Ability Nerfs Unwanted, Unneeded, Pointless

[MJ12]

Okay, let's talk about Abilities in this new system.

You have 10 slots. If you want to slot in 4 abilities, that means you're losing 40% of your modification slots. When there's plenty else you want to slot in (if you want to have a Warframe with comparable stats to a pre-UD7 one, you need a Shield, Health, and Power Max mod so you're losing 3 slots anyways, and you need the first two to just survive content now, and you're pretty slow without a Sprint mod... and health is weak without an Armor mod... you're down 5 slots already, plus the 4 abilities, for 9/10 slots filled) this means that you'd think a power would be pretty amazing. A maxed out power should compare to, say, +400% shields or +400% health or something.

Doubly so because abilities are the only things you're ever guaranteed.

Except now they're even weaker than before. And the new system makes them even weaker than the raw numbers would make them look. Because power max mods aren't exactly super-common and depend on luck anyways you will generally only either have 100 or 150 energy, so you can use abilities less often.

Because power strength/duration/range mods didn't get consolidated, and given your reduced mod slots (you effectively only have 4 mod slots, and even if mods are more powerful individually that doesn't matter when you're trying to increase multiple values) it's even harder to find a place to slot in one of them, there is nothing which makes up for this.

And because power efficiency mods are really rare and your old ones all got nuked you're going to be paying full cost for them.

So why are they weaker? Literally every power, no matter how useless they were before, has been nerfed. Significantly so. Shuriken has lost 30% of its damage, Avalanche seems to have a range of about 2 feet, the slowdown of Snowglobe is weaker and its duration is lower, smokebomb lasts for much less time... at least Freeze seems to work about as well as it did before.

And the funny thing is, this could be fixed relatively easily. Don't lock Ability mods at 3. Let us level them up to 5. Or 10. Maybe not things like Avalanche, but would a 1000 damage Shuriken really be that broken given you had to pay a bajillion credits and mods for it?

Would it really be that much of a problem that you'd be able to get abilities to pre-UD7 max levels without hoping for a really, really rare set of mods?

Also, this whole problem ties in, significantly, with the fact that the leveling system as it stands is awful, as noted in these threads:

https://forums.warfr...eveling-system/

https://forums.warfr...e-useful-again/

https://forums.warfr...-hp-and-shield/

https://forums.warfr...nt-is-terrible/

https://forums.warfr...vel-up-bonuses/

I reiterate this because this is a change that really, really needs to be done soon because right now literally nobody benefits from the current state of affairs. The guys looking for 'challenge' are going to end up dealing with content being balanced for the fact that you can't guarantee a certain number of shields/health and everyone's going to cry for damage to be nerfed. The guys who enjoy collecting loot are going to deal with the fact that everyone's angry about what they're getting. The guys who enjoy leveling up get nothing out of levelups. The guys who enjoy killing Grineer for killing's sake get no rewards to make that more entertaining. The guys who enjoy an easy ride don't get that easy ride.

Nobody benefits from the current system and the nerfs to abilities. Nobody.

Edited March 20, 2013 by MJ12

[Zyfe3rX]

Okay, let's talk about Abilities in this new system.

You have 10 slots. If you want to slot in 4 abilities, that means you're losing 60% of your modification slots.

Soo... who the hell said 4 out of 10 slots = losing 60% ?

Am perfectly happy with the new system except the Fusion charge WHICH HAVE TO BROUGHT DOWN,

+

Leveling the basic powers should cost like 1/4th of current costs because now no players are using abilities ~.~,

but still as long as my pet is alive i cant die !

[MJ12]

Soo... who the hell said 4 out of 10 slots = losing 60% ?

Am perfectly happy with the new system except the Fusion charge WHICH HAVE TO BROUGHT DOWN,

+

Leveling the basic powers should cost like 1/4th of current costs because now no players are using abilities ~.~,

but still as long as my pet is alive i cant die !

40%. That was a typo (I hit 6 instead of 4). It doesn't change my point, that being 'abilities being blanket nerfed when their opportunity cost is now way, way higher, their use is severely restricted, and many of them ranged from borderline underpowered to outright useless is a terrible idea'.

Edited March 20, 2013 by MJ12

[Ashsflames]

Save for a minor niggle in the beginning bit (4 out of 10 is 60%? Think you meant 40%.), a pretty perfect consolidation of the problems with this new update system. I, personally, would have been perfectly fine if the endgame of these upgrades was far above and beyond what we had with Update 6, so that we'd see a more long-term improvement in the power of our warframes. That they now will take upwards of weeks to grind fully (and the exorbitant costs being slapped on them,) is a complete insult to anyone who was enjoying the game before when it was said to be done to reduce grinding (it really obviously was not), and an unwanted annoyance to almost anyone attempting to enjoy it now.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Ashsflames

[Eternum]

40%. That was a typo (I hit 6 instead of 4). It doesn't change my point, that being 'abilities being blanket nerfed when their opportunity cost is now way, way higher, their use is severely restricted, and many of them ranged from borderline underpowered to outright useless is a terrible idea'.

yeah a really teribble idea.

[Macilious]

40%. That was a typo (I hit 6 instead of 4). It doesn't change my point, that being 'abilities being blanket nerfed when their opportunity cost is now way, way higher, their use is severely restricted, and many of them ranged from borderline underpowered to outright useless is a terrible idea'.

*that means you're losing 40%* i don't see 60% here .... -.-''

[CY13ERPUNK]

well said OP

true i am adjusting to the new changes

but with U7 being THIS HUGE of a shift

DE should have briefed and prepared their testers

[Casval_Rouge]

Typical internet, instead of responding to OP's point, they are all over the typo.

Anyway, I agree. The balance of powers is completely out of sync with everything. Powers are not as cost effective as health/shield and other essential mods. Powers itself are not balanced at all. My World on Fire2 does less damage and stun than my unranked fireblast while costing more energy and still have that stupid charge up time. Considering how much credits and fusion cores I have to put into leveling up my ultimate, that is bullcrap. Whats worst is that my World on Fire is easily the most uselss of my available mods. Just use +power damage and my World on Fire is obsolete. yeah logic.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Casval_Rouge

[Openblue]

I don't feel Warframe abilities should take up mod slots, I don't require a mod to fire my weapons, so why do the same for the warframe?

Sure, let them level up all the same with the new card and fussion system (hell, make it so we can level up mods that we have equiped), but don't shoot us in the foot when it comes to mods right out of the gate. Powers are already unbalanced because they don't scale with level like they used to, meaning that it's a constant chore to upgrade your stuff so it's actually useful in later stages (the damage stuff that is, utility abilities like invis or swap are good at any level).

DE, please throw us a bone. Make leveling up mean something, stop making progression based on randomisation, and please don't shoot us in the foot when it comes to warframe mods with our abilities.

[Jakiller]

+1

Totally agree. New mod system is cool but the stat balancing is just ridiculous.

I'm not playing until they fix this.

[Buddlschlumpf]

Your powers are not nerfed, you are required to level them up now. You get lvl1 abilities right from the start, they are maxed at lvl3.

[Dreamwalk3r]

I like direction where complains are going. Now most players don't complain about the system at all, just about balancing (which now can be fixed really easy - for example, changing ability drains/stats). And some abilities WERE overpowered, don't you agree, Frosts and Mags?

[MJ12]

Your powers are not nerfed, you are required to level them up now. You get lvl1 abilities right from the start, they are maxed at lvl3.

Yes they are nerfed, I maxed my Shuriken and Smokescreen and Snowglobe. I was comparing Avalanche to its level 1 pre-UD7 version as well.

AND because of the other changes being an indirect nerf to ability usage (less space for power boosters or energy efficiency) they could have stayed the same and it'd still have been a massive nerf.

[Sealgaire]

Seems like most of the abilities that got nerfed needed it to me, except maybe shuriken, did they buff that to the point of being over powered when I wasn't looking? Smoke bomb was over powered and I was wondering why more people weren't noticing it. Pretty much every AoE damage ability was out of control and made everything else trivial, especially on defence missions.

I'm actually really likeing the balance in update 7, it's forcing me to use my abilites more just to complete missions, not just blow through them a little faster. They needed to increase the amount of time it takes to improve a frame anyway. Before you could start with an unranked frame and weapons and have them soloing end game content in a week or two. Any advancement beyond that was just to make doing so even easier.

I am concerned that the use some abilities like superjump, which I love and sacrificed three levels of radial javeline for, won't be as viable now that I have to choose between it and a mod slot. It's fun, but not enough to justify taking it over almost any other mod that would add so much more to survivability or attack power. Maybe seperating abilities and mods would correct this, but if they do take that route, they'll have to reduce the amount of mod slots. Giving us ten with how powerful the new mods can be would be insane.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Sealgaire

[Avenwing]

I would prefer abilities to have their own little system, and give frames 8 actual mod slots (same as the weapons).

[SlyBoots]

generally agree with sealgaire here. shuriken was some kind of hard counter for ancients and it pierced targets, other abilities were out of control as well (dunno if i'd agree about smoke bomb). the nerfs seem warranted.

but the other concern i've also voiced pretty early - effectively you have 3 to 4 card slots to costumize your warframe if you don't throw out the "useless" abilities because for all the farming that's to come you have to sacrifice some of the fun stuff for pure efficiency.

Edited March 20, 2013 by SlyBoots

[Khodos]

well said OP

true i am adjusting to the new changes

but with U7 being THIS HUGE of a shift

DE should have briefed and prepared their testers

Im sorry Cyber but DE did breif us, the Design coucil was told about the changes start of March

though after a chunk of play on the new update, i feel that there is a need for Passive sheild power and Hp per Rank

my survivability took a massive massive hit, went from 850 sheilds and 250 hp on my Loki back down to 75/75 while i have the skill to compensate for this, it was a bit of a shock

the weapon balences however i do like but i still feel they need a passive stat gain as well but make the passivs more centered around the weapon

(for example a very large Puncture for Sniper/single shot/burst rifles a passive stun for shotguns and a smaller puncture bonus for assault rifles/machienguns, and increased armor peircing for Bolt weapons (also having puncture mods work for bolt weapons would be nice i know you coudlnt use them in U6)

but still with generic stats like clip/fire rate/damage/reload speed

and also didnt like that most of the standard weapons dont have a specialized weapon slot (possible foundary options in the future to add them maybe)

[endymion7]

The issue here is that you believe that you need these mods. In my opinion, the only real mods that would be necessary are the health and shield mods, which at max rank can reach 400% and 300%, respectively. Even without all the power max boosts from the old skill tree, you can still accomplish a lot with 100 or 150 power, and I don't believe that default speed is that slow that you would absolutely need a sprint mod. Armor is subjective on whether your warframe is focused on high health or not.

As per how warframe powers have been nerfed, I'm not too certain that this is the case. From what I've seen on my Trinity, my powers are actually stronger: Well of Life and Energy Vamp return more, while Link and Blessing last longer than last update. If you feel like you're always low on energy, perhaps the issue is that you shouldn't spam your skills on every squad you come across. Not only that, but at high ranks, your mods can give double the benefit that a similar mod would offer in the previous system.

And yes, being able to throw about 4 1000-damage shurikens would be broken. And it does not cost "a bajillion credits and mods" to max out a skill. At minimum, it would take about 8 mods of the same thing (the one mod you'll use and 7 to level that mod), and since skill cards are rare mods which fuse for 800 each, it would cost a minimal 5600 credits to max out a single skill. If you want to use common mods instead, it would need about 4 times as many mods with the same price.

As for leveling up being unrewarding, people should keep in mind that mods aren't totally necessary. A player can get by without having to use their maxed out mods. If they feel that they need a certain mod, then they can find that mod and keep it at a relatively low rank. If they feel that leveling up is unrewarding, perhaps they can invest their time or money to get a reactor/catalyst or shuffle around their mods and figure out what's needed and what's not.

I will, however, point out that the high cost of fusion cores is ridiculous. Though the number and rank of cores you find are interesting, this does not ignore the fact that rank 5 cores cost about 4k credits to fuse it with an item that could get about as much as an identical card that would cost about 5-10 times less.

And I'd like to point out that I've managed to benefit from this update. Trinitys Link and Blessing lasts longer to allow me and my team to survive her Energy Vampire allows my team to recover a maximum of 100 power. Ash's Blade Storm can clear out an entire group even at rank 1. And my Volt is still able to wreck rooms of corpus and grineer with his Overload.

I'm not saying that because I'm fine with it means there's no problem. I'm saying that there are others that enjoy the new system and that if the devs see that people don't have a problem with the new system, they'll keep it through beta. But if they feel that there are enough people that oppose it like you, then they could undo the changes. Let the system run its course, and see if your opinion changes or not. If DE does decide to start a thread or something on whether the system should stay or not, then you'll at least have a more solid opinion.

[Pentatonix]

I wish i knew cores would cost more to fuse and sell for less. I woulda sold my mods for about 5 million pre U7.

[Kabeta]

I like direction where complains are going. Now most players don't complain about the system at all, just about balancing (which now can be fixed really easy - for example, changing ability drains/stats). And some abilities WERE overpowered, don't you agree, Frosts and Mags?

Lol agreed Mag's and Frosts where a tad overpowered in update6, so they had a range of almost a 1000 square feet, but nerfing them to aounrd 5-10 feet was a little harsh even after you maxed it out to rank 3 its still the same range lol. A little overkill, and the same goes with volts aoe damaging ability, they are all nerfed down to around 5-10 feet.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Kabeta

[Kabeta]

The issue here is that you believe that you need these mods. In my opinion, the only real mods that would be necessary are the health and shield mods, which at max rank can reach 400% and 300%, respectively. Even without all the power max boosts from the old skill tree, you can still accomplish a lot with 100 or 150 power, and I don't believe that default speed is that slow that you would absolutely need a sprint mod. Armor is subjective on whether your warframe is focused on high health or not.

As per how warframe powers have been nerfed, I'm not too certain that this is the case. From what I've seen on my Trinity, my powers are actually stronger: Well of Life and Energy Vamp return more, while Link and Blessing last longer than last update. If you feel like you're always low on energy, perhaps the issue is that you shouldn't spam your skills on every squad you come across. Not only that, but at high ranks, your mods can give double the benefit that a similar mod would offer in the previous system.

And yes, being able to throw about 4 1000-damage shurikens would be broken. And it does not cost "a bajillion credits and mods" to max out a skill. At minimum, it would take about 8 mods of the same thing (the one mod you'll use and 7 to level that mod), and since skill cards are rare mods which fuse for 800 each, it would cost a minimal 5600 credits to max out a single skill. If you want to use common mods instead, it would need about 4 times as many mods with the same price.

As for leveling up being unrewarding, people should keep in mind that mods aren't totally necessary. A player can get by without having to use their maxed out mods. If they feel that they need a certain mod, then they can find that mod and keep it at a relatively low rank. If they feel that leveling up is unrewarding, perhaps they can invest their time or money to get a reactor/catalyst or shuffle around their mods and figure out what's needed and what's not.

I will, however, point out that the high cost of fusion cores is ridiculous. Though the number and rank of cores you find are interesting, this does not ignore the fact that rank 5 cores cost about 4k credits to fuse it with an item that could get about as much as an identical card that would cost about 5-10 times less.

And I'd like to point out that I've managed to benefit from this update. Trinitys Link and Blessing lasts longer to allow me and my team to survive her Energy Vampire allows my team to recover a maximum of 100 power. Ash's Blade Storm can clear out an entire group even at rank 1. And my Volt is still able to wreck rooms of corpus and grineer with his Overload.

I'm not saying that because I'm fine with it means there's no problem. I'm saying that there are others that enjoy the new system and that if the devs see that people don't have a problem with the new system, they'll keep it through beta. But if they feel that there are enough people that oppose it like you, then they could undo the changes. Let the system run its course, and see if your opinion changes or not. If DE does decide to start a thread or something on whether the system should stay or not, then you'll at least have a more solid opinion.

If you watched the update7 livestream, trinity iteself was going to get special attention to get it more reliable being a support warframe, so that has nothing to do with the other damage dealing warframes lol.