, it doesn't matter if players still need to run the void.

It creates a horrible imbalance between player fairness.

 

One player runs the Void legitimately, while another buys his way to the superior weaponry.

One deals with atrocious RNG, one deals with no RNG.

 

A token system is fair to everybody, it puts everybody on equal ground.

[Killerdude8]

Oh, you're absolutely right. I thought Prime gear just appeared out of nowhere, my mistake.

 

Sarcasm aside, it doesn't matter if players still need to run the void.

It creates a horrible imbalance between player fairness.

 

One player runs the Void legitimately, while another buys his way to the superior weaponry.

One deals with atrocious RNG, one deals with no RNG.

 

A token system is fair to everybody, it puts everybody on equal ground.

But it's fairness is determined COMPLETELY 110% by the Players CHOICE, Nobody is forcing ANYONE to buy or trade for Prime Parts from others, Nobody at all.

 

If player A wants to skip the grind and trade some mods or platinum for that part they've been trying to farm for the past who knows how long, LET THEM.

If player B doesn't want to trade and has more fun Farming for the Prime Part, LET THEM.

 

More power to the players is a good thing.

 

 

But yes, a Token System would be amazing, I will not deny that.

[Luminati07]

But it's fairness is determined COMPLETELY 110% by the Players CHOICE, Nobody is forcing ANYONE to buy or trade for Prime Parts from others, Nobody at all.

 

If player A wants to skip the grind and trade some mods or platinum for that part they've been trying to farm for the past who knows how long, LET THEM.

If player B doesn't want to trade and has more fun Farming for the Prime Part, LET THEM.

 

More power to the players is a good thing.

 

 

But yes, a Token System would be amazing, I will not deny that.

Still going to have to disagree with you. Respectfully, of course.

 

I'll never feel like a flat out bypass of content is a good idea. Especially when that game has as little content as Warframe.

 

I understand that some players don't want to deal with grind, some players simply don't have the time due to work or study restraints.

However, a bypass of content isn't the way to go, in my opinion.

 

For F2P games, a way to accelerate the process is fine (xp boosters, drop rate boosters etc etc), but I simply can't agree with any 100% bypasses of content.

 

Prime trading just came at a horrible time, tbh.

Warframe simply doesn't have enough content to sustain itself if players can bypass 50+% of the game (almost 100% of the game if you exploited the Legendary Cores)

 

I want to use pretty much any other MMO as an example.

Obviously, the comparison isn't totally fair, seeing as MMORPGs are more geared towards players with more time on their hands, but, it still holds some merit.

 

Most MMORPG games are about endgame. Now, imagine if any player could instantly get the best weapons and items in the game (assuming no PvP exists)

Do I think that is fair? Definitely not.

 

Now, if there was a way for them to accelerate the process (such as xp boosters), I'm fine with that. (Though, not in AAA sub based MMORPGs)

 

All in all, I just flat out will never agree with complete content bypasses.

Sure, it gets the money for DE, but in the end, it's not going to do them any favours.

 

Players will buy all their Prime gear, then find they have absolutely nothing to progress towards (gamers love progression these days), then they stop playing.

 

DE should be thinking of ways to sustain their playerbase, not have players who will buy plat once or twice, then quit.

[Loswaith]

But it's fairness is determined COMPLETELY 110% by the Players CHOICE, Nobody is forcing ANYONE to buy or trade for Prime Parts from others, Nobody at all.

 

If player A wants to skip the grind and trade some mods or platinum for that part they've been trying to farm for the past who knows how long, LET THEM.

If player B doesn't want to trade and has more fun Farming for the Prime Part, LET THEM.

 

More power to the players is a good thing.

 

 

But yes, a Token System would be amazing, I will not deny that.

While it is a players choice, there are only bad options; you buy it or deal with RNG and drop system that doesnt work well (technically bad/buggy RNG is forcing people to buy/trade for things).

 

Paying for it means you leave yourself with little long term goals, grinding it means you have to deal with RNG potentially wasting huge amounts of time and potentially end up buying it anyway because of simply being unlucky (be it with key drops or part drops).

 

The token system gives everyone a third option, a balanced (for all players) risk for reward system for playing the game.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Loswaith