Stoi84

Warframe Builder

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Stoi84    749

Oh... There seems to be something strange on your screen. If the 'private build' box is checked, the box to agree to the rules is supposed to disappear. I'm not sure if it's the cause of the problem, but it can be. Which browser are you using ?

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Snowman486    654

The eternal war mod has been added (thanks warframe builder :D   ) and my valkyr build is now complete.

 

 

[u16] Eternal War Valkyr  http://goo.gl/O1JSQS

 

This build is meant to use the faction augment mod eternal war. The downside of this build is that it costs a lot to use your abilities, but this is made up for by their excellent duration (improved further by eternal war), the ease of energy acquisition (rage), and the excellent power strength. This build is best paired with the linked scindo prime build. The Eternal War Valkyr build with the hysteria scindo prime is great for t4 survival. You cast War Cry on your teammates at the start of the mission and, so long as you can avoid nullifier's, they're perma-buffed (even if they run into nullifiers). If you ever need to reapply, just post a waypoint and say "stand here". Once your teammates are within range, recast warcry. Make sure that you're targeting groups of squishy enemies (you'll kill them extremely quickly and your warcry duration will stay at cap). The sync with good melee frames, like loki, is insane.

 

[update 16] Valkyr's Hysteria Scindo Prime    http://goo.gl/zTdXX3

 

This is actually a pretty controversial build; for single targets, you'd probably be better off switching out primed reach for an elemental damage mod. I've found, however, that often when dealing with groups, I prefer range to damage (and I'm often fighting groups with this build). In terms of Hysteria, this build is optimally modded for it, and this weapon is perfect (it gives Valkyr high base damage/crit chance/crit damage). Some claim that a finisher damage mod also works with hysteria, but even if it does, its probably not worth the slot (these other mods will help you when you're using war cry, but not hysteria, which you should try to do a lot). 

 

I'm having a ton of fun with these builds right now, just figured I'd post them so everyone can take advantage.

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Darzk    2,826

The Berserker mod is still incorrectly giving a 90% speed boost at 3 stacks - it should be capped at 75%.

 

IIRC it's 30/60/75.

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GAME_PRO24X    235

So theyre seems to be an issue ive been encountering on the site as of late. The details button to look at your build stats has been malfunctioning. It does nothing when i click it. the only time i get it to work is disabling adds and quickly clicking it as the page loads but if i try clicking it again it will not come up thus i have to reload the page which in times doesnt work either. Ive used this site with adblocker before and had no issues so idk what changed. I do know that on the bottom left hand side of the screen (im in firefox) when i hover over that details button i get a javascript: void(0), and i get the feeling that may be the cause of all this.

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Stoi84    749

Added new augment mods Firequake, Explosive Legerdemain, Vampire Leech.

Added new weapons Dual Raza, Aksomati.

Berserker mod is now capped at 75%.

 

when i hover over that details button i get a javascript: void(0), and i get the feeling that may be the cause of all this.

This is normal and this is not the cause of the problem, neither the use of an adblocker. Try to refresh your cache with F5. It looks more like a JavaScript loading issue. If the problem persists, try to be more precise. Does the problem appears for all builders ? (weapons, warframes, sentinels). Can you try with another browser ?

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I got a suggestion for a feature you can add. 

is it possible to add like a checkbox when firing through volt shield calculation?  adding 200% crit multiplier and showing the result of total damage per shot that passes through the shield? 

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Bovrinox    49

i cant log in to the site, anyone else had this trouble? i just get "incorrect informations". tried resetting my password, the link got sent to exactly the same email address that i would log in with, but it still wont work with the new password.

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Stoi84    749

You don't log in with your email address but with your username. I loged in without problems. if the problem persists, send me a private message with your username and your email address.

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Bovrinox    49

Oh I see, my apologies. Its just that google chrome saved my password, and auto-filled the login box with my email address! I just assumed it was supposed to, didn't think of trying my username! What a goon! XD

Cheers mate!

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I have a question if someone doesn't mind answering it. Is Warframe Builder able to work on iOS? I'm trying to do some build in it, but it's not letting me drag the mods; just wondering if it's able for use on mobile devices.

Thanks

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Darzk    2,826

just wondering if it's able for use on mobile devices.

 

Nope, and no plans for it in the future.

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cittran    293

So I've got a bug-report for this problem -- I got a message (from the future, according to my time, which says 21:32, right now) -- informing me that one of my builds had been reported. I've got no issue with my builds being reported (assuming the report was correct)*, but... well this is the message I got:

 

"2015-04-12 22:44"

"Your build ID 7441 has been reported by a user for the following reason:

there are additional points that can be used to optimize the build. You can probably reduce the number of formas used or increase the rank of some mods."

 

 

Now, that's fine and good, but the build-number-link that's listed isn't in my build list, so I've got no idea what it's talking about. On top of that, I'm fairly sure (I'd say 85-90%) that I didn't waste any points in a public build of mine -- I don't know about my private ones.

 

Since this is something which I definitely lack the means to solve, could you tell me if this was a correct message, please?

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Stoi84    749

What's your username on Warframe Builder ? This is possible that wrongs values are stored in the database, or wrong values are displayed.

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Hi, I'd like to make a suggestion.

 

I notice there is a check mark toggle to change the calculations to show either crit or non-crit. Unfortunately, what this shows for both DPS calculations is either 100% crit chance or 0% crit chance. This means, the DPS numbers we are seeing are totally skewed.

 

So what I propose is this:

 

1) Remove the check mark toggle for crit/non-crit display

 

2) Show 2 numbers for Total Damage, 1 for crit, 1 for non-crit

 

3) Rework the Burst DPS calculation to the following formula: (MagSize*CritChance*CritDmg) + (MagSize*(100%-CritChance)*NonCritDmg) / (MagSize/RoF). In other words, we will calculate damage for both crit and non-crit chances for the entire size of the magazine, add them together, then factor in the Rate of Fire to get our Burst DPS.

 

4) Rework the DPS calculation using the same method as #3, but using the whole ammo size.

 

Or if you wish to retain the check mark toggle, have it change only the Total Damage (and the  physical and elemental damage calculations, now that I realize it belatedly). But the DPS values will remain the same, using the above formula. 

 

This should hopefully bring the DPS numbers closer to actual performance. I know it's not exact because there are lots of other factors we cannot accurately account for, but at least these calculations would be... ideal.

 

I hope this is not too much to ask.

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Stoi84    749

It's not 0% or 100% crit chance. It's either add or not the average damage added by the critical values, which includes the critical multiplier AND the critical chance.

 

I.E, for the Boltor Prime. 55 is the base damage, and 57.76 is the damage with the average critical damage added. You add 55 damage (2x multiplier) 5% of the time with the critical hits. This is an average of 2.75 damage added per shot, but it's rounded to 2.76 because floating numbers in javascript sucks, especially when you have multiples calculations.

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Darzk    2,826

I notice there is a check mark toggle to change the calculations to show either crit or non-crit. Unfortunately, what this shows for both DPS calculations is either 100% crit chance or 0% crit chance. This means, the DPS numbers we are seeing are totally skewed.

As Stoi has pointed out, this isn't what the check mark does; unchecked it shows damage similar to the arsenal, with the values equal to the non-crit damage; checked it incorporates in the added damage from the potential to get crits. 

 

 

3) Rework the Burst DPS calculation to the following formula: (MagSize*CritChance*CritDmg) + (MagSize*(100%-CritChance)*NonCritDmg) / (MagSize/RoF). In other words, we will calculate damage for both crit and non-crit chances for the entire size of the magazine, add them together, then factor in the Rate of Fire to get our Burst DPS.

This isn't Burst DPS. It looks like you were going for 'Burst DPS inside one mag' or 'Damage within one second' (you missed a *RoF and a couple brackets), which is not the same thing - Burst DPS is a rate and is independent from mag size entirely. 

 

'Damage per 1 second' is not a relevant value - it's an arbitrary designation. How is it any more relevant than 'Damage per 2 seconds'? 'Damage per 0.3 seconds'?

 

Yes, we could see some value of damage per clip. But ultimately that's just a facet of Sustained DPS, which is shown.

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OK, my apologies, I misunderstood. I thought that when I posted a few months ago Burst DPS was defined as "the total damage output for the whole size of magazine over the fire rate of the weapon." Not an exact quote, but that is how I understood it.
 
Now after searching, I found this definition for BPDS:
 

Good god. It's not broken. You just can't seem to understand that BDPS is a theoretical rate, not a practical one, or an absolute value.

 

Stoi has chosen to define Burst DPS as the way most of us would, as the peak damage rate attainable by the weapon. If you want to know damage potential within one second for some reason (that is not sustainable either and hardly relevant information, in my opinion, but you badly seem to want it) you can easily calculate it yourself, as you've shown above.

 

Damage potential within one second is not relevant information. Basically it says there's absolutely no difference to the example weapon if you install Gunslinger, or even if you install Quickdraw. But there is. In the first, I spit out my mag quicker, dealing more damage sooner (Burst DPS), and in the latter, I've reloaded sooner so I can start shooting again (Sustained DPS).

 

People misunderstanding the meaning of a term is not a bug in the builder.

 

I think though, a lot of the misunderstanding comes from your use of the term DPS. And it seems from a lot of requests to "fix" the calculations, most of us understand DPS a lot differently from how you define it. Why not, if I may be so bold now, for your sakes and everyone else's, change the term Burst DPS to the very definition you guys brought forth: Peak Damage Rate. Why? Because to most people, DPS is an acronym that stands for Damage Per Second. And contrary to the claims that looking at the damage done in 1 second is irrelevant, it is relevant as long as you continue to use the term/acronym DPS.
 
Now as to the crit damage calculations, I honestly didn't think to look at it closely. But now that you mentioned how it is calculated, I'd have to ask: Why? Because I always assumed that, taking your example for the Boltor Prime, the 5% crit chance means that 5% of the bullets spit out will do 2x the damage. But since 55 damage is the whole damage for 1 exact bullet, I decided to calculate 5% against the magazine size doing 2x that then add the 95% of the same mag doing 1x (non-crit) to arrive at the total damage output for the magazine. Hence the relation to BDPS and SDPS in my calculations.
 
It seems that what you did is take 5% of the 55 damage to arrive at 2.75 then add back to 55 to get the total crit damage of 57.76. But that means your crit multiplier is 5%; what happened to the 2x multiplier and where did it factor into the calculation? That would also be like the bullet grew 5% more mass or 5% in size to get 5% more damaging, which to me doesn't make sense.
 
Again I'd have to ask, why calculate it that way? Is it because DE calculates it that way?
 
Sorry if I sound combative. I'm not. I'm just trying to understand, and hopefully clear out the ever present misunderstanding surrounding Burst DPS and, at least to me now, crit damage.

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Darzk    2,826

5% more damage is the same, over a large sample, as 5% of bullets dealing double damage.

 

If the multiplier was 4x instead of 2x, it would be showing 15% more damage, which is the same as 5% of bullets dealing 4x damage. (Or to see the relationship more clearly, 5% of bullets dealing 300% increased damage - 5%*300% = 15%).

 

Because to most people, DPS is an acronym that stands for Damage Per Second. And contrary to the claims that looking at the damage done in 1 second is irrelevant, it is relevant as long as you continue to use the term/acronym DPS.

I don't understand how people get confused by this. Okay, you're driving at 60 MPH; does it matter how long you drive for? If you run out of gas every half hour, does that make any difference to the speed you're travelling? The same holds true for DPS. The rate of damage you're dealing while shooting is what matters, not whether you can maintain it for more than the arbitrary length of one second.

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Moghul    563

Sustained damage is equally important to DPS. If you fight a boss, high sustained damage > high burst followed by a /too long/ downtime.

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5% more damage is the same, over a large sample, as 5% of bullets dealing double damage.

 

If the multiplier was 4x instead of 2x, it would be showing 15% more damage, which is the same as 5% of bullets dealing 4x damage. (Or to see the relationship more clearly, 5% of bullets dealing 300% increased damage - 5%*300% = 15%).

 

Ok, I see the relationship. Thanx for clarifying that out.
 
 

I don't understand how people get confused by this. Okay, you're driving at 60 MPH; does it matter how long you drive for? If you run out of gas every half hour, does that make any difference to the speed you're travelling? The same holds true for DPS. The rate of damage you're dealing while shooting is what matters, not whether you can maintain it for more than the arbitrary length of one second.

 

 
But everyone knows that when you are talking about MPH, you are talking about the speed or velocity (of a vehicle in this instance). Assuming a constant velocity of 60 MPH and ignoring all other factors like acceleration, traffic, etc., you will travel a distance of 60 Miles after driving 1 hour.
 
What if you remove the phrase per hour? What does 60 miles mean? It actually means something completely different, having changed the topic from velocity to distance. What if I change per hour to per day? Or per second? Does that change our topic? No, it's still a discussion about speed. Only now, our values are much lower or much higher.
 
Similarly, and I would like to point once more, most associate the term DPS as Damage Per Second. If you remove that phrase per second, what is this Damage you are talking about then? How or when do I attain such damage? Had the calculations stopped at Total Damage, the meaning would be clear. But you chose to calculate something more, and chose to call it xDPS, so I (we) would assume your are talking about xDamage Per Second and proceed to calculate as such. Then you tell me, it's not per second, it's arbitrary. WHAT?
 
That is why I am now proposing, to minimize the confusion, that you discard the term Burst DPS altogether if what you really want to say is Total Damage * ROF. Call it Peak Damage Rate, call it Carnage Rate, call it whatever else that clearly indicates you are not basing this number on any given length of time. Or if you wish to retain the term, then clearly you should change the calculations.
 
Actually, if you think about it, ROF, which stands for Rate of Fire, is a rate that is tied to a specific time period. In this case our time is again 1 second, and if I'm not mistaken that is what 10.00 ROF means for Boltor Prime. So you really cannot remove time from these numbers.
 
I know it's your website and all, and you don't have to change anything if you don't want, but your redefinition of the established term DPS is causing far too many misunderstandings. And if your "Good god. It's not broken" post any indication, you guys are already frustrated of having to continually re-explain yourselves.

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Darzk    2,826

your redefinition of the established term DPS is causing far too many misunderstandings. 

I really don't see it as a redefinition. Outside of a few comments on this thread, I've never heard of people having trouble with the definition of Burst DPS. With this game or any other.

 

K.I.S.S.: Burst DPS doesn't factor in reloading, Sustained DPS does. Done.

 

The builder even says:

the burst DPS is the DPS if you don't need to reload (total damage * rate of fire), and the sustained DPS includes the magazine size and the reload time.

 

It doesn't matter all that much anyways, it's not like its hard to figure out, and it's only a relevant discussion when the RoF is greater than the mag size, which is just a handful of weapons. 

 

if your "Good god. It's not broken" post any indication, you guys are already frustrated of having to continually re-explain yourselves.

Actually, it's just me. I'm trying to let Stoi work on the actual builder in the limited time he has, not worry about rewording a term because people can't understand it. He doesn't even play WF all that much anymore - props to him keeping the builder going.

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Stoi84    749

Here's what the values are for :

 

Total damage : the damage for 1 shot, including all the bullets/pellets.

Burst DPS : the DPS if you fire without reloading. This is a revelant value when you fire in little bursts and you dont need to reload.

Sustained DPS : the DPS when you have to fire multiple clips, it includes reload time and magazine size. This is a revelant value when you fire for a long time with at least 1 reload.

 

I think it covers all the cases.

 

I don't see why the term DPS is a problem. If you fire for 0.5 seconds or 4 seconds without reloading, you have the same DPS, which is the burst DPS in the builder. People tend to think that DPS means that they must be able to fire for 1 second. This is not the case. Even a weapon that can empty a magazine in less than a second has a revelant burst DPS value in some cases or situations.

 

I don't think I redefine the term DPS. DPS does not mean, each second, you deal n damage. It's more precise. It means, over each second, you deal up to n damage. The difference is that the second option allows you to fire for durations that are not round numbers. If you fire for 1.7 second, you still have a DPS. If you fire for 0.5 second, it's the same, and the cool thing is that it's the same DPS in the two cases, and in all cases. It's because the burst DPS is a rate, as Darzk already explained. It does not matter how long the weapon can fire, or how long you'll fire. It's a fixed rate. It does not mean, you'll deal this damage. It means, you'll deal this damage * duration of firing, which can be less than a second. If you have a 1000 DPS and fire for 0.5 second, you'll deal approximately 500 damage. If you have a 1000 DPS and fire for 1.7 seconds, you'll deal approximately 1700 damage, assuming we are speaking of the burst DPS.

 

A good example to explain is to use the sustained DPS, whereof no one talks about. Imo this is a value that can cause more misunderstandings than the others. Most of the time, you'll have a higher sustained DPS than the value displayed in the builder. In fact, if you don't stop firing after a reload, you'll have a higher value. This is because the DPS is a rate. It does not matter how long you fire or how long the weapon can fire. It's based on an infinite basis, in this case with the sustained DPS, an infinite loop of fire + reload. This is the same for the burst DPS, but it's only an infinite loop of firing. And because this is infinite, you can extract a value based on whatever time unit you want, which is a second here. This is also why, most of the time, the DPS values are made to be compared to each other and should not be taken as peremptory values, and this is true for a lot of games.

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