An Open Letter To De From Your Veterans (The megathread)

[Void-Shyrok]

This Thread contains a lot of things that need to be worked on and I believe all of these things need to be worked on.

I'm in favor of this thread.

As for the goats they could have done better.

[Blatantfool]

But for a developer with limited resources choices have to be made, basic business says you cater more to the mass market than the smaller one if you want to maintain and increase revenue when it comes to a F2P game (because you don't have to option of a pricier product aimed specifically at that smaller demographic).

 

  I don't require DE promise me a deadline. I've never wanted them to treat this stuff like "We'll have it done on X date". Only that they work on it and have the courtesy to keep me updated enough to know it exists. Seeing it grow helps. Knowing its going on. Hearing DE talk about what they think would be awesome for it and take feedback about what WE think would help too.

 

 It is complicated and often time consuming, but it isn't impossible.

 

 

 These things I talk about wanting for the early AND endgame? These are things DE will have to do anyway. They aren't optional - they're natural. DE will NEED a better early game experience and they're going to need a healthy endgame. (Note: Not 'Hardcore' endgame. Not 'Difficult', just Healthy.)

 

 This game wont have a point where it is 'done'. Content will always keep coming. By setting up an appropriate Endgame that they can easily add to they set themselves up for further success later on.

[Luminati07]

The thing with improving new player experience is valid.

But, what's going to happen when they make it past that awesome new player experience?

 

They're hit with a massive wall of grind, RNG and lack of content. They go from some really great stuff in early game, to absolutely nothing interesting being available later on. That won't do a thing for player retention.

 

Ideally, DE would be looking at both endgame and new player experience. 

However, it does seem like they aren't even considering endgame in the slightest (Not even a mention of it in the livestream)

 

At the very least. I mean the very least, by launch, there has to be new player experience and fulfilling endgame.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Nugget_

[nightrunner_ks]

But for a developer with limited resources choices have to be made, basic business says you cater more to the mass market than the smaller one if you want to maintain and increase revenue when it comes to a F2P game (because you don't have to option of a pricier product aimed specifically at that smaller demographic).

 

"limited resources"

 

"We have a really big studio" - DESteve, during the last stream.

 

I don't think resources are a problem. They have the resources to make a big game. I mean, Darkness II was @(*()$ sweet. But then again, it was a sequel, so they had source material.

 

Where DE fall over is game design at its core. They lost focus of their vision, and continue to waste time adding shiny BS which only short sighted people like you think is good.

 

I mean, the studio has two full time employees for "community management", plenty of support staff AND the Customer Punishment Officer known as DEGlen. I think they have enough resources.

[Theodorick]

"limited resources"

 

"We have a really big studio" - DESteve, during the last stream.

 

I don't think resources are a problem. They have the resources to make a big game. I mean, Darkness II was @(*()$ sweet. But then again, it was a sequel, so they had source material.

 

Where DE fall over is game design at its core. They lost focus of their vision, and continue to waste time adding shiny BS which only short sighted people like you think is good.

 

I mean, the studio has two full time employees for "community management", plenty of support staff AND the Customer Punishment Officer known as DEGlen. I think they have enough resources.

So from one quote that is out of context you can analyse an entire enterprise financial structure. You sir need to stop playing video games right now and do something of yourself. You are a walking gold mine.

[VegetableBasket]

I'm not too worried about mastery, I'd rather see the current weapons balanced/made interesting/fill niches/enable playstyles. That might include using mastery to tier off weapons and create a sense of progression, which, in that case, I agree it's worth looking at. How much mastery one has or needs for the last rank is a bit arbitrary though, I think they're just giving themselves leg room to make other things give mastery, maybe achievements or new kinds of things that aren't even in the game yet.

End game is so crucial and I can't agree more that we need something to take advantage of the potential of the game. Bosses that require parkour to survive (imagine lephantis fight but with rotating arcs which require the player to be wallrunning for most of the fight while aiming and jumping to the next one, not impossible but not easy, not a bullet sponge solution). Missions that require some players to run around and utilize the environment to expose a boss's weak spot while other players suppress quickly spawning mobs and dodging powerful attacks, falling debris, other crazy things. There is so much opportunity to require players to be dexterous, aware, and coordinated. It would be crazy fun.

 

 

 Once, in a livestream, DE actually shot down the idea of said Raid missions would be awesome, but a ways out. They weren't really feeling it at the time. Perhaps feelings have changed.

Fixed.

dat proof: 

Lore is so mega critical, the forums went ablaze over the gradivus dilemma, we're ready to devour anything thrown at us, speculate, argue, make decisions based on it, we're dying for it, DE knows it, not much happens. Not much is left to be said about it. DE needs to make a big push, dump a lot on us, be a little mysterious but not nearly as much as they are now. Utilize the codex, the environment, the dialogue. Make us question our orders at times, give us choices. Steve has said plenty on how lore, story, and choices could be used but nothing has been done since he talked about it in livestream 3 short of Gradivus, which was neat from a lore perspective, but the choices were ultimately trivial afterwards on a personal basis.

 

I think the something more needs to take the form of PvP. I'm right there with you on that. It would be crazy fun if done right.

[Blatantfool]

So from one quote that is out of context you can analyse an entire enterprise financial structure. You sir need to stop playing video games right now and do something of yourself. You are a walking gold mine.

Quit while you're ahead. It isn't like he has it completely backwards.

Fixed.

dat proof:

Lore is so mega critical, the forums went ablaze over the gradivus dilemma, we're ready to devour anything thrown at us, speculate, argue, make decisions based on it, we're dying for it, DE knows it, not much happens. Not much is left to be said about it. DE needs to make a big push, dump a lot on us, be a little mysterious but not nearly as much as they are now. Utilize the codex, the environment, the dialogue. Make us question our orders at times, give us choices. Steve has said plenty on how lore, story, and choices could be used but nothing has been done since he talked about it in livestream 3 short of Gradivus, which was neat from a lore perspective, but the choices were ultimately trivial afterwards on a personal basis.

I think the something more needs to take the form of PvP. I'm right there with you on that. It would be crazy fun if done right.

Interesting. It would appear they've spoken about it since the time I seem to remember them saying they weren't interested and I was just unaware.

Thank you for the correction.

[VegetableBasket]

Interesting. It would appear they've spoken about it since the time I seem to remember them saying they weren't interested and I was just unaware.

Thank you for the correction.

It's possible but I have no recollection of that. If they specifically nixed raiding I would've erased the livestream 5 row from the sheet, and if they said it might happen but probably not I would've given it a "possible" rating later on, so I can say with 95% confidence that's all that was said about it, at least in streams. I'm not perfect though.

More giant bosses:

http://youtu.be/e2ZdDQTa-wU?t=28m

They talk about dojo raiding here too: 

 

http://youtu.be/UT_UdhuVILM?t=42m30s

 

Edited January 12, 2014 by VegetableBasket

[nightrunner_ks]

So from one quote that is out of context you can analyse an entire enterprise financial structure. You sir need to stop playing video games right now and do something of yourself. You are a walking gold mine.

 

If you go on DE's website, they have job openings. Job openings are an indication that investor confidence is high and that the staff need to be expanded to improve profit.

 

DE are not in the red. If they were in the red, they would be making lay offs. If they are breaking even or making a profit, then they would allow more jobs.

 

I am not DE's accountant. But I'm not an idiot, I can make educated guesses about the size of their studio, and their general revenue.

 

Instead of saying "hurr burr you need to stop playing video games," why don't you stop the ad hominem and do some research and understand it yourself?

[Blatantfool]

It's possible but I have no recollection of that. If they specifically nixed raiding I would've erased the livestream 5 row from the sheet, and if they said it might happen but probably not I would've given it a "possible" rating later on, so I can say with 95% confidence that's all that was said about it, at least in streams. I'm not perfect though.

More giant bosses:

http://youtu.be/e2ZdDQTa-wU?t=28m

They talk about dojo raiding here too: 

 

http://youtu.be/UT_UdhuVILM?t=42m30s

 

 

 I couldn't blame them if they've ditched Dojo Raiding.

 

 That always screamed "Will end up having sounded better on paper" to me.

[nightrunner_ks]

 I couldn't blame them if they've ditched Dojo Raiding.

 

 That always screamed "Will end up having sounded better on paper" to me.

 

Considering how buggy duelling was at the beginning, I agree. Dojo Raiding sounds horrid.

 

Still, the Dojo needs to have some other purpose besides Trading, stupid cosmetics and ClanTech.

[--collstro--]

 I couldn't blame them if they've ditched Dojo Raiding.

 

 That always screamed "Will end up having sounded better on paper" to me.

 

No! Clans who charge an exorbitant clan tax on trades need to be raided. Now!

[Blatantfool]

Considering how buggy duelling was at the beginning, I agree. Dojo Raiding sounds horrid.

 

Still, the Dojo needs to have some other purpose besides Trading, stupid cosmetics and ClanTech.

 

 Turn it into a Dungeon/Stats hub. 100% serious. 

 

>Custom leaderboards. Large Holodisplays the clans can place that will track a certain stat type. Keep the Faction kills/Faction boss kills leaderboards in their respective lab rooms! Track deaths by stalker for laughs! Track best times on particular maps!

 

>Oracle room turns into a Dungeon hub where players go to start setting up a mission. (Accessing a panel will send you to a special version of the Star Map featuring Campaign/Challenge dungeon missions which earn you Achievements, Tokens for a swag shop in the Oracle room and occasionally Mastery.)

 

 Suddenly reasons to care about the dojo start to increase slowly.

 

  Maybe liven it up by having some NPCs or Animals wander it too.

 

 

No! Clans who charge an exorbitant clan tax on trades need to be raided. Now!

 

 I can't imagine which clans would choose to do that. I don't know any reason you'd want to.

[Theodorick]

If you go on DE's website, they have job openings. Job openings are an indication that investor confidence is high and that the staff need to be expanded to improve profit.

 

DE are not in the red. If they were in the red, they would be making lay offs. If they are breaking even or making a profit, then they would allow more jobs.

 

I am not DE's accountant. But I'm not an idiot, I can make educated guesses about the size of their studio, and their general revenue.

 

Instead of saying "hurr burr you need to stop playing video games," why don't you stop the ad hominem and do some research and understand it yourself?

 

Never said they were in the red anyway. Offering jobs alone doesn't make your ressources limitless. What Silvershadow is saying is that they have limited ressources and therefor must make choices. It's like basic stuff here. You challenged his post based on one quote and I called you on it.

 

This game has grown a lot since it's debut in the closed beta state. New staff needs to be hired accordingly and most of it are in the customer support area if you indeed look at it. However, in no way does this mean this game has all the ressources to make all our dreams come true. They have to make choices, prioritize and postpone great ideas that I'm sure we all want just because the ressources are not available as of right now.

 

Just because you made an educated guess on their profits based on... job offers and again one quote out of context does not make Silvershadow's statement on their limited ressources any less true.

 

Anyway ressources alone isn't a viable argument here. Just look at how Battlefield 4 is handling their ressources or how PayDay2 handled theirs. I hope DE takes example on the later, but I do not think it will help if we ask for everything to be done at the sametime. Choices still have to be made.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Theodorick

[nightrunner_ks]

 Turn it into a Dungeon/Stats hub. 100% serious. 

 

>Custom leaderboards. Large Holodisplays the clans can place that will track a certain stat type. Keep the Faction kills/Faction boss kills leaderboards in their respective lab rooms! Track deaths by stalker for laughs! Track best times on particular maps!

 

>Oracle room turns into a Dungeon hub where players go to start setting up a mission. (Accessing a panel will send you to a special version of the Star Map featuring Campaign/Challenge dungeon missions which earn you Achievements, Tokens for a swag shop in the Oracle room and occasionally Mastery.)

 

 Suddenly reasons to care about the dojo start to increase slowly.

 

  Maybe liven it up by having some NPCs or Animals wander it too.

 

 

 

 I can't imagine which clans would choose to do that. I don't know any reason you'd want to.

 

Maybe if the Kubrow doesn't become a sentinel, it would be a Dojo pet.

 

Also, Fool, pls, no greentexting outside the thread.

 

Never said they were in the red anyway. Offering jobs alone doesn't make your ressources limitless. What Silvershadow is saying is that they have limited ressources and therefor must make choices. It's like basic stuff here. You challenged his post based on one quote and I called you on it.

 

This game has grown a lot since it's debut in the closed beta state. New staff needs to be hired accordingly and most of it are in the customer support area if you indeed look at it. However, in no way does this mean this game has all the ressources to make all our dreams come true. They have to make choices, prioritize and postpone great ideas that I'm sure we all want just because the ressources are not available as of right now.

 

Just because you made an educated guess on their profits based on... job offers and again one quote out of context does not make Silvershadow's statement on their limited ressources any less true.

 

Anyway ressources alone isn't a viable argument here. Just look at how Battlefield 4 is handling their ressources or how PayDay2 handled theirs. I hope DE takes example on the later, but I do not think it will help if we ask for everything to be done at the sametime. Choices still have to be made.

 

If they have the resources to push out weekly updates, including cosmetics and monetisation, they have the resources to put out monthly giant updates reworking the fundamental parts of the game.

 

Simple.

Edited January 12, 2014 by nightrunner_ks

[Blatantfool]

Maybe if the Kubrow doesn't become a sentinel, it would be a Dojo pet.

 

Also, Fool, pls, no greentexting outside the thread.

 

 I'm pretty sure they'll stick the Kubrow on the Corpus Snow Outpost tileset, because that is where the Kubrow was originally supposed to be anyway based on little scraps I can remember. .

 

 

 

Some habits die hard, broski.

[nightrunner_ks]

 I'm pretty sure they'll stick the Kubrow on the Corpus Snow Outpost tileset, because that is where the Kubrow was originally supposed to be anyway based on little scraps I can remember. .

 

 

 

Some habits die hard, broski.

 

But Geoff the Female Deodorant man suggested that there would be three types, and candidly revealed that one would be "Domesticated," much to Scott and Steve's dismay.

Edited January 12, 2014 by nightrunner_ks

[Mak_Gohae]

 

The void is better? Please, they've made it worse. Mobs? Well, they've made it better in the sense you know what to farm, but at the same time some mods are restricted to incredibly rare enemies, so it's worse at the same time.

 

Same or better, if it isnt one is another.

And do you have any info that previously mods werent placed in rare enemies?

 

 

 

No, I simply don't remember which. Understand the difference? I'm sure either someone else remembers which LS it was, OR I could go find it. Now stop being thick, they have not improved RNG, they've made it worse.

 

Dont make a claim about something you dont know where it comes from.

 

And why havent you praised them yet?

I find it interesting that for the stuff they adjusted you refuse to even mention it. 

That says a whole lot.

 

 

This is just one example, but maybe perhaps this will refresh your memory?

 

Refresh what exactly?

Nothing there states what was claimed by the other poster.

They are working on stuff to work better, they will always do that.

[MercuryDoll]

Just look at how Battlefield 4 is handling their ressources or how PayDay2 handled theirs. I hope DE takes example on the later, but I do not think it will help if we ask for everything to be done at the sametime.

Sorry to budge in but when you mentioned Payday2 to inquire. Especially the second sentence made me wonder.

Overkill, Payday's developer, ruined their sequel completely. Now what could have been improved over the first game were technicalities. Things like Weapon handling, smoother and tighter controls. Maybe a bit more cleverer AI with more diversity. From then on they only would have to add annual new heists and maybe a new weapon/gadget.

With Payday2, they did in fact improve on the former. The Perk Trees were also an interesting choice. But from then on they went completely downhill in a way i believe they are much worse than DE.

Storywise a catastrophe. From amazing heisters robbing metropolis banks and even ripping out whole blastrooms out of buildings to steal the content, they fell down to robbing local jewelry stores and smashing windows in a mall. There's nothing big about the heists. And new content? Well, apart from skill trees that you level up, everything except weapons are RNG based drops after a mission. so you can easily become max rank and still not get that silencer or scope for the weapon you want. To convolute the drop table they added the Masks and even exp/money bonus to them. They added DLC weapons and addons, but those again are just added to the "payday droptable". Oh yeah, the only new heist that wasn't a blatant recycle of an already existing one was that Train DLC. which had unthrowable bags to transport half a mile... 40 of them. hope you like bags! When asked to import the old heists and maybe fix em up for the new stuff introduced in PD2, they said "technically not possible lol." even though it's the same engine, and they damn ported a counterstrike/left4dead map for christmas.

Actually, now that i mention all these things... does sound something familiar?

Reusing resources (various weapons), RNG based progress, convoluted drop tables, massive grind as content.

The only thing that sets DE apart from Overkill is that they still deliver actual content, like new tilesets, and aren't disgustingly lazy farts who are just in it for the quick buck. But considering how much of all the actual good feedback that gets thrown at them they ignore, I'm not sure they will be better than them for much longer.

 

TL;DR Overkill is almost worse than EA

[Blatantfool]

But Geoff the Female Deodorant man suggested that there would be three types, and candidly revealed that one would be "Domesticated," much to Scott and Steve's dismay.

 

  Cool.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Same or better, if it isnt one is another.

And do you have any info that previously mods werent placed in rare enemies?

The void is worse than it is, it's overstuffed with possible rewards.

 

And before remember, all grineer could drop any mods assigned to the grineer faction. Do you even know how it worked?

 

Dont make a claim about something you dont know where it comes from.

But I do know what it comes from, just not where considering how long ago it was (and the fact each LS is over an hour long, you're looking at 5 hours of watching and waiting for them to say it). And at this point, it's common knowledge, and it's been in the hot topics. Again, they want to reduce the RNG/Grind of the game, that's the point. Don't avoid it.

 

And why havent you praised them yet?

I find it interesting that for the stuff they adjusted you refuse to even mention it. 

That says a whole lot.

Because the adjustments are so minor, or simply shift the RNG, they don't actually make it better (minus the boss drop change).

 

So why won't you admit that they want to lower the grind/RNG? Because you're mak, and you never ever admit you could wrong, so I'm done again. You either thrive on defending DE, or arguing. Or both.

[Mak_Gohae]

Sorry to budge in but when you mentioned Payday2 to inquire. Especially the second sentence made me wonder.

Overkill, Payday's developer, ruined their sequel completely. Now what could have been improved over the first game were technicalities. Things like Weapon handling, smoother and tighter controls. Maybe a bit more cleverer AI with more diversity. From then on they only would have to add annual new heists and maybe a new weapon/gadget.

With Payday2, they did in fact improve on the former. The Perk Trees were also an interesting choice. But from then on they went completely downhill in a way i believe they are much worse than DE.

Storywise a catastrophe. From amazing heisters robbing metropolis banks and even ripping out whole blastrooms out of buildings to steal the content, they fell down to robbing local jewelry stores and smashing windows in a mall. There's nothing big about the heists. And new content? Well, apart from skill trees that you level up, everything except weapons are RNG based drops after a mission. so you can easily become max rank and still not get that silencer or scope for the weapon you want. To convolute the drop table they added the Masks and even exp/money bonus to them. They added DLC weapons and addons, but those again are just added to the "payday droptable". Oh yeah, the only new heist that wasn't a blatant recycle of an already existing one was that Train DLC. which had unthrowable bags to transport half a mile... 40 of them. hope you like bags! When asked to import the old heists and maybe fix em up for the new stuff introduced in PD2, they said "technically not possible lol." even though it's the same engine, and they damn ported a counterstrike/left4dead map for christmas.

Actually, now that i mention all these things... does sound something familiar?

Reusing resources (various weapons), RNG based progress, convoluted drop tables, massive grind as content.

The only thing that sets DE apart from Overkill is that they still deliver actual content, like new tilesets, and aren't disgustingly lazy farts who are just in it for the quick buck. But considering how much of all the actual good feedback that gets thrown at them they ignore, I'm not sure they will be better than them for much longer.

 

TL;DR Overkill is almost worse than EA

 

Thanks for that info.

It is interesting to see how people see stuff differently.

[Blatantfool]

Thanks for that info.

It is interesting to see how people see stuff differently.

 

 All it takes to change a point of view is a different gaming background. Not to mention different circles of friends and hearing information through different media types.

[Mak_Gohae]

The void is worse than it is, it's overstuffed with possible rewards.

 

 

Well, you folks are partly to blame with the forma flip out.

All i do now is laugh at the continued threads of people calling for Forma to be taken out.

And how is the void overstuffed? Reward are spread through the different ranks and some were moved to the derelict.

 

And before remember, all grineer could drop any mods assigned to the grineer faction. Do you even know how it worked?

 

Wait, so you think it's better for any unit to drop the whole mod table rather than specific units dropping specific mods?

 

Cause then you must've been seriously mad when the change was made that was called on by the masses here.

 

But I do know what it comes from, just not where considering how long ago it was (and the fact each LS is over an hour long, you're looking at 5 hours of watching and waiting for them to say it). And at this point, it's common knowledge, and it's been in the hot topics. Again, they want to reduce the RNG/Grind of the game, that's the point. Don't avoid it.

 

Sorry, man, but when you want to make a claim about something they said you need to have the proper info because no one is remembering tings like you do.

 

Because the adjustments are so minor, or simply shift the RNG, they don't actually make it better (minus the boss drop change).

 

Translation: Unless DE fixes it how I WANT to they are doing it wrong.

At least you sort of acknowledge the boss thing.

 

So why won't you admit that they want to lower the grind/RNG? Because you're mak, and you never ever admit you could wrong, so I'm done again. You either thrive on defending DE, or arguing. Or both.

 

I'm not going to admit what is in your head because i am not your head.

This is a loot game and it will apply loot mechanics that are standard in the gaming industry.

They will adjust it or refine it but it's extremely unlikely that they have ever said that they will get rid of it.

 

Praise them......

[Blatantfool]

 What are you two even arguing about?