What Everyone Actually Means When They Say 'token System'?

[Luminati07]

While it is a players choice, there are only bad options; you buy it or deal with RNG and drop system that doesnt work well (technically bad/buggy RNG is forcing people to buy/trade for things).

 

Paying for it means you leave yourself with little long term goals, grinding it means you have to deal with RNG potentially wasting huge amounts of time and potentially end up buying it anyway because of simply being unlucky (be it with key drops or part drops).

 

The token system gives everyone a third option, a balanced (for all players) risk for reward system for playing the game.

Don't need to add anything to this.

Spot on.

[Arlayn]

So you want me to spend tokens... to buy a dakra Prime... Tokens... for a dakra prime... You realize you just told me to get tokens... TO SPEND... ON DAKRA PRIME... WHY!? Why in the sol system would ANY SANE HUMAN BEING spend tokens, or want to gain tokens to spend... ON DAKRA... Dakra should be a luxury drop that is controlled by RNG. Same with Paris Prime... Same with Sicarus prime, and Burston prime. None of those weapons are as worth  it as the more OP weapons like Braton Prime, Reaper Prime, Glaive Prime, Boar Prime, fang, or Orthos prime. There is far too many primes that should NEVER be a token bought reward. It would render a token system useless with very little choices to pick from. Why would I want tokens? If a token system is added there better be a way to sell that stuff so I can buy it instead of wasting time in some high level location where I DO NOT BENEFIT AT ALL from being there... because the location is so high level I literally cannot even bring 1 item that is low level... to level it. So why bother?

 

The problem with Token systems is that they require you to work hard, and get a reward in a VERY SLOW TIME PERIOD... Infact the time it would take me to get the tokens needed I probably would be bored half way through, and quit the  game... Like I did with DC Universe... I don't have the patience to do insanely hard missions for some tokens, and get no reward at all in-between (such as leveling stuff), and have a high chance of losing. Not worth it at all... better off quitting the game. Players should be able to benefit through out. 24/7 from everything. Every little detail. Hell I should get stuff just from killing 10,000 enemies in a single game. The Token system is just not a welcoming system, and too painful to deal with. People will be quitting before they ever reach that token goal by the hundreds if not thousands...

[Luminati07]

So you want me to spend tokens... to buy a dakra Prime... Tokens... for a dakra prime... You realize you just told me to get tokens... TO SPEND... ON DAKRA PRIME... WHY!? Why in the sol system would ANY SANE HUMAN BEING spend tokens, or want to gain tokens to spend... ON DAKRA... Dakra should be a luxury drop that is controlled by RNG. Same with Paris Prime... Same with Sicarus prime, and Burston prime. None of those weapons are as worth  it as the more OP weapons like Braton Prime, Reaper Prime, Glaive Prime, Boar Prime, fang, or Orthos prime. There is far too many primes that should NEVER be a token bought reward. It would render a token system useless with very little choices to pick from. Why would I want tokens? If a token system is added there better be a way to sell that stuff so I can buy it instead of wasting time in some high level location where I DO NOT BENEFIT AT ALL from being there... because the location is so high level I literally cannot even bring 1 item that is low level... to level it. So why bother?

 

The problem with Token systems is that they require you to work hard, and get a reward in a VERY SLOW TIME PERIOD... Infact the time it would take me to get the tokens needed I probably would be bored half way through, and quit the  game... Like I did with DC Universe... I don't have the patience to do insanely hard missions for some tokens, and get no reward at all in-between (such as leveling stuff), and have a high chance of losing. Not worth it at all... better off quitting the game. Players should be able to benefit through out. 24/7 from everything. Every little detail. Hell I should get stuff just from killing 10,000 enemies in a single game. The Token system is just not a welcoming system, and too painful to deal with. People will be quitting before they ever reach that token goal by the hundreds if not thousands...

I just.....what??

[Arlayn]

I just.....what??

Token system in a nut shell... its evil, and makes games unplayable...

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Token system in a nut shell... its evil, and makes games unplayable...

Not if it is simply a backstop. We CAN have both RNG and a token system working hand in hand.

 

And no, your gachapon thing isn't the right type of token system.

Edited February 21, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Arlayn]

Not if it is simply a backstop.

 

And no, your gachapon thing isn't the right type of token system.

I would LOVE A GACHAPON!!! That would be the most bad to the bone thing ever in Warframe... now THAT is a token system done correctly!

[Luminati07]

I would LOVE A GACHAPON!!! That would be the most bad to the bone thing ever in Warframe... now THAT is a token system done correctly!

Hang on, aren't Gachapon those capsule machines that give random payouts??

 

Are you serious?

If I'm wrong, excuse me.

 

But, if I'm right, and you want to fix RNG with more RNG, then that is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I would LOVE A GACHAPON!!! That would be the most bad to the bone thing ever in Warframe... now THAT is a token system done correctly!

No, it's a token system done wrong, assuming you want to use tokens to give you what you want. Random chance? Sure it's ok, but I want a token system to allow me to get X prime part after a million runs. Not another shot of RNG. F*** RNG already.

 

Hang on, aren't Gachapon those capsule machines that give random payouts??

 

Are you serious?

If I'm wrong, excuse me.

 

But, if I'm right, and you want to fix RNG with more RNG, then that is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard.

+1.

[Zaresin]

Token system in a nut shell... its evil, and makes games unplayable...

The idea of the token system is actually a good one, unfortunately many players treat it as a means to an end making it more about efficiency than an alternative to RNG (game companies do this as well). Instead of treating it as an alternative loot system it becomes a strict time wall which makes one side like it, and the other side hate it.

[Zaresin]

The main reason I hate token systems is because I have not personally seen a token system implemented that the majority of players did not treat as a rush grind. I like the ideas that mix the two as I think if we had both options side by side one would dominate the other. I think if we had tokens for blueprints and RNG for the parts with the option to buy the parts at an expensive cost of tokens would have been adequate (as long as you are getting tokens per run that is).

I just hate seeing players mindlessly grind out tokens which is what I was afraid of happening. I've spent too many years doing that.

[Dyxis]

My understanding of a token system is doing a mission or a set of missions(quest, dungeon etc.) multiple times and accumulating a unique form of "value"(Tokens) that can be used anyway you wish with the corresponding shop, vendor, or even a forge that applies to that mission.

 

Now the amount of "value" that you can earn is dictated by many variables, these variables are based on the quality of each run. Time could be one variable, the faster you complete the mission the better your score(or maybe grading like they did in sonic?) will yielding more of the "value"

 

Well that's what I think a token system is, sorry if this doesn't make sense... Tried to keep this as generic as possible.

[Zaresin]

My understanding of a token system is doing a mission or a set of missions(quest, dungeon etc.) multiple times and accumulating a unique form of "value"(Tokens) that can be used anyway you wish with the corresponding shop, vendor, or even a forge that applies to that mission.

Now the amount of "value" that you can earn is dictated by many variables, these variables are based on the quality of each run. Time could be one variable, the faster you complete the mission the better your score(or maybe grading like they did in sonic?) will yielding more of the "value"

Well that's what I think a token system is, sorry if this doesn't make sense... Tried to keep this as generic as possible.

Your understanding is correct unfortunately game companies have made it a replacement for RNG making tokens their own time wall. Rather than making it compliment RNG, it replaces it in a lot of games and you get the rush grind mentality that you see in games like wow (before I left after cata, it started in wrath) and FFXIV with their tombstone system.

Well if you want to be more accurate in wow, the token system originally started with their faction system. Wasn't abused till it was used to help new players catch up in gear by offering tokens for the previous seasons tier gear. Then in cata it included the current gear, with top gear requiring lowest tier then you needed to upgrade. Not sure what it is now, game companies tend to be schizophrenic.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Zaresin

[Luminati07]

Your understanding is correct unfortunately game companies have made it a replacement for RNG making tokens their own time wall. Rather than making it compliment RNG, 

I agree here.

Tokens should act as a supplement to RNG and vice-versa.

 

RNG isn't a necessarily a bad thing, but when a game has almost complete reliance on it, that's when it starts to irritate people.

 

In regards to grinding, no matter what systems are in place, players will grind it out to get parts the fastest.

Most MMORPGs put a weekly cap on tokens(something that I disagree with), and that serves its purpose.

 

I'm not familiar with how World of Warcraft worked, so I can only speak from an FFXIV perspective here.

The token gear in FFXIV could not be obtained through RNG, so that was a huge factor in grinding out the Tomestones.

 

I think that would be a pretty decent stepping stone in making tokens more appealing.

If every single piece of gear that is obtainable with tokens was also available through RNG, that would lessen the grind quite a bit, to be honest.

 

It's not as simple as I like to make it out to be, but at this point (especially now that it's apparent DE doesn't care about players getting Prime gear quickly), I think it's a perfect time to overhaul RNG and introduce a token system.

[Zaresin]

I agree here.

Tokens should act as a supplement to RNG and vice-versa.

 

RNG isn't a necessarily a bad thing, but when a game has almost complete reliance on it, that's when it starts to irritate people.

 

In regards to grinding, no matter what systems are in place, players will grind it out to get parts the fastest.

Most MMORPGs put a weekly cap on tokens(something that I disagree with), and that serves its purpose.

 

I'm not familiar with how World of Warcraft worked, so I can only speak from an FFXIV perspective here.

The token gear in FFXIV could not be obtained through RNG, so that was a huge factor in grinding out the Tomestones.

 

I think that would be a pretty decent stepping stone in making tokens more appealing.

If every single piece of gear that is obtainable with tokens was also available through RNG, that would lessen the grind quite a bit, to be honest.

 

It's not as simple as I like to make it out to be, but at this point (especially now that it's apparent DE doesn't care about players getting Prime gear quickly), I think it's a perfect time to overhaul RNG and introduce a token system.

 

As much as I hate tokens, I think if they were used to compliment RNG, tokens would be an acceptable implementation to me.  

[Arlayn]

No, it's a token system done wrong, assuming you want to use tokens to give you what you want. Random chance? Sure it's ok, but I want a token system to allow me to get X prime part after a million runs. Not another shot of RNG. F*** RNG already.

 

+1.

Do the Gachapon like Gundam SD Capsule fighter.

 

Take different sets of items in 6s and stick them in different machines, and then take the most rare and highly wanted ones and stick them in the most expensive machines. That people can either use the tokens for a chance to get the thing they want along side 5 other not so rare thing for a cheap price, or spend more on a machine that has 6 highly desired items, possibly even fully built versions of said item. Don't bring up the lore issue because were already space ninjas playing children's card games in space... in he future... So don't even get me started there.

 

I prefer making the Prime parts fun to obtain... not painful. ugh a token system would be like a kick to the groin. Its not a satisfying system. Its slow. VERY slow. No one wants to waste time doing hard missions just to get a few tokens. People would rather have fun in-between, or at least be getting something worthwhile along side the wait of collecting tokens.

 

Basically Warframe does not have the standard components to even GAIN a token system there is no in-between reward from this game. Infact a lot of games that deploy token systems do it so poorly, and expect us to deal with the in-between work. Now if Warhammer 40k Space Marine had a token system instead of making me do the impossible for all the armor parts in the game damn I would definitely do it, because its worth it. Plus Space marine has a more exciting gameplay where you ARE the killing machine. Tenno not so much... They are a tad bit too squishy, and the enemies don't really light you up for a fun fight to get the tokens. You will mostly be fighting enemies that do an overabundance of damage, and are sponges, or have insanely high defense. Now if Zephy could actually reflect missiles, or some enemies required special tactics to kill them not just outright shooting them, and I mean REQUIRE no other way to kill them. Then I could see a token system being reasonable. Maybe if after Melee 2.0 is perfected, after focus MAYBE THEN could the token system be implemented without it boring people to death, and slowing the game down as badly as Stamina nerf did.

 

If I am going to be collecting tokens slowly to get something I better be having fun in the process in doing so. Heck give us slot machines to gamble with the tokens. Now that would be interesting. Something fun to do with the tokens to double, or lose it all. Don't just add worthless tokens that take forever to collect to get anything good.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Arlayn

[Karela2]

Your token system is quite good (in a way, to by-pass the RNG system) but as matto said the problem is about lore. The problem is that this game isn`t quite compatible with the tokens ideea because you really can`t compare FF VI with Warframe. One is a sub, other is F2P; other is well... fantasy, other is sci-fi shooting game; one is MMORPG the other is a co-op game.

So, is easy to "throw" a token system in a fantasy game because it fits the theme, but I don`t think I ever heard of a co-op shooting game with a token system! It doesn`t sound quite silly? "Co-op shooting game with token system"?

Edited February 21, 2014 by Karela2

[Varzy]

I made a topic elsewhere, but why not make prime parts themselves the tokens? Implement a system to recycle them for the part you want, with higher tier rewards needing much more input than lower tier rewards, thus encouraging people to actually just run high tier games.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Do the Gachapon like Gundam SD Capsule fighter.

Again, no, F*** no. I don't want RNG in a token system. With a token system I want it to be the thing that makes sure it only takes X runs before I'm guaranteed the part. Your silly gachapon system ruins the entire point. Which is why it sucks, and always will.

 

People want a way to make sure they don't get stuck at RNG's mercy, your system doesn't do that.

 

Again, the token system can supplement the current system by simply changing what the primes sell for.

[Brasten]

I made a topic elsewhere, but why not make prime parts themselves the tokens? Implement a system to recycle them for the part you want, with higher tier rewards needing much more input than lower tier rewards, thus encouraging people to actually just run high tier games.

This is more or less how Team Fortress 2's Token/Crafting system works. Most people focus on TF2s Hats, but behind that is the Crafting system for various new weapons. As I've post many times before it is a very workable system. Now, the major difference is that TF2 "Tokens" aren't grind-able they are time gated based on time played. They are handed our every so often to player and randomly. Since they are random weapon handouts you could end up with the Weapon you are seeking to craft OR it becomes part of process toward the item you want. It either becomes Scrap (a catch all token) or a part of your forward crafting.

The other aspect of TF2s crafting system are "Seed" items, things that can't be crafted. In TF2 these are the first batch of Alternate Weapons (Backburner, Natasha, Direct Hit, Scottsih Resistance, Huntsman, Jaratie, Deadwringer, etc.) These gate most, from scratch, Weapon crafting and are only RNG, Trade, or Store baught. They can be bypassed with a lucky drop of another Weapon further along your crafting process, but again RNG is a factor.

Valve even has a cosmetic Trap in the crating process to bleed out the Tokens/Scrap. Making Hats. By creating randomized cosmetics (which aren't even the "best") that have no direct impact on game balance Scrap is sinked out system. By quitely fostering the Hat obsession in a way Valve keeps their "Token" system from being over loaded and having too much ista-crafting when new Recipes are released.

RNG with Tokens backstop, in TF2, a system that demonstrably works, and also produces piles of Hats as a byproduct. I can truely think of worse arrangements (Dungeon Keeper Mobile, Diablo 3, Star Trek: Trexels).

Your token system is quite good (in a way, to by-pass the RNG system) but as matto said the problem is about lore.

What Lore? There is no lore. DE is making things up as they go and retconing heavily to make stuff fit. Here is the "Lore" to date: Wake up get told to fight, fight two factions, get some keys go to the Void and get some shiny "old" guns, go to wreaks and fight space undead, get some glowey balls. Don't find any answers about your "lost" memory, just more and more weapons to slaughter more and more things.

Like magical Orokin Cells, Forma, Catalysts, and Reactors tokens can easily be spun into equivalent "Space Magic" fabrication/transmutation. "Lore" wise the Forma already do this, by letting you "Space Magic" random bits of stuff into whole Rooms or Weapons. As long as we walk past the idea this game has a hard Science base and is either super soft or just out right Fantasy we can move right to "Space Wizards did it" as an excuse for oddities, hang a hat on it, and call it a day. And lets not talk about the Slot Machine that is Mod Transmutation itself. How does THAT work in "Lore"?

Edited February 21, 2014 by Brasten

[Zaresin]

Your token system is quite good (in a way, to by-pass the RNG system) but as matto said the problem is about lore. The problem is that this game isn`t quite compatible with the tokens ideea because you really can`t compare FF VI with Warframe. One is a sub, other is F2P; other is well... fantasy, other is sci-fi shooting game; one is MMORPG the other is a co-op game.

So, is easy to "throw" a token system in a fantasy game because it fits the theme, but I don`t think I ever heard of a co-op shooting game with a token system! It doesn`t sound quite silly? "Co-op shooting game with token system"?

 

I can't think of any instance that required tokens for lore and i've had ten years of experience dealing with token systems.  The only place I've seen them lore based was when it was factored into tokens and used to buy faction based gear that that faction wears.  

[Varzy]

This is more or less how Team Fortress 2's Token/Crafting system works. Most people focus on TF2s Hats, but behind that is the Crafting system for various new weapons. As I've post many times before it is a very workable system. Now, the major difference is that TF2 "Tokens" aren't grind-able they are time gated based on time played. They are handed our every so often to player and randomly. Since they are random weapon handouts you could end up with the Weapon you are seeking to craft OR it becomes part of process toward the item you want. It either becomes Scrap (a catch all token) or a part of your forward crafting.

The other aspect of TF2s crafting system are "Seed" items, things that can't be crafted. In TF2 these are the first batch of Alternate Weapons (Backburner, Natasha, Direct Hit, Scottsih Resistance, Huntsman, Jaratie, Deadwringer, etc.) These gate most, from scratch, Weapon crafting and are only RNG, Trade, or Store baught. They can be bypassed with a lucky drop of another Weapon further along your crafting process, but again RNG is a factor.

Valve even has a cosmetic Trap in the crating process to bleed out the Tokens/Scrap. Making Hats. By creating randomized cosmetics (which aren't even the "best") that have no direct impact on game balance Scrap is sinked out system. By quitely fostering the Hat obsession in a way Valve keeps their "Token" system from being over loaded and having too much ista-crafting when new Recipes are released.

RNG with Tokens backstop, in TF2, a system that demonstrably works, and also produces piles of Hats as a byproduct. I can truely think of worse arrangements (Dungeon Keeper Mobile, Diablo 3, Star Trek: Trexels).

 

 

Ah, I see, it fits with what I was musing about over in https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/183458-thoughts-on-a-clan-research-style-prime-part-token-system/. Using prime components/bp to craft tokens using the Foundy could act as a throttle, and other things could serve as DE's bleed, especially if the tokens can be used for more than just Prime goods, like cosmetics (syndanas, animations, maybe limited palettes?) or as Crafting material.

 

I'm reminded of Forma, and the many uses it has. Tokens for Prime goods should be given similar diversity in use.

[Naftal]

We can trade prime parts now. No point making it even easier obtaining those items.

[WhisperByte]

We can trade prime parts now. No point making it even easier obtaining those items.

The point of this thread was that there should have been RNG+Tokens system instead of RNG+Prime Trading

[LukeAura]

Your token system is quite good (in a way, to by-pass the RNG system) but as matto said the problem is about lore. The problem is that this game isn`t quite compatible with the tokens ideea because you really can`t compare FF VI with Warframe. One is a sub, other is F2P; other is well... fantasy, other is sci-fi shooting game; one is MMORPG the other is a co-op game.

So, is easy to "throw" a token system in a fantasy game because it fits the theme, but I don`t think I ever heard of a co-op shooting game with a token system! It doesn`t sound quite silly? "Co-op shooting game with token system"?

Nugget's system fits in with Lore. Calling it Orokin Salvage, boom(.gif) lore fit. Get enough pieces of an incomplete item and incomplete information on it together and you can reverse engineer that component. 

Also, there aren't a whole lot of them out their with an rpg level and style of loot and drops like warframe. No co-op shooter has ever had a Token System because it's never had a viable reason for one, Warframe does.

And the only reason it sounds silly is because it's never been done before. 

Thanks for defining the token system nugget! It's a pretty good one. 

[Luminati07]

Your token system is quite good (in a way, to by-pass the RNG system) but as matto said the problem is about lore. The problem is that this game isn`t quite compatible with the tokens ideea because you really can`t compare FF VI with Warframe. One is a sub, other is F2P; other is well... fantasy, other is sci-fi shooting game; one is MMORPG the other is a co-op game.

So, is easy to "throw" a token system in a fantasy game because it fits the theme, but I don`t think I ever heard of a co-op shooting game with a token system! It doesn`t sound quite silly? "Co-op shooting game with token system"?

This, pretty much (thanks)

 

The weapons have to come from somewhere, there's no reason why the Tenno aren't thinking of ways to manufacture the parts by themselves, rather than relying on finding intact pieces.

 

They find damaged components and restore them.

 

Hell, if you want to go full circle, make a new room in the Dojo

 

The "Orokin Forge".

This would be the token "market". 

Here is where you exchange the Orokin Salvage for parts. You could also make this the place where you build Prime gear as well (instead of the foundry), but that's just an afterthought by me.

 

Another way to do it would introduce Darvo as the merchant (Already suggested, I think)

Darvo could trade his stockpiled Prime gear for salvage.

 

We don't know what he needs it for (New Darvo mission chain, anyone?)

 

Now that DE royally #*($%%@ up Prime gear. The only way for a token system to work is for Prime trading to be removed. 

(which it won't. DE has too big of a track record in releasing S#&$ and never looking back)