Stoi84

Warframe Builder

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Darzk    2,841

Burst Damage Per Second is a rate, not an value for one second worth of firing.

 

What you're referring to is 'Damage within one second', which is not the same thing as DPS.

 

BDPS as-is is fine. The Akbronco build is fine - it's ~32k damage in ~0.3 seconds, which is a rate of damage equal to 110k BDPS.

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OfficerBeepsky    1,375

Burst Damage Per Second is a rate, not an value for one second worth of firing.

 

What you're referring to is 'Damage within one second', which is not the same thing as DPS.

 

BDPS as-is is fine. The Akbronco build is fine - it's ~32k damage in ~0.3 seconds, which is a rate of damage equal to 110k BDPS.

 

Tell me exactly how you're going to blast out 110k BDPS when the weapon's magazine can't support constant firing for one full second, exactly?

 

You're wrong, and the formula's wrong. It's displaying erroneous misleading numbers.

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Darzk    2,841

It's displaying erroneous misleading numbers.

Because you're interpreting the meaning of the number incorrectly.

 

Look, DPS is more of an MMO term, so I'll try explaining it that way. If you had a spell doing 200 damage that took a second to cast and a second to cool down, you'd have 200 Burst DPS and 100 Sustained DPS. If you had a spell doing 100 damage that took half a second to cast and half a second to cooldown, you'd still have 200 Burst DPS and 100 Sustained DPS.

 

That the second spell can do less damage within one second is not really a relevant piece of information.

 

Sustained DPS is generally the more important information when considering the effectiveness of a weapon, but burst is situationally important. It's good to know that build can pull out 110k DPS, for however long the magazine sustains it, whether it be 0.3 seconds or not.

 

'Damage per 1 second' is not a relevant value - it's an arbitrary designation. How is it any more relevant than 'Damage per 2 seconds'? 'Damage per 0.3 seconds'?

 

Yes, we could see some value of damage per clip. But ultimately that's just a facet of Sustained DPS, which is shown.

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Johannez    128

Hey Stoi found another bug. http://warframe-builder.com/Melee_Weapons/Builder/Scindo_prime/t_30_000020024_226-6-5-234-0-3-236-7-5-239-3-5-241-1-5-244-5-5-245-2-5-247-4-5-303-8-3_234-9-241-11-245-11-239-9-247-5-244-9-226-9-236-6-303-10/en/4-0-67/47165/0

 

It's about showing the correct formas again and found the reason behind it. Scindo Prime(Melee) has a V-polarity for the stance. If I forma a D-polarity over it, and add a V onto the normal slots(not stance one), it will function as if it would be the same V. But it's obviously not.

 

And another thing, it has been there for long. Sometimes when I try to save my builds, it just won't. I don't know why but i press the edit(save) button, it will change the look to the pressed-down button, but will NOT save. It was very fustrating in the past because I had to copy the link, add all formas again, write the name & description all over again -.-

 

It got better since the "Export" links include formas now, but it's still a thing. Happens about 1 out of 8 times saving a build.

Edited by YavielsNight

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Stoi84    748

It's about showing the correct formas again and found the reason behind it. Scindo Prime(Melee) has a V-polarity for the stance. If I forma a D-polarity over it, and add a V onto the normal slots(not stance one), it will function as if it would be the same V. But it's obviously not.

If you change the D stance for a V, it cost 1 forma.

If you add another V, it cost 0 formas because it's the same as moving the stance V to another slot and add the D to the new empty stance mod.

This is how it works in the builder because this is how it used to work. Maybe this has changed ?

 

The formas are saved in the link btw.

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Darzk    2,841

Yeah, it was changed - stance and aura polarities can no longer be swapped into the main build slots... they used to, but it was silently patched out ages ago.

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OfficerBeepsky    1,375

Because you're interpreting the meaning of the number incorrectly.

 

Look, DPS is more of an MMO term, so I'll try explaining it that way. If you had a spell doing 200 damage that took a second to cast and a second to cool down, you'd have 200 Burst DPS and 100 Sustained DPS. If you had a spell doing 100 damage that took half a second to cast and half a second to cooldown, you'd still have 200 Burst DPS and 100 Sustained DPS.

 

That the second spell can do less damage within one second is not really a relevant piece of information.

 

Sustained DPS is generally the more important information when considering the effectiveness of a weapon, but burst is situationally important. It's good to know that build can pull out 110k DPS, for however long the magazine sustains it, whether it be 0.3 seconds or not.

 

'Damage per 1 second' is not a relevant value - it's an arbitrary designation. How is it any more relevant than 'Damage per 2 seconds'? 'Damage per 0.3 seconds'?

 

Yes, we could see some value of damage per clip. But ultimately that's just a facet of Sustained DPS, which is shown.

...except it DOESN'T put out 110k damage. EVER. Your hypothetical situation is also flawed, because both of the spells you just described both actually are able to be cast for the given values you gave!

 

Something like the akbronco prime.

 

Let's shove lethal torrent, gunslinger, and anemic agility on it for funsies!

 

26.73 fire rate

6 magazine

146.35 total damage
3911.94 burst dps
347.84 sustained dps
 

Tell me. Exactly how 6 * 146.35 = 3911.94

 

26.73 * 146.35 = 3911.94

But the gun can't fire off 26.73 shots, it can only fire off 6, so the gun's ACTUAL "burst" dps is 6 * 146.35 = 878.1

 

Your spell metaphor is absolutely and utterly flawed, specifically because of the fact that both of those listed spells are capable of firing at that given rate, in every circumstance.

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Darzk    2,841

Your spell metaphor is absolutely and utterly flawed, specifically because of the fact that both of those listed spells are capable of firing at that given rate, in every circumstance.

*Bangs head against desk*

 

So now we have a spell that deals 878 damage with a 0.22 second cast and 2.3 second reload, and a spell that deals 3991 damage with a 1 second cast and a 10.47 second cooldown. Same difference - 3991 burst, 348 sustained.

 

DPS is a RATE, not an absolute value.

 

Hell, we'll pull the example from the other thread where people tried to teach you. A car travelling at 50 mph for half an hour still has a speed of 50mph, not 25, even tho it only travels 25 miles.

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Honorbridge    35

Found some bugs related to Kestrel:

 

Astral Twilight stance isn't showing up.  Thankfully Gleaming Talon has the same polarity, so it isn't a huge deal. (This actually applies to all the other throwing melee weapons: Glaive, Halikar, Glaive Prime)

 

Entropy Flight mod - it's listed as a check/V polarity (Madurai) when it's supposed to be a dash (Naramon).

 

The default polarities should be dash in 7, V in 8.  Again, not a big deal since we can manually move these around.

 

Not surprised these were missed since no one's published a build for Kestrel since September. :)

Edited by Honorbridge

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OfficerBeepsky    1,375

*Bangs head against desk*

 

So now we have a spell that deals 878 damage with a 0.22 second cast and 2.3 second reload, and a spell that deals 3991 damage with a 1 second cast and a 10.47 second cooldown. Same difference - 3991 burst, 348 sustained.

 

DPS is a RATE, not an absolute value.

 

Hell, we'll pull the example from the other thread where people tried to teach you. A car travelling at 50 mph for half an hour still has a speed of 50mph, not 25, even tho it only travels 25 miles.

So tell me what use the rate is to anyone when it's completely unattainable in game?

Your metaphor for the vehicle is ALSO flawed, because with the magazine limitations, it's equivalent to driving straight into a wall once the mag is emptied.

 

 

Again, you're using examples that can SUSTAIN that rate.

 

A gun that can fire 22 shots in one second, yet only can fire six shots, is still not firing 22 shots per second.

 

It's firing 6 shots at a rate of 22 shots per second, and then reloading.

Edited by OfficerBeepsky

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Stoi84    748

It's about showing the correct formas again and found the reason behind it. Scindo Prime(Melee) has a V-polarity for the stance. If I forma a D-polarity over it, and add a V onto the normal slots(not stance one), it will function as if it would be the same V. But it's obviously not.

This is fixed. Let me know if it does not work as expected.

 

 

It's firing 6 shots at a rate of 22 shots per second, and then reloading.

And during this period, your burst DPS is what is displayed. Even if you can't fire for one entire second, the burst DPS value is still an accurate and an interesting value to determine the fire power of your weapon. If you fire for 500 damage over 0.5 second, then the DPS is 1000/s. Don't think of the burst DPS as "the damage the weapon will do over a second", but as "the damage the weapon can do over a second". Also remember that the burst DPS is only viable in the case you don't reload. If you want a more consistent value, you'll need to check the sustained DPS, which includes the magazine size and the reload time.

 

The burst DPS is displaying what it's supposed to display, which is total damage * fire rate. You simply need to be careful about the meaning of the value.

 

 

Astral Twilight stance isn't showing up.  

 

Entropy Flight mod - it's listed as a check/V polarity (Madurai) when it's supposed to be a dash (Naramon).

I added the Astral Twilight mod and fixed the Entropy Flight mod.

Edited by Stoi84
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OfficerBeepsky    1,375
"the damage the weapon can do over a second".

 

Except it CAN'T.

 

This is the problem, and hence, the bug report.

 

You're displaying erroneous values on weapons that have a fire rate larger than their magazine. They will expel their entire mag, however their damage potential drops off rapidly due to the fact that they can only fire X shots.

 

 

If Fire Rate > Magazine, Burst DPS = Damage per Shot * Magazine, else Burst DPS = Damage per Shot * Fire Rate

 

That is all you need to do to fix this.

 

You could have a weapon that has a fire rate of a thousand, and a magazine size of ten.

 

It's not going to fire off a thousand shots in one second, it's going to fire off ten and then reload.

Edited by OfficerBeepsky

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Darzk    2,841

 

That is all you need to do to fix this.

 

Good god. It's not broken. You just can't seem to understand that BDPS is a theoretical rate, not a practical one, or an absolute value.

 

Stoi has chosen to define Burst DPS as the way most of us would, as the peak damage rate attainable by the weapon. If you want to know damage potential within one second for some reason (that is not sustainable either and hardly relevant information, in my opinion, but you badly seem to want it) you can easily calculate it yourself, as you've shown above.

 

Damage potential within one second is not relevant information. Basically it says there's absolutely no difference to the example weapon if you install Gunslinger, or even if you install Quickdraw. But there is. In the first, I spit out my mag quicker, dealing more damage sooner (Burst DPS), and in the latter, I've reloaded sooner so I can start shooting again (Sustained DPS).

 

People misunderstanding the meaning of a term is not a bug in the builder.

 

If you still are having trouble grasping the meaning of the BDPS term, we can continue this via PM's, let me know. Think we've derailed this thread enough.

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Darzk    2,841

Another recent patch change:

 

15.15.0.1
Changes:
Ratka Ballistica now deals 30 damage per uncharged bolt. The damage type is broken down to 15 Puncture, 7.5 Impact and 7.5 Slash.

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Stoi84    748

Basically it says there's absolutely no difference to the example weapon if you install Gunslinger, or even if you install Quickdraw. But there is. 

This.

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xlraistlx    4,640

The builder was not updated to the changes made to Nekros in a past Update (can't remember which one).

 

Terrify

It now affects 7 / 12 / 15 / 20 enemies. Range changed to 15m when maxed; on unranked, rank 1 and rank 2 the wiki contradicts itself, sadly cannot confirm any. Duration and Armor reduction remains the same.

 

Shadows of the Dead

Sumoned Shadows now have 25% / 50% / 75% / 150% bonus damage & 15% / 35% / 65% / 100% bonus health.

Number of copies, duration and range remains the same.

 

There wasn't changes on Soul Punch and/or Desecrate that I can recall.

Edited by xlraistlx

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StevesEvilTwin    301

Warframe Builder gave me a virus. I choose to support you by disabling Adblock and this is what I get? You need to watch your ads more closely. Also please shrink the ad box, move it to the bottom, and disable popups, so people won't accidentally click on it. 

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Stoi84    748

There's no reason to be alarmed, and there's no reason to do anything. It's either a false positive from your antivirus or something that's gonna be removed soon by the ad media if there's a real risk. Ads are displayed for months now and you're the first one who report a problem like that. There's no way for me to control each campaign, they're country dependent and also cookies dependent when it comes to google ads. I can send a message to the ad media if you can give me more information about the concerned ad/campaign, but there's nothing more I can do unless it becomes a regular problem.

 

There's no popUps, there's popUnders, but some stupid browsers, like I.E, choose to display them on top, for no reasons. This is not something I can change, unfortunately. On Windows 8, Chrome and Opera open popUnders in a new tab and Firefox pushes them to the back. These 3 browsers represent 85% of the visits on Warframe Builder, so I doubt a lot of people have problems with unexpected clicks. The only things I can suggest is to use one of the 3 mentionned browsers, up to date, or use your adblocker again, because as I said, I can't control how the browsers will open the popUnders.

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GrandMasterV    126

Would like to know what dictator is messing with my builds, to short of a description i put in there what is needed.

Boring a reader with a wall of text is not my thing to begin with what it does and how it does it is there.

All you need to know, 

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Nachino    437

Hi Stoi, i just found that the Melee weapons display the wrong amount of Forma used on a build.

For example, if i used one Forma on a build it will display 2 instead, and if i used two Forma on a build it will display 3 instead. It will always display one more Forma than the amount which was actually used, the build list displays the right amount though.

 

EDIT: If you use Forma on the Stance slot the build will display the correct amount, however if you revert the polarity to how it originally was, it will display incorrectly again.

Edited by Nachino

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xWilhelm    0

Hi, i recommend taking in account the magazine size of weapons to calculate the Burst DPS and represent weapons better. For example, the Brakk on Weapon Comparator has 73k of burst because is multiplying the fire rate and damage, the problem whit it is fire rate is 11.6 but the magazine only of 7. That means the weapon can shot only 7 rounds per second or 7/11.6 = 0.6 of the burst dps calculated. Even with his very high reload speed of 1 second, its reloading more time than shooting.

Same with akbroco that is much worst in this respect.

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