Luminati07 Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 If anyone's still actually reading, I created a new edit (though, it's pretty short) in my OP. It's pretty rough, so I'm going to refine it soon. Sorry for the double post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePresident777 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 (edited) Hey everyone, RNG topics are constant on the Warframe forums, and one thing is almost guaranteed to pop up at some point in the discussion, that is the mention of a 'token system'. However, the majority of these posts don't actually detail what that is, or what that particular player means when they say it. There's plenty of different token systems out there, and for me, Final Fantasy XIV does it right. In FF XIV, running high level dungeons grant two things (depending on the dungeon) 1. Tomestones of Philosophy 2. Tomestones of Mythology These are used to purchase endgame gear such as Darklight armour. Example: Darklight chest armour costs 825 Philosophy tomes. Running a dungeon will grant you 100 of these 'tokens'. So, that's 9 runs for you to get the most expensive piece of Darklight armour. It might sound like a lot, but 9 runs is absolutely fine if you are guaranteed to get the armour you're looking for. Now, Mythology Tomestones act in the same way, but you get far less from a dungeon, somewhere around ~40. These Tomes are used to buy very high level endgame gear. However, dungeons will also drop their own unique gear and accessories. Meaning, you are dealing with RNG and loot rolls while you are in the dungeon, but you still have the ability to purchase armour with the Tomes you get upon completion. Now, why am I talking about FF XIV? Because that's the type of system I would like to see in Warframe. Example: You've just finished doing 20 runs of a T3 Exterminate for a Dakra Blade, with no luck. Each time you finish a run, you are getting 3 'Orokin Salvage' (Random name). You can go to a section in the market (or maybe even a room in the dojo) to exchange this salvage for parts. So, while you run Void missions, you can still get lucky and receive the part you are looking for, but if you don't get it, you can go to this store once you get enough salvage. However, like in FF XIV, I think there should be 2 types of tokens. Tier I and II Void missions grant "damaged Orokin Salvage", while Tier III grants "Orokin Salvage". Damaged Salvage can only be used to purchase the lower rarity items such as Chassis (or whatever the Ember Prime common equivalent is) The tier III salvage can be used to buy the rarer items such as the Dakra Blade. This prevents players from just stomping through tier I missions and getting tonnes of salvage to buy everything. Now, obviously Final Fantasy XIV has a LOT more content than Warframe, so it'd need to be tweaked. But, to me, that's the kind of 'token system' that I would like to see in Warframe. That would be a massive step in improving the game (imo), the system is completely fair to the player unlike the current RNG systems. That's my interpretation of the perfect token system, but I'm interested in hearing what everyone else's idea of what a 'token system' actually defines. There's plenty of types out there. There's ones that let you sell parts for tokens, ones that let you use tokens to gamble on items (Please, for the love of God, no!), etc, etc. So, all in all, there's 2 questions I want to ask 1. What do you think of the FF XIV token system being implemented in Warframe? 2. What is your interpretation of a token system when a player mentions it on the forums? Let me put one thing into perspective I remember someone replying to a token system thread where they said that it just gives players the ability to grind for a couple of days and own everything. Let me put this into perspective.\ Let me toss out some random numbers and costs for the purpose of this thread Tier 1 = 1 damaged Orokin Salvage Tier 2 = 2 damaged Orokin Salvage Tier 3 = 3 Orokin Salvage Common parts = 10 Damaged Orokin Salvage Uncommon parts = 20 Damaged Orokin Salvage Rare parts = 30 Orokin Salvage I'm generalising and I could have the rarities wrong, so bear with me. Warframes Mag Prime - 4 Parts Mag Prime Chassis - Common Mag Prime Helmet - Common Mag Prime Systems - Rare Mag Prime Blueprint - Uncommon Total salvage needed - 40 damaged, 30 normal. Frost Prime - 4 Parts Frost Prime Chassis - Common Frost Prime Helmet - Common Frost Prime Systems - Rare Frost Prime Blueprint - Uncommon Total salvage needed - 40 damaged, 30 normal. Ember Prime - 4 Parts Ember Prime Chassis - Common Ember Prime Helmet - Common Ember Prime Systems - Rare Ember Prime Blueprint - Uncommon Total salvage needed - 40 damaged, 30 normal. Weapons Braton Prime - 3 Parts Braton Prime Barrel - Common Braton Prime Stock - Uncommon Braton Prime Receiver - Rare Total salvage needed - 30 damaged, 30 normal. Burston Prime Burston Prime Barrel - Common Burston Prime Stock - Uncommon Burston Prime Receiver - Rare Total salvage needed - 30 damaged, 30 normal Boar Prime Boar Prime Barrel - Common Boar Prime Stock - Uncommon Boar Prime Receiver - Rare Total salvage needed - 30 damaged, 30 normal Latron Prime Latron Prime Barrel - Common Latron Prime Stock - Uncommon Latron Prime Receiver - Rare Total salvage needed - 30 damaged, 30 normal Paris Prime Paris Prime Upper Limb - Common Paris Prime Lower Limb - Common Paris Prime Grip - Uncommon Paris Prime String - Rare Total salvage needed - 40 damaged, 30 normal Bronco Prime Bronco Prime Barrel - Uncommon Bronco Prime Receiver - Rare Total salvage needed - 20 damaged, 30 normal Sicarus Prime Sicarus Prime Barrel - Uncommon Sicarus Prime Receiver - Rare Total salvage needed - 20 damaged, 30 normal Dakra Prime Dakra Prime Handle - Uncommon Dakra Prime Blade - Rare Total salvage needed - 20 damaged, 30 normal Fang Prime Fang Prime Handle x2 - Common Fang Prime Blade x2- Rare Total salvage needed - 40 damaged, 60 normal Glaive Prime Glaive Prime Blade x2 - Uncommon Glaive Prime Disc - Rare Total salvage needed - 40 damaged, 30 normal Orthos Prime Orthos Prime Handle - Common Orthos Prime blade x2 - Rare Total salvage needed - 10 damaged, 60 normal Reaper Prime Reaper Prime Handle - Uncommon Reaper Prime Blade - Rare Total salvage needed - 20 damaged, 30 normal ______________________________________ This leaves with us a grand total of the following 450 Damaged Orokin Salvage 510 Orokin Salvage In other words, using optimal Void runs (T2 and T3), you would need the following (To buy every current part) 225 T2 runs 170 T3 runs As you can see, a token system in Warframe would NOT be a viable way for players to just grind out for a few days and get everything. It would be used for getting those few parts that just continue to elude you. Before someone mentions Prime Access and people who stockpile Tokens and just instantly buy anything that gets added. It's a fairly easy fix. When new Prime gear is added, don't add them to the 'token market' right away. Delay it by a couple of weeks, or even a month. This means people who want to buy Prime Access for Prime gear can do so without worrying about others stockpiling tokens and buying them instantly. When they are released, however, people can still try their hand at RNG until the new items are released on the markets. The only way for a token system to work. As of 22/2/14 Plus one major plus of a token system Seeing as DE has told us they don't care about players getting Prime gear quickly, a token system makes more sense than ever. However, the only way it's going to work now is if DE completely removes Prime trading. It can't work if players can simply go to trade chat and get everything they could possibly want. If you've seen my latest posts, you will already know that I absolutely @(*()$ loathe Prime trading in its current incarnation. It seems like nothing more than a band-aid for DE to shut up those who complain about RNG. I can personally speak for many individuals who hated RNG, we did not want a way to instantly skip all RNG, we wanted a system that was fair, but still required some semblance of effort on the player's part. This Prime trading nonsense requires no time dedication, no effort and no skill. It requires nothing. (or maybe a credit card if you don't want to play the market) ______________________ Now on to the other couple of things. Some other major benefits of introducing a token system like my one. 1. It gets rid of DE's ability to ninja nerf the drop tables and shuffle them around without telling the players. There are more than a few examples of DE doing sneaky S#&$ like this. When the drop tables were datamined, DE encrypted them after it was known that several Prime parts had a 0.67% drop rate. You can bet your &#! that when Ember/Glaive/Sicarus Prime came out, they had a similar drop rate as well. Something else DE did after the datamining was shuffle the void rewards around. This affected myself and many clan members. Basically, all the wiki information was wrong. I was running T3 Exterminates for a Dakra Blade for weeks (a good 100 runs), then DE (after like...2 @(*()$ months) decides to actually give some transparency on what missions drop what. Guess what? I was running the wrong @(*()$ mission because DE refused to give players any shred of information, and shift around the drop tables without informing the players. To me, this is one of the best things about a token system (and one that I am sure the devs know about, and are purposefully ignoring) It takes away the dev's ability to sneakily shuffle things around and nerf drop rates. Doesn't matter. The drop tables are still messed up even thought DE has had the time and tools to fix them. In fact, DE diluted the drop tables even further with credit caches while they are telling us that they are going to fix the drop tables. Scott's Warframe lesson of 2013 is that players will grind. Think about that Nobody would complain about RNG if on average, with no outliers, they got the items in a few runs, except for the people who like to feel special because they devoted their life to getting something that everyone wants but gave up on. And, those are terrible people so they don't matter. Edited February 22, 2014 by ThePresident777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaresin Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 This is more or less how Team Fortress 2's Token/Crafting system works. Most people focus on TF2s Hats, but behind that is the Crafting system for various new weapons. As I've post many times before it is a very workable system. Now, the major difference is that TF2 "Tokens" aren't grind-able they are time gated based on time played. They are handed our every so often to player and randomly. Since they are random weapon handouts you could end up with the Weapon you are seeking to craft OR it becomes part of process toward the item you want. It either becomes Scrap (a catch all token) or a part of your forward crafting. The other aspect of TF2s crafting system are "Seed" items, things that can't be crafted. In TF2 these are the first batch of Alternate Weapons (Backburner, Natasha, Direct Hit, Scottsih Resistance, Huntsman, Jaratie, Deadwringer, etc.) These gate most, from scratch, Weapon crafting and are only RNG, Trade, or Store baught. They can be bypassed with a lucky drop of another Weapon further along your crafting process, but again RNG is a factor. Valve even has a cosmetic Trap in the crating process to bleed out the Tokens/Scrap. Making Hats. By creating randomized cosmetics (which aren't even the "best") that have no direct impact on game balance Scrap is sinked out system. By quitely fostering the Hat obsession in a way Valve keeps their "Token" system from being over loaded and having too much ista-crafting when new Recipes are released. RNG with Tokens backstop, in TF2, a system that demonstrably works, and also produces piles of Hats as a byproduct. I can truely think of worse arrangements (Dungeon Keeper Mobile, Diablo 3, Star Trek: Trexels). What Lore? There is no lore. DE is making things up as they go and retconing heavily to make stuff fit. Here is the "Lore" to date: Wake up get told to fight, fight two factions, get some keys go to the Void and get some shiny "old" guns, go to wreaks and fight space undead, get some glowey balls. Don't find any answers about your "lost" memory, just more and more weapons to slaughter more and more things. Like magical Orokin Cells, Forma, Catalysts, and Reactors tokens can easily be spun into equivalent "Space Magic" fabrication/transmutation. "Lore" wise the Forma already do this, by letting you "Space Magic" random bits of stuff into whole Rooms or Weapons. As long as we walk past the idea this game has a hard Science base and is either super soft or just out right Fantasy we can move right to "Space Wizards did it" as an excuse for oddities, hang a hat on it, and call it a day. And lets not talk about the Slot Machine that is Mod Transmutation itself. How does THAT work in "Lore"? I see a "Space wizards did it" meme catching on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xhominid Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Your token system is quite good (in a way, to by-pass the RNG system) but as matto said the problem is about lore. The problem is that this game isn`t quite compatible with the tokens ideea because you really can`t compare FF VI with Warframe. One is a sub, other is F2P; other is well... fantasy, other is sci-fi shooting game; one is MMORPG the other is a co-op game. So, is easy to "throw" a token system in a fantasy game because it fits the theme, but I don`t think I ever heard of a co-op shooting game with a token system! It doesn`t sound quite silly? "Co-op shooting game with token system"? Vindictus is a FTP game with a token system(a HORRIBLE token system, but one nonetheless). I do believe Warframe can benefit with a token system as long as the price is fair for the items you are getting for it to the ratio of tokens you get from each Tower mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePresident777 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 A token system makes Warframe into a job which is great for gold farmers. Grind and end game are also good for gold farmers. End game is what people truly wish to play. If you put the end game behind grind, if you lock the fun behind the boredom, then some people will pay gold farmers to grind accounts up to the point where the game gets interesting. A deterministic drop system makes business more reliable for gold farmers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminati07 Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 (edited) as long as the price is fair for the items you are getting for it to the ratio of tokens you get from each Tower mission. This is the deciding factor. I've seen plenty of posts lately that are against token systems because they might have horrible prices. I think it's a pretty unfair argument to shut something down because it might have something wrong with it. As long as DE actually tests the token system and puts some thought into it, it would turn out great. If things are too cheap, tweak it as necessary. If things are too expensive, tweak it as necessary. *Edit* That being said, I do understand where those people are coming from. If a token system has some absurd prices that require dozens and dozens of runs for a single part (some games out there do this), that can turn out to bring far more frustration than RNG. (depending on the player) Edited February 23, 2014 by Nugget_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePresident777 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 (edited) This is the deciding factor. I've seen plenty of posts lately that are against token systems because they might have horrible prices. I think it's a pretty unfair argument to shut something down because it might have something wrong with it. As long as DE actually tests the token system and puts some thought into it, it would turn out great. If things are too cheap, tweak it as necessary. If things are too expensive, tweak it as necessary. You could say the same thing about RNG. The more you reduce the variability in an RNG based system, the closer it gets to being deterministic, like a token system. The drop rates can be terrible for any system. So, the token system is not the cure to your problem. What's more, it's liable to get worse because DE uses every major system change as a Trojan Nerf Horse. So, you can be sure that an improvement in one area will be followed with "balance" in another area. Edited February 23, 2014 by ThePresident777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(NSW)Omgwtfl9lbbl Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Your token system is quite good (in a way, to by-pass the RNG system) but as matto said the problem is about lore. The problem is that this game isn`t quite compatible with the tokens ideea because you really can`t compare FF VI with Warframe. One is a sub, other is F2P; other is well... fantasy, other is sci-fi shooting game; one is MMORPG the other is a co-op game. So, is easy to "throw" a token system in a fantasy game because it fits the theme, but I don`t think I ever heard of a co-op shooting game with a token system! It doesn`t sound quite silly? "Co-op shooting game with token system"? I don't think "Lore" is a valid argument in a game that requires you to spend 12 hours and an Orokin Cell to figure out how to successfully hold one pistol in your right hand, and then hold a second pistol in your left hand. Or in the case of the Dual Cestra, 72 hours to draw up plans to hold said pistols together, and another 24 hours to actually do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killerdude8 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Lore isn't a Valid argument in a Game that has no Lore. It's like Saying a Boat is important in the Middle of the Sahara desert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeAura Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Lore isn't a Valid argument in a Game that has no Lore. It's like Saying a Boat is important in the Middle of the Sahara desert. Well then I'm sure glad Warframe has more lore than the Sahara Desert has water. Granted it still has to be implemented but there is definitely a rich history behind this game. Saying lore does not count and that there is none is stifling the chance for it to happen. Nugget's system is passively adding lore to the game, think about it like that. You could say the same thing about RNG. The more you reduce the variability in an RNG based system, the closer it gets to being deterministic, like a token system. The drop rates can be terrible for any system. So, the token system is not the cure to your problem. RNG does have limited amounts of space. You can't have two items drop at once so the sum of all odds must total to 100. And as more prime items are added, odds of any 1 item further and further dilutes. RNG can't cover the increase of items like a token system can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminati07 Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 RNG does have limited amounts of space. You can't have two items drop at once so the sum of all odds must total to 100. And as more prime items are added, odds of any 1 item further and further dilutes. RNG can't cover the increase of items like a token system can. Exactly. With every single Prime update, the drop tables get worse. DE released the first band-aid, which was moving stuff to the Derelicts. (Something they said was going to be short term, but we'll see how long that holds up) Take the last update, for instance. Sicarus Prime - 3 parts Glaive Prime - 3 parts Ember Prime - 4 parts That on its own is a pretty hefty dilution already. Each update (next one is coming soon) for the Void is going to dilute everything even further. DE can add stuff to the derelicts all they want, it's not going to sort out the problem. What happens when the Derelict hits that point as well? Move stuff to boss missions? I hope DE isn't planning to use Prime trading as an excuse to leave RNG as it is. I really @(*()$ hope they aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePresident777 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 RNG does have limited amounts of space. You can't have two items drop at once so the sum of all odds must total to 100. And as more prime items are added, odds of any 1 item further and further dilutes. RNG can't cover the increase of items like a token system can. You could have 10 items in a drop list, each with equal probablility of dropping and it would be a vast improvement over what we have now if you were guaranteed a drop from the list of primes. In actuality, people are grinding a hundred missions to get one of three items even if they need three items to make another. They get 99 copies of the other 2 parts combined to every one of the third part. Those are sample numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePresident777 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I hope DE isn't planning to use Prime trading as an excuse to leave RNG as it is. I really @(*()$ hope they aren't. That I can agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePresident777 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Incidentally, we already have a token system in the form of credits and materials. It gives more freedom than RNG because credits and tokens are currently available from a variety of sources. But Oxium shows that it doesn't have to be that way. You can still get stuck grinding the same mission/map/enemy just to get the best drop rates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminati07 Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 Incidentally, we already have a token system in the form of credits and materials. It gives more freedom than RNG because credits and tokens are currently available from a variety of sources. But Oxium shows that it doesn't have to be that way. You can still get stuck grinding the same mission/map/enemy just to get the best drop rates. Not really sure if I'd call credits and materials a token system at all. I do understand the comparison, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerHappyWhiteGuy Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 I prefer this over prime tradeing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinNinja2.0 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 just no....why would it be damaged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeAura Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 just no....why would it be damaged? Grineer/Corpus incursions breaking things in the combat. The centuries of dust and neglect. Orokin panic attempt to prevent their greatest weapons from being used for evil/against them. It's an unfinished piece and therefore 'broken'. Pieces that were broken and damaged that needed repair but were never fixed before the Orokin got wiped out. And the 'damaged' is only a place holder. An example. You could use any adjective that puts the understanding of lesser and/or greater value to the token tiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminati07 Posted March 10, 2014 Author Share Posted March 10, 2014 just no....why would it be damaged? Really? Use your imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentMobius Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 No, DE _want_ random drops, and the _dont_ want people to be able to stock up and grab new items straight away because the already have 500 Orokin doodads. There are ways around this but a token system isn't going to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminati07 Posted March 10, 2014 Author Share Posted March 10, 2014 No, DE _want_ random drops, and the _dont_ want people to be able to stock up and grab new items straight away because the already have 500 Orokin doodads. I think it's safe to say you didn't read my OP completely, seeing as I addressed the issue of people stockpiling tokens and instantly buying newly released items. If you did read it, and your argument is "a token system isn't going to work", how about you elaborate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentMobius Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I think it's safe to say you didn't read my OP completely, seeing as I addressed the issue of people stockpiling tokens and instantly buying newly released items. If you did read it, and your argument is "a token system isn't going to work", how about you elaborate? "Delay it" is your solution? No, that will never work. If you allow people to purchase items with something they perceive to be a currency they will immediately balk at artificial limitations on what they perceive as "free trade". Any limitation can't be that arbitrary and have to be a feature of the process of earning. Other games have tried to do what you're suggesting an it never works, there is simply a stronger and stronger push to reduce the window until it's gone. Next most games implement another currency for the new content and you have to farm that one, and again it's made useless in the next update. And then players complain about the mass of different currencies. That is why they have stuck to droppables, and that's fine, they do however need a safety net for the unlucky but tokens aren't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminati07 Posted March 10, 2014 Author Share Posted March 10, 2014 "Delay it" is your solution? No, that will never work. If you allow people to purchase items with something they perceive to be a currency they will immediately balk at artificial limitations on what they perceive as "free trade". Any limitation can't be that arbitrary and have to be a feature of the process of earning. Other games have tried to do what you're suggesting an it never works, there is simply a stronger and stronger push to reduce the window until it's gone. Next most games implement another currency for the new content and you have to farm that one, and again it's made useless in the next update. And then players complain about the mass of different currencies. That is why they have stuck to droppables, and that's fine, they do however need a safety net for the unlucky but tokens aren't it. However, this is a beta. Even though DE doesn't really treat it like one. Now is the time to try S#&$ out. If the feedback for a token system is universally negative, scrap it. If the feedback is positive, but with problems, fix the problems and gauge a response again. If the feedback is universally positive, keep it. DE has proven they are not totally unwilling to make changes. Now is the time to @(*()$ try them, not sit on your &#! and let RNG get worse and worse, which it is, and DE is showing no signs of changing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentMobius Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 However, this is a beta. Even though DE doesn't really treat it like one. Now is the time to try S#&$ out. DE has proven they are not totally unwilling to make changes. Now is the time to @(*()$ try them, not sit on your &#! and let RNG get worse and worse, which it is, and DE is showing no signs of changing. Normally I'd agree but this isn't about direct feedback this is about ruining the profitability of the game by altering people's perception of the value of the rewards and that damage is permanent. AKA: in terns of the mechanics of rewards, players are not a rational actor. DE can't tell us things like "Actually this scheme is the most psychologically addictive of those that we looked into" or "Yeah we know you say want it, but you don't actually know what you're talking about" but that doesn't mean it isn't true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom_Bunny Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) I would also like a token system for rare mods or even event mods.+1 from me. :D Edited March 10, 2014 by Postal_pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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