Warframe Builder

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

The bows have an incorrect fire rate for uncharged shots.

 

The arrow actually can be fired instantly after the bow reloads. (i.e. you can fire one shot 0.8 seconds + how long it takes to click and let go)

 

Since we can't have an infinite fire rate (to represent instant shooting after the bow reloads), I would recommend you change the fire rate to about 6, since most people can click 6 times every second.

[Stoi84]

The fire rate is 'not used' for the bows, for an uncharged shot, it's a calculated value which shows the rate of fire based on the reload time. There's no rate of fire base value, it's just an informative value based on the reload time. By the way, this is the case for all weapons with only 1 bullet in magazine. You can see the value, but it does nothing as long as there's a magazine of 1 bullet. If you add Speed Trigger, the damage do not change, because of what I said just before. The rate of fire is based on the reload time, if you add Fast hands, you'll see an increase in the constant DPS and the fire rate will change (1.25 is a shot every 0.8 seconds, which is the reload time). With 1 bullet in magazine, you can fire only after each reload, logical, this is waht you said in your message (0.8 + click). The thing I need to fix is the possibility to have 2 ammo in magazine in the builder, which seems to not be possible in game. If this could have been possible, then something should have been done yes, because the delay between the 2 shots would not have been 0.8, nor 1.25.

[Naftal]

The fire rate is 'not used' for the bows, for an uncharged shot, it's a calculated value which shows the rate of fire based on the reload time. There's no rate of fire base value, it's just an informative value based on the reload time. By the way, this is the case for all weapons with only 1 bullet in magazine. You can see the value, but it does nothing as long as there's a magazine of 1 bullet. If you add Speed Trigger, the damage do not change, because of what I said just before. The rate of fire is based on the reload time, if you add Fast hands, you'll see an increase in the constant DPS and the fire rate will change (1.25 is a shot every 0.8 seconds, which is the reload time). With 1 bullet in magazine, you can fire only after each reload, logical, this is waht you said in your message (0.8 + click). The thing I need to fix is the possibility to have 2 ammo in magazine in the builder, which seems to not be possible in game. If this could have been possible, then something should have been done yes, because the delay between the 2 shots would not have been 0.8, nor 1.25.

But at least Vectis has fire rate ingame and fire rate mods make it faster. It's that small window of time between reloads when shooting as fast as possible.

 

Sure it's not a huge boost but still does make it faster.

EDIT: Nvm, I guess you're just talking about the calculator and don't have the actual fire rate values. I guess I should install some video capturing software since I'm testing stuff often.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Naftal

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

The fire rate is 'not used' for the bows, for an uncharged shot, it's a calculated value which shows the rate of fire based on the reload time. There's no rate of fire base value, it's just an informative value based on the reload time. By the way, this is the case for all weapons with only 1 bullet in magazine. You can see the value, but it does nothing as long as there's a magazine of 1 bullet. If you add Speed Trigger, the damage do not change, because of what I said just before. The rate of fire is based on the reload time, if you add Fast hands, you'll see an increase in the constant DPS and the fire rate will change (1.25 is a shot every 0.8 seconds, which is the reload time). With 1 bullet in magazine, you can fire only after each reload, logical, this is waht you said in your message (0.8 + click). The thing I need to fix is the possibility to have 2 ammo in magazine in the builder, which seems to not be possible in game. If this could have been possible, then something should have been done yes, because the delay between the 2 shots would not have been 0.8, nor 1.25.

Well, it doesn't seem to be working properly, as it seems to be calculating the reload speed twice(the fire rate and the reload speed) into the sustained dps. If it actually fired 1.25 times per second then the sustained dps should be 1.25*the damage of a single shot, shouldn't it? However, right now it's only about half of the damage of each shot, and I could make the sustained dps higher by manually adjusting the fire rate.

[Stoi84]

It's probably because the rate of fire, which is just an informative value, is used in the maths for this particular value. There's no rate of fire involved so if it's used in the formula it's not working as expected yes. I'll have a look at this tomorrow.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Stoi84

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

It's probably because the rate of fire, which is just an informative value, is used in the maths for this particular value. There's no rate of fire involved so if it's used in the formula it's not working as expected yes. I'll have a look at this tomorrow.

Thanks for replying so quickly and for all your hard work on Warframe Builder.

[Stoi84]

Ok so it should work now. For the bows, the sustained dps is simply the calculated rate of fire (which is calculated from the reload time) multiplied by the damage. I also set the magazine size to 0. I hope i didn't created more problems :D

 

But at least Vectis has fire rate ingame and fire rate mods make it faster. It's that small window of time between reloads when shooting as fast as possible.

Yes, if you use mods to have a 2nd bullet in tthe magazine, you'll see it use the 1.5 rate of fire instead of the rate of fire calculated from the reload time.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Stoi84

[RajinCrow]

In order to fix the rate of fire of the burst weapons, I'll need some help. No help means no update because I'm no longer playing and I don't have all the weapons needed. So, what I need, is 2 videos for each burst weapon (a burst weapon is a weapon firing multiplet bullet / shot, like the Hind or the Burston). On each video, empty the clip as fast as possible, reload, and empty it a second time. In one of the videos, use the speed trigger mod to max rank. Please record the videos at the highest possible frame rate. With these videos, I'll be able to find the real rate of fire value for the burst weapons. If you can host the videos somewhere, simply send me the link so I can download the video (no Youtube or anything like this, I need to download the video on my computer), or send me a message and I'll give you my email address to send the video.

 

i mostly use burst fire weapons and honestly any 1 thinks of the " firerate of these weapons" is kinda a fool since u dont need speed trigger u need a mod to help u deal more dmg.

 

i have tried all the burst fire weapons  they fire extermely fast around 1.4 per 3-4 rounds(mostly 4 but since in a mag of 20 (sicarus p ) u fire 5 bursts then the weapon reloads ( in some weapons its 3 and u can even control ur burst since i can shot 3 bullets with normal fire rate but with enchanced u WILL shot all 4)) then the stagger time of the weapon...and from a recent test i find that speed trigger doesnt help with the time between shots but help with the shots speed of fire themselves where the weapon power comes from, and also the fire rate is proportional with the recoil so the more speed u put the harder will be the weapon recoil and the LESS speed the more stable the weapon will be while firing its burst.

 

generally u want to focus on multishot , for example my fav is sicarus prime with +180% multishot those 3 shots r actually 6 shots and if they proc again they r 9 shots (each bullet have 180% to do 2 extra bullets or 100% for extra 1 and 80% for another second extra one) the chance of proc-ing will usually be around 50% so atleast (roughly speaking) 2 of these bullets will proc..which is where the weapon strength comes from ( its ammo economy , proc chance even if its low)...adding a firerate is in my opnion useless...but thats just me

Edited August 3, 2014 by RajinCrow

[Naftal]

i mostly use burst fire weapons and honestly any 1 thinks of the " firerate of these weapons" is kinda a fool since u dont need speed trigger u need a mod to help u deal more dmg.

 

i have tried all the burst fire weapons  they fire extermely fast around 1.4 per 3-4 rounds(mostly 4 but since in a mag of 20 (sicarus p ) u fire 5 bursts then the weapon reloads ( in some weapons its 3 and u can even control ur burst since i can shot 3 bullets with normal fire rate but with enchanced u WILL shot all 4)) then the stagger time of the weapon...and from a recent test i find that speed trigger doesnt help with the time between shots but help with the shots speed of fire themselves where the weapon power comes from, and also the fire rate is proportional with the recoil so the more speed u put the harder will be the weapon recoil and the LESS speed the more stable the weapon will be while firing its burst.

 

generally u want to focus on multishot , for example my fav is sicarus prime with +180% multishot those 3 shots r actually 6 shots and if they proc again they r 9 shots (each bullet have 180% to do 2 extra bullets or 100% for extra 1 and 80% for another second extra one) the chance of proc-ing will usually be around 50% so atleast (roughly speaking) 2 of these bullets will proc..which is where the weapon strength comes from ( its ammo economy , proc chance even if its low)...adding a firerate is in my opnion useless...but thats just me

You are missing the point that is learning how the fire rate works on burst weapons and then fixing the calculations for it on the builder.

[RajinCrow]

You are missing the point that is learning how the fire rate works on burst weapons and then fixing the calculations for it on the builder.

i just told u how the fire rate works...it increased the speed of the bullet release like instead of releasing 3 bullet per sec it can release 3 bullets per 0.5 or even make it 4 bullets it mostly depends on the weapon but for the sicarus pair they make the bullets faster and do not increase the number of bullets fired

[Naftal]

i just told u how the fire rate works...it increased the speed of the bullet release like instead of releasing 3 bullet per sec it can release 3 bullets per 0.5 or even make it 4 bullets it mostly depends on the weapon but for the sicarus pair they make the bullets faster and do not increase the number of bullets fired

But you didn't. We need a perfect explanation and numbers for the calculator.

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

i just told u how the fire rate works...it increased the speed of the bullet release like instead of releasing 3 bullet per sec it can release 3 bullets per 0.5 or even make it 4 bullets it mostly depends on the weapon but for the sicarus pair they make the bullets faster and do not increase the number of bullets fired

How fast does your computer run Warframe? You need over 120fps in order to be able to use the burst weapons at their listed speed. Otherwise, your fire rate will fluctuate depending on your frame rate.

 

 

And to Stoi48, it's fine for you to just use the listed fire rate (5 bursts per second for the Burston and Hind). While no one can fire that fast, they can just adjust the fire rate themselves, the same as with semi-auto weapons.

[Stoi84]

adding a firerate is in my opnion useless...but thats just me

And how am I supposed to calculate the damage without fire rate ?

 

and from a recent test i find that speed trigger doesnt help with the time between shots but help with the shots speed of fire themselves 

I don't have all the data I need but I can already say that speed trigger decreases the delay between 2 shots (clicks), and does not affect the rate of fire during the burst. The videos I have are very reliable, no doubts possible.

 

And to Stoi48, it's fine for you to just use the listed fire rate (5 bursts per second for the Burston and Hind). While no one can fire that fast, they can just adjust the fire rate themselves, the same as with semi-auto weapons.

I'll find a rate of fire during the burst and a delay between each burst for each weapon at 60 fps, with a click macro, to be sure the delays between the shots are optimal, and then i'll calculate a 'real' rate of fire, using the rate of fire during the burst and the delay. This is the best option to have the results the closer to the reality.

 

We need a perfect explanation and numbers for the calculator.

This.

Burst weapons are on the to-do list since a long time now, it's time to get more accurate values.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Stoi84

[RajinCrow]

I don't have all the data I need but I can already say that speed trigger decreases the delay between 2 shots (clicks), and does not affect the rate of fire during the burst. The videos I have are very reliable, no doubts possible.

 

it does affect both try adding extra firerate and the burst will turn from 3 bullets to 4 but anyway gl finding more info :) best of luck i was just sharing my experince

[Stoi84]

This never happen on any of the videos, even with +72% from gunslinger. I'll try to have a look again.

 

Edit : hard to tell for the moment I do not really see the impacts everytime.

Edit : I can tell that this is not the case for the Sybaris, one of the videos is really reliable, we can clearly see the sparks of the impacts, and there's no extra impact. Or, the extra bullet is fired at the same moment and has the exact same trajectory resulting in the same sparks...

Edit : Here's the video of me playing frame by frame on the video of the Sybaris (+ Speed trigger max rank) someone sent me http://youtu.be/WA2Xf9_MkFY

Edited August 3, 2014 by Stoi84

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

 

I'll find a rate of fire during the burst and a delay between each burst for each weapon at 60 fps, with a click macro, to be sure the delays between the shots are optimal, and then i'll calculate a 'real' rate of fire, using the rate of fire during the burst and the delay. This is the best option to have the results the closer to the reality.

 

However, I've heard that some people with super powerful gaming computers have been able to get the listed fire rate with a frame rate over 120fps. So, I think it would probably better to just go with what's listed until DE fixes the frame rate issue.

[Darzk]

However, I've heard that some people with super powerful gaming computers have been able to get the listed fire rate with a frame rate over 120fps. So, I think it would probably better to just go with what's listed until DE fixes the frame rate issue.

You might be able to get 10 or 5 clicks per second with enough FPS, but this in no way takes into account the delay caused by the time it actually takes to fire the burst. Your statement is applicable to semi-auto DPS, rather than burst fire weapons. Only way to reasonably calculate burst fire weapons is for empirical testing on each weapon to determine the burst speed, delay, and effect of RoF mods.

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

You might be able to get 10 or 5 clicks per second with enough FPS, but this in no way takes into account the delay caused by the time it actually takes to fire the burst. Your statement is applicable to semi-auto DPS, rather than burst fire weapons. Only way to reasonably calculate burst fire weapons is for empirical testing on each weapon to determine the burst speed, delay, and effect of RoF mods.

Very well, good luck with testing. You might also want to test the critical chance of uncharged bow shots as well, since they are definitely not capable of 100% crits.

[Stoi84]

Testing is almost done, I only need a few more weapons. See here : https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/163393-warframe-builder/page-46#entry3156507

[Vanhline]

sooo can someone link me to the part that explains why the burston prime dps went through the roof? 

[Stoi84]

1. Damage displayed is from 1 shot, not 1 bullet (so multiplied by 3)

2. Rate of fire is crap at the moment, we are working on this.

[Stoi84]

I updated the burst weapons with the average values I found with the videos. Thanks to all who helped me.

Below, there are 3 values for each weapon. First value is the rate of fire during the burst, which is not affected by fire rate mods, in bullets/sec. The second value is the delay between 2 bursts, which is affect by rate of fire mods, in seconds. And the third value is a calculated rate of fire, in bullets/sec.

 

Ballistica : 13.89 | 0.25 | 8.58

Burston : 17.24 | 0.25 | 8.2

Burston Prime : 13.34 | 0.2 | 8.57

Hind : 11.43 | 0.3 | 7.69

Sicarus : 13.34 | 0.375 | 5.72

Sicarus Prime : 15 | 0.29 | 7.26

Sybaris : 10 | 0.4 | 4

 

About the delay. The delay between two bursts is affected by mods (Gunslinger, Speed Trigger, etc), but in a special way. These mods won't reduce the delay by 72% or 60%. The closest value is that the delay is reduced by half the value of the mod. This is not a perfect accurate value, but this is the closest value I found and it seems to work for all the weapons.

 

I also fixed the way the burst and sustained DPS are calculated for these weapons, something was not going as expected.

So the final values are average values, but very close to the reality of the game, closer than the numbers in the arsenal.

 

If you think one of these values are not accurate enough, please send me a video of you firing with the weapon with an ultra fast click macro, at 60 fps minimum, so I can try to get better results.

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

I updated the burst weapons with the average values I found with the videos. Thanks to all who helped me.

Below, there are 3 values for each weapon. First value is the rate of fire during the burst, which is not affected by fire rate mods, in bullets/sec. The second value is the delay between 2 bursts, which is affect by rate of fire mods, in seconds. And the third value is a calculated rate of fire, in bullets/sec.

 

Ballistica : 13.89 | 0.25 | 8.58

Burston : 17.24 | 0.25 | 8.2

Burston Prime : 13.34 | 0.2 | 8.57

Hind : 11.43 | 0.3 | 7.69

Sicarus : 13.34 | 0.375 | 5.72

Sicarus Prime : 15 | 0.29 | 7.26

Sybaris : 10 | 0.4 | 4

 

About the delay. The delay between two bursts is affected by mods (Gunslinger, Speed Trigger, etc), but in a special way. These mods won't reduce the delay by 72% or 60%. The closest value is that the delay is reduced by half the value of the mod. This is not a perfect accurate value, but this is the closest value I found and it seems to work for all the weapons.

 

I also fixed the way the burst and sustained DPS are calculated for these weapons, something was not going as expected.

So the final values are average values, but very close to the reality of the game, closer than the numbers in the arsenal.

 

If you think one of these values are not accurate enough, please send me a video of you firing with the weapon with an ultra fast click macro, at 60 fps minimum, so I can try to get better results.

Wait, but doesn't the fire rate get reduced if you just spam the trigger? What about the thing where you have to press exactly after a burst ends to get the maximum fire rate?

[Stoi84]

These values are from videos taken with a click macro, so there are good chances that it clicked at the best time to have the optimal delay between the bursts, and it clicked almost everytime so if the fire rate could change with a spam of clicks, it's in the videos.

[Shafilp]

just asking when Quanta will add to website?